Buying/selling Medals Superthread [merged]

[PMedMoe]

The medal detector: Ottawa collector hunts down rare decorations then gives them to museums
Article Link

OTTAWA — People who sell military medals are the “scum of the earth,” says Nova Scotia MP Peter Stoffer.

But Stoffer doesn’t feel that way at all about Andrew Cadzow, a 32-year-old Ottawa “medal detector” who dips deeply into his own modest income to buy medals at auction, then donates them to military museums.

Stoffer, a New Democrat, has been campaigning for a decade to outlaw the sale of military honours.

“Medals are presented to people who dedicate their lives to the country,” he says. “That’s not currency they have on their chest. I don’t believe they should be turned into money.”

But collectors like Cadzow, who buy medals and give them to museums, “they’re the salt of the earth,” Stoffer says admiringly. “Two thumbs up for that gentleman.”

Since he started acquiring medals a couple of years ago, Cadzow — a freelance audio-visual technician who, among other things, triggers the deafening “goal horn” at Ottawa Senators’ games — has purchased more than three dozen from auction houses and on eBay.

More on link

 

[George Wallace]

Having worked a bit in the Museum field, I wonder if Mr Stoffer has ever made a donation to one of these fine institutions?  If he has, did he read the donation form at all?  The majority of museums are limited in space, both for display and for storage.  As such, and the fact that some donations do not fit into their mandates, the donation form will usually have a clause that the museum can display, store, trade or dispose of the artefact as it see fit.  Usually the trading and disposal of artefacts will be a decision made by the Museum Board of Governors.  Artefacts held by museums will have little significance at times if they have no “history (story behind them)” or their ‘providence’ doesn’t have some significant history.  So, the following may be an example:  If a museum has fifty Canadian Forces Decorations in its collection, it may decide to get rid of some.

 

[40below]

Once a medal is presented, it is no longer property of the government but it belongs to an individual who may do with it as he/she sees fit, except in rare circumstances where the government either forbids export (VC) or sale (OC) of the decoration.

As George points out, the storage rooms of even small regimental museums are swimming in common decorations donated by well-meaning families and veterans that have little historical or even regimental interest. Banning the sale of them will only ensure that the only thing families can do if they no longer want them is donate even more of them to a museum that neither wants or needs them or have them melted down.

 

[Michael OLeary]

Is it OK to collect Nazi memorabilia?

A row has blown up over an officer at a human rights group that monitors Israel. He is accused of collecting "Nazi memorabilia". But is it unacceptable to collect material from the Third Reich?

OK, let me see if I have this straight from the media presentations on the whole subject.

It's bad to collect medals of Canadian soldiers because it dishonours them.

It's bad to collect German stuff because it might be construed as honouring or admiring them.

Damn, this is confusing.  ???

Guess I'll just sick with being branded "Scum" for collecting Canadian medals, and continue to bring their stories back to the Regiment's knowledge.

 

[The Bread Guy]

Is it OK to collect Nazi memorabilia?
(....)
It's bad to collect German stuff because it might be construed as honouring or admiring them.

More specifically, it's bad to collect German stuff because it might suggest you have a bias against Israel in your day job as a human rights monitor/analyst.

On the original thread issue, the MP is out of line with his remarks, painting with a pretty broad brush - maybe there are other trees up which the Member can bark?

 

[The Bread Guy]

Reviving necrothread with yet another try by the MP in question....

"Peter Stoffer to Re-introduce Bill To Restrict Sale of Veterans' Medals"

The recent auction of a World War II allied veterans’ medals shows why the federal government should step up and restrict the sale of veterans’ medals says Peter Stoffer (Sackville—Eastern Shore), the New Democrat’s Official Opposition Veterans Affairs Critic. 

“I am angered that the medals of a WWII allied veteran, who fought at the Battle of Monte Cassino, have ended up at an auction for sale to the highest bidder,” said Stoffer.  “Veterans’ medals should not be sold for profit at auctions, flea markets, on Ebay, or anywhere else,” said Stoffer. “It really cheapens the significance and meaning of these medals when someone profits from their sale.”

“These are the medals of our heroes and they should be proudly displayed at someone’s home, at a museum, or legion hall. They should not be displayed or sold for profit. I urge the federal government to act now and restrict the sale of veterans’ medals.”

Stoffer will re-introduce a bill in the House of Commons that would prohibit the sale of veterans’ and police medals. He noted that a Conservative MP introduced a bill in the last parliamentary session that would protect military medals with cultural significance from leaving the country.

“I urge the federal government to move quickly to restrict the sale of war medals for financial profit.”

 

[aesop081]

Humm.....'scuse me....Mr Stoffer.....

“These are the medals of our heroes and they should be proudly displayed at someone’s home, at a museum, or legion hall. They should not be displayed or sold for profit. I urge the federal government to act now and restrict the sale of veterans’ medals.”

I am "someone" and i do have a "home" so why should i not be allowed to buy medals at auctions for display in my private "little museum of all things military" i seem to have going on here. I invite people over regularly, they get to see all this stuff...........

 

[Journeyman]

Peter Stoffer -- the Right Honourable One-trick Pony.

Are any veterans or serving members pushing for this, or does it just appeal to some vague nationalist sentiment? For someone not born in Canada, and without a day's military service (that I could find), he's sure become repetitive on this non-issue.

 

[jollyjacktar]

If, his intent is to prevent the overseas purchase of Canadian medal sets in a similar vein as the US ( and I think that is what he wants to accomplish ), I am not necessarily opposed to the idea in principal. 

But, this is a thorny issue as well.  Your or your ancestors medals are of course your property and you should be able to divest yourself of them is you need/want to.  Where the US IIRC want to protect their heritage is the thought of any MOH going out of the country to foreign private ownership.  I would be saddened to see any Canadian VC leave the country for much the same reasons as they are an important part of our military heritage.  If there could be a standard program put in place for the CWM to purchase (if need be) at FMV any medal sets of historical importance were they to come on the market or at least have right of first refusal.  This might be more of what Mr. Stoffer is intending, in principal.

 

[Journeyman]

This might be more of what Mr. Stoffer is intending, in principal.

Legislation shouldn't be tabled with a requirement to figure "what he really meant."

If he can't clearly enunciate his thoughts, he really shouldn't be formulating more unnecessary laws for this country, let alone representing his constituents.....but then, the NDP have outshone themselves with this current slate.

 

[Michael OLeary]

Before this can be discussed as anything other than an emotional issue, there are a few pieces of information I'd like to see made public. For example:

1.  How many medals (ie., single or groups to individual Canadians) are held by the Canadian War Museum and other national museums?

2.  Where are these catalogued and is the information openly available to Canadians that are interested in knowing which pieces of this important cultural heritage are being kept safe for us? (I.e., without requiring special requests for information or guessing who and how to ask.)

2.  How many of these medals are currently on display?

3.  How often will each of the other medals be placed on display for the average Canadian to view them?

4.  How many of these medals have never been on display anywhere, and for which there is no plan to display them publicly?

Let's establish exactly what happens after all the medals are donated to museums or forced into some sort of black market economy to determine if we are somehow suddenly "better off" because of this proposed piece of legislation.

 

[a_majoor]

On another practical note, if a verteran should decide to leave Canada, does this mean he is not allowed to take his medals with him? How would you prevent someone from disposing of their medals to (say) a foreign museum or collector if they are now residents of the United States or the Dominican Republic, for example?

 

[Michael OLeary]

Reminiscent of the $7400 Victory medal awarded to Percy Fenton, a sale brokered by the media antics of Dave Thomson (i.e., the self-proclaimed medal detector), another implausible medal deal is being brought to light.

This time, he's trying to get $15,000 for two medals attributed to Regina native Edward Lyman "Hick" Abbott.

Bid to take Reginan's valour off the market
Ontario man aims to raise $15,000 for war medals

STORY

The catch: the rational assessment of value falls far short of $15K. See this thread at the CEF Study Group for a detailed discussion: Another medal rescue. In partucular this post by member mons14:

All this group really is, is a named single BWM - missing the Victory, Memorial Plaque and Cross. (The MC if of course an unnamed medal). A cost breakdown should look something like this:

MC - $800 - 1000 CDN
The Bar - $300 - 350 CDN
BWM - $500 range CDN

We can add a $500 - 1000 premium for historic value of the man, and the matter of the Vimy Ridge award.

I would guess based on above that a realistic market value in auction should have us at approx: 2500 - 2800 CDN - and that's at the very, very high end. (In a real medals auction, like at DNW or otherwise, you would be lucky to get as high as that.)

However at the end of the day it will come down to how badly someone wants the group...but keep in mind this is really about a single NAMED BWM, missing the rest of the named medals.

The Victory medal could very well appear on the market a year from now with another MC and Bar....now there's two groups! This kind of thing has happened before.

But these medals (an incomplete group) aren't being auctioned to determine the market value, now Thomson wants to set the value he expects to see a Museum or other group pay.

 

[dogger1936]

I've been thinking of selling off my small set. fmr yugo, peacekeeper, afgan with multi roto bar, CD, and sacrifice medal. What kind of price could I get for those?

Any place besides ebay anyone suggest?

 

[Fishbone Jones]

If your talking miniatures, I'd say they were worth the replacement value. Anyone could order the same ones and have the same set for what it cost to purchase them from a vendor.

:2c:

 

[Stoker]

Found this on ebay and the member is current serving, I have contacted the member and was informed it was stolen. The MP's have been contacted as this may be a case of stolen property.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/CANADIAN-OPERATIONAL-SERVICE-EXPEDITION-MEDAL-to-JONES-HMCS-DONNACONA-/251783912463?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_2&hash=item3a9f7d9c0f

 

[jollyjacktar]

Well, it is Jones' property to sell or give away if he so desires. 

 

[Stoker]

Well, it is Jones' property to sell or give away if he so desires.

Actually I don't think it is, I believe their is a rule saying you are not allowed to sell it while serving.  He claims it was stolen last year, i'll report it to the MP's and let them deal with it

 

[Nfld Sapper]

MPRR in the ebay link shows member is release....or am I reading it wrong?

 

[Stoker]

MPRR in the ebay link shows member is release....or am I reading it wrong?

Its an old one, the member is indeed still in.