Buying/selling Medals Superthread [merged]

[IN HOC SIGNO]

Or not wanting to remember,and putting that piece of your life behind you.

My grandfather was overseas for near 4 years during WW2 and came home with no medals uniform anything.Proably in a ditch somewhere.

I inherited both my Grandfather's WW1 medals. they received them in the mail after the war and they were both in their original boxes, unmounted and in great shape. They never talked about it and never even looked at the medals after they got them....my mother gave them to me after my Dad died and she was trying to downsize. I mounted them and put them in a shadow boxe with their pictures and regimental history. They just wanted to forget in their life times.

 

[Reccesoldier]

I inherited both my Grandfather's WW1 medals. they received them in the mail after the war and they were both in their original boxes, unmounted and in great shape. They never talked about it and never even looked at the medals after they got them....my mother gave them to me after my Dad died and she was trying to downsize. I mounted them and put them in a shadow boxe with their pictures and regimental history. They just wanted to forget in their life times.

Ironic isn't it that they spent their lives trying to forget what they wanted us to remember. 

 

[IN HOC SIGNO]

Ironic isn't it that they spent their lives trying to forget what they wanted us to remember. 

Indeed. they lived through the horrors of trench warfare, mustard gas attacks and huge artillery barrages. They were British Army conscripts; one was a Sapper and the other Infantry.....they were treated as canon fodder by the British aristocratic leadership. they saw a lot of their mates sacrificed in futile "over the top" assaults into withering machine gun fire and brutal artillery barrages...not to mention those who perished of disease in the trenches. I imagine witnessing such senseless slaughter would leave a bitter taste in one's mouth.
I think the slogan of "Lest we Forget" was borne of the sense that they never wanted to see such flagrant waste of human life again.

 

[Edward Campbell]

Indeed. they lived through the horrors of trench warfare, mustard gas attacks and huge artillery barrages. They were British Army conscripts; one was a Sapper and the other Infantry.....they were treated as canon fodder by the British aristocratic leadership. they saw a lot of their mates sacrificed in futile "over the top" assaults into withering machine gun fire and brutal artillery barrages...not to mention those who perished of disease in the trenches. I imagine witnessing such senseless slaughter would leave a bitter taste in one's mouth.
I think the slogan of "Lest we Forget" was borne of the sense that they never wanted to see such flagrant waste of human life again.

We're drifing off topic, but:

The phrase "Lest we forget" is from Rudyard Kipling's Recessional

Recessional

God of our fathers, known of old--
  Lord of our far-flung battle line
Beneath whose awful hand we hold
  Dominion over palm and pine--
Lord God of Hosts, be with us yet,
Lest we forget - lest we forget!

The tumult and the shouting dies;
  The captains and the kings depart:
Still stands Thine ancient sacrifice,
  An humble and a contrite heart.
Lord God of Hosts, be with us yet,
Lest we forget - lest we forget!

Far-called, our navies melt away;
  On dune and headland sinks the fire:
Lo, all our pomp of yesterday
  Is one with Nineveh and Tyre!
Judge of the Nations, spare us yet,
Lest we forget - lest we forget!

If, drunk with sight of power, we loose
  Wild tongues that have not Thee in awe--
Such boasting as the Gentiles use
  Or lesser breeds without the law--
Lord God of Hosts, be with us yet,
Lest we forget - lest we forget!

For heathen heart that puts her trust
  In reeking tube and iron shard--
All valiant dust that builds on dust,
  And guarding, calls not Thee to guard--
For frantic boast and foolish word,
Thy mercy on Thy people, Lord!

Rudyard Kipling
1897 - Composed for Queen Victoria's Diamond Jubilee

 

[IN HOC SIGNO]

ER...yes I know the hymn well...and love it. I was referring to the fact that the Great War cenotaphs all seemed to coin this phrase/ quote and of course our Legions too adopted the phrase. I was always told by the old vets that the phrase was particularily meaningful to them because they didn't want people to forget either their comrades or the conditions under which they perished.

 

[redleafjumper]

While this discussion has drifted away from the topic, it might be useful to mention that Kipling's words adorn a great deal of remembrance material.  His son was killed in the First World War while serving with the Irish Guards.  Young Lt. John Kipling's body was never found in his father's lifetime despite an exhaustive search.  Lt. Kipling's body was located in 1992 and he is now buried  in plot VII  D. 2 of ST. MARY'S A.D.S. CEMETERY, HAISNES. 

The senior Kipling was heavily involved in the Commonwealth War Graves Commission and he was responsible for many of the standard cenotaph quotations as well as the standard stone altar phrase in the larger cemeteries of "Their Name Liveth for Evermore".  His "Lest We Forget" from the aforementioned poem was quickly adopted as part of the ritual in the Act of Remembrance of the British Empire Ex-Services League  which later became in this country the Royal Canadian Legion.  His epitaphs are also quite touching:

Two Canadian Memorials
1
We giving all gained all.
Neither lament us nor praise.
Only in all things recall,
It is fear, not death that slays.

2
From little towns in a far land we came,
To save our honour and a world aflame.
By little towns in a far land we sleep;
And trust that world we won for you to keep


It is important to remember, and those many small collections of medals help to do just that.

 

[IN HOC SIGNO]

While this discussion has drifted away from the topic, it might be useful to mention that Kipling's words adorn a great deal of remembrance material.  His son was killed in the First World War while serving with the Irish Guards.  Young Lt. John Kipling's body was never found in his father's lifetime despite an exhaustive search.  Lt. Kipling's body was located in 1992 and he is now buried  in plot VII  D. 2 of ST. MARY'S A.D.S. CEMETERY, HAISNES. 

The senior Kipling was heavily involved in the Commonwealth War Graves Commission and he was responsible for many of the standard cenotaph quotations as well as the standard stone altar phrase in the larger cemeteries of "Their Name Liveth for Evermore".  His "Lest We Forget" from the aforementioned poem was quickly adopted as part of the ritual in the Act of Remembrance of the British Empire Ex-Services League  which later became in this country the Royal Canadian Legion.   His epitaphs are also quite touching:

Two Canadian Memorials
1
We giving all gained all.
Neither lament us nor praise.
Only in all things recall,
It is fear, not death that slays.

2
From little towns in a far land we came,
To save our honour and a world aflame.
By little towns in a far land we sleep;
And trust that world we won for you to keep


It is important to remember, and those many small collections of medals help to do just that.

Thank you this is excellent stuff. I didn't realize Kipling was so involved with the War Graves Commission...this explains a lot.

 

[TCBF]

.....they were treated as canon fodder by the British aristocratic leadership. ...

- That's a bit harsh, wot?

 

[IN HOC SIGNO]

- That's a bit harsh, wot?

No I don't think so.

 

[Old Sweat]

IHS

Regardless of social status, senior officers of all ranks had to make decisions that caused a terrible toll in human lives and suffering. To suggest that they were not aware of the consequences and did not carry a terible burden is going too far.

War is a brutal, rotten business. Once engaged, however, one should not pull the punches or look for an exit strategy.

 

[Curious Boy]

This discussion is very enlightening professionally as I live in the military museum world.  I, as a citizen, have a few comments regarding MP Stoffer's bill to limit the sale of medals and decorations.
a] government participation in the legitimate use, sale, donation, destruction or disposal of private property that is harmless to the owner and the community is blatant and intolerable interference.  Invasive breaches in the foundations of democracy are created in the name of ' for the good of all,' which starts with small issues typically voiced as "That bugs me . . . there ought to be a law."
b]the costs of enforcing the unenforceable saps our national economy and moral distracting us from creating a viable future.

As an worker in cultural resource management I have this to say.  Museums today require more than moral support.  They need quality volunteers to participate in the work of preserving and interpreting our history.  Several references in this thread allude to the proverbial, and sometimes ashamedly real, dusty and forgotten areas of museum storage where artefacts and their stories are abandoned.  The Internet opens the way for improved access to collections and a resurrection of these stories that may not be physically interpreted within the confines of a gallery.  Collectors and curators have similar motivations, tools, objectives and audiences.  We both measure the value of an artefact against a criteria which includes its provenance or story.  It has been stated here that the value of the medal(s) are not as important culturally or financially as the interpretation of the stories about them.  As an exhibitor, educator, writer, these stories are what give substance to our museum's mission statements.  Our collections policy requires me to ask specific questions of the donor, and the item to see if the donation is compatible with our mission.  Many people think that museums are there as repositories of whatever they deem to be valuable, an unwittingly forces us to thin our resources to accomadate them.  Every artefact and archival item requires specific storage, handling, exhibiting, transporting , etc., considerations.  These issues are not make work procedures, but proven techniques that balance the best interests of the artefact, the audience, the institution, etc., for perpetuity.  Museum staff and volunteers take their duty as serious as serving members do and aspire to do the right thing for the right reasons.

Back to the medals.  I often encounter people wishing to donate medals, especially in the course of their chore of settling an elders estate.  I've heard the sentiments expressed in this thread, that " dad, or uncle, didn't talk about the war.  I asked him once as a kid and he told me some story, but never anything deep.  We found his medals in his drawer.  I never saw him wear his medals."  I feel for them.  I have come to understand why the vet never communicated more and why they filed it away.  I also know that when they are gone, their contribution lives on in our communities, our society.  This job illuminates the blessing we all enjoy and I am challenged in my task to interpret this heritage to our youth. So, to those donors who say there is no one in the family interested in the medals, I say "try harder!"  For reasonable cost they could assemble a portrait of the vet, some insignia, reseach and write a summary caption and mount it all in a shadow box for display in the family home during Veterans' Week in November, and maybe other holidays, like Canada Day and Thanksgiving.  This achieves several important things.  It shows family leadership.  It demonstrate gratitude to the youth in the family.  It exemplifies the values of Remembrance.  It puts a face to the words 'those who served, those who died' and the symbols found on our memorials.

I am sorry if some find this comment lengthy.  I studied this thread over many months and its themes resonate strongly with me.  As a newbie to this social net I beg your patience.  As my nickname implies, I strive to ask and learn and I can think of few sectors of society to learn from than the examples set by our vets and serving members.  Thanks.

 

[Blackadder1916]

I'll resurrect this thread for this story as it does mention the MP of the topic title and continues the theme of many (out there) who feel that medals shouldn't be sold on the open market contrary to the opinion of many (in here) who feel that collectors often celebrate the history of what these items represent when the family of the recipient of the medal fails to do so or loses track.

Possible medal sale irks legion

By AMY SMITH Staff Reporter The Chronicle Herald  Sun. Sep 21 - 5:41 AM

The president of the Waverley legion says there is no way military medals are going to be sold there today.

A posting on the Internet classified ad site kijiji.ca, called Military Medals for Sale, is promoting the sale of various medals, including Memorial Crosses and a First World War medal given to a black soldier.

"Remember this Sunday at Waverley Legion Militaria Show from 9 to 1," the ad says.

But legion president Jim MacLeod said he had no knowledge of such a sale and was going to contact the show’s organizer Saturday night to make sure it doesn’t go ahead.

"I am going to tell him it’s a no-no," Mr. MacLeod said in a telephone interview Saturday afternoon. "We’ve never had them before. That’s not what we’re there for."

Mr. MacLeod said he was very disappointed.

"I don’t see where they should be selling them," he said. "Somebody earned them, and then to find that (someone is) just flogging them all around. . . . There’s guys that don’t care, as long as they get their hands on them."

The advertised sale of the medals was spotted by Dave Thomson, an online military-medal hunter from St. George, Ont. He said he has been able to return 160 groups of medals to families, museums and other groups over the years, including 52 Memorial Crosses.

Mr. Thomson said it was "galling" that someone would try to sell medals in a legion and added that he’s had several calls and e-mails from people upset about it.

"It’s not sitting well with some of your fellow Nova Scotians," he said.

One of those people is MP Peter Stoffer (Sackville-Eastern Shore), veterans affairs critic for the New Democrats.

Mr. Stoffer, who has introduced a private member’s bill to ban the sale of military medals, said he thinks those who sell them for profit are "not what I would call the highest form of humanity."

"Those medals are given to people in act of courage and remembrance, especially for those who never got a change to wear theirs because they died, also (for) service, duty, honour," he said.

Andrew Moss, the show’s organizer, could not be reached for comment. A woman who answered the telephone at his home said he was travelling and wouldn’t be home until late Saturday.

 

[Michael OLeary]

I just thought I would reopen this thread to share my latest "scum-of-the-earth-profiteering" collecting exploit.

In May 2007, I purchased a single Victory Medal to a soldier of The Royal Canadian Regiment.  Medals to The RCR don't come on the collector's market very often and they are relatively highly sought after.  This leads to minor bidding wars and an expected premium price (although a few other units can sell for more on a regular basis).

The Victory Medal was being sold on eBay by a very well respected Canadian dealer who was known for bringing many Canadian medals back to Canada from auctions in the UK. Victory Medals to "less collectible" (i.e, a better balance between supply and demand) can sell for anywhere in a $40-70 range. The same medal to an RCR soldier can usually be found in the $60-100 range of pricing. Against the competition for the auction, I ended up winning.  With the necessary taxes and shipping included, my costs for that single medal were $133.

And I knew the soldier's British War Medal might still be out there, if it didn't land in a silver smelter's pot in the dirty thirties or during the silver boom of the 70s. when the scrap value of these medals for a while exceeded their market value as collectibles.

And so a single VM entered my collection.  As I did with each such acquisition, I sent away for a complete copy of the soldier's First World War service record from Library and Archives Canada.  34 pages of records were received, at a cost of $18.81

Last week, an RCR British War Medal appeared on e-Bay, for a price ($154.89 Cdn) that was high even when considering that medals to the Regiment often sell at a premium. I'd flagged the auction, but passed it over a few times, thinking "who's going to pay that for a single BWM."  An upper price of $100 for a single BWM to The RCR would have been more reasonable.

After a few days (it was a 30-day listing), I decided to look up the man and, at least, add him to my notes on regimental medals. As soon as I started typing his regimental number I had an odd feeling. Reaching into the file boxes under the desk I found out why it seemed familiar. I'd bought the man's Victory Medal in early 2007.

Well, now I knew who was going to pay well over market value for a single BWM to a late war enlistment. After paying the necessary shipping costs, my credit card was charged $166.21.

And so, another Royal Canadian's widely separated medals are being rejoined, by a collector.  All this, for a cost of $318.02 (so far, well see if I have to pay Duty to get it into Canada from the US). Not bad for a pair of medals that might sell for a maximum of $200, eh?

I'd never make a profit on this pair of medals, even if i decided to sell them.  But the cost is nothing compared to the opportunity to reunite these medals after however many years they have been separated.

A quick check of his service record shows that the soldier "proceeded overseas for service with The RCR" on 30 Oct 1918. He left the Canadian Corps Reinforcement Camp (CCRC) on 8 November and is recorded as joining the unit on 13 Nov 1918. Possibly one of the last men eligible for the Victory Medal in the unit. (His date of service for entering the Theatre of War is given as 30 Oct.)

And so, all this for a man who didn't even get to the front line trenches before the Armistice.  And yet, he too deserves to be remembered and honoured, even if his own family has decided not to do so. As a collector, I have willingly paid for the privilege to do it as a member of his regimental family.

 

[George Wallace]

It really is a shame that someone has broken up a set.  Hopefully, it wasn't someone who figured that they could collect more if they sold parts off piecemeal, not realizing that a complete set would bring in more money.  These are not the acts of a 'true' collector. 

Good work on your part Michael.

 

[Michael OLeary]

It really is a shame that some nutjob has broken up a set.  Hopefully, it wasn't someone who figured that they could collect more if they sold parts off piecemeal, not realizing that a complete set would bring in more money. 

Good work on your part Michael.

Thanks George.

Broken groups are quite common and not always, perhaps even seldom, originally for nefarious purposes.  Families, in particular, may see a father's or grandfather's medal group as a special (but not necessarily cohesive) group of personal memorabilia.  Breaking up the group by the surviving family members gives a number of children or other relatives a special reminder of the soldier and a keepsake. In such a form they may have greater collective personal value to family members, and the "market value" of the medal group is seldom a factor in such cases.  Once a medal group has been broken in this fashion, the mobility of family members, and differing opinions on the further retention of each medal by successive generations means they may find their way to the market widely dispersed in time and location.

I also recently reunited two medals to another soldier, returning his British War Medal to rest beside his 1914-15 Star.  He's still got two other medals out there somewhere and I believe they all went to family as described above.  The Star was with his brother's medals (and  represented the one First World War medal the brother himself didn't receive). The BWM was accompanied by regimental sports awards.  In each case, they must have been kept by people who understood the significance of these items and their relationships within each small groups of items.

With luck, one day, I'll complete the second brother's set of medals.

 

[George Wallace]

Yes.  I agree that it is not always a nefarious or malicious act, and often done by the family or even the member themself.  I can not fault them for whatever reason that they may do so.  It usually is out of ignorance or desperation or an attempt to give survivors an 'equal' share in those awards.

I was in the frame of mind when posting the previous post, where I was thinking of brokers/dealers/speculators who dealt in memorabilia for pure profit.  I am sorry, that my blanket statement was made to overlook the often innocent actions of members and family.

I am of the opinion that honest collectors, who strive to preserve our military heritage are acting in the interests of us all in bringing these awards together, and preserving them in a fashion that will keep them safe for the future.

 

[Michael OLeary]

And yet, he too deserves to be remembered and honoured, ....

 

[The Bread Guy]

Here's the last bit of discussion on this one - didn't think I should revive a necropost that old, mods, but feel free to merge if you see fit.

For fair use and research purposes only....

NDP want sale of war medals outlawed
The Canadian Press, 30 Apr 09
Article link

OTTAWA - The federal NDP want Ottawa to ban the sale of all war medals, saying the heroics of Canadian soldiers and police officers don't belong on the auction block.

Nova Scotia New Democrat Peter Stoffer, the party's veterans affairs critic, is upset about the pending sale of a Victoria Cross awarded to a First World War soldier.

Robert Shankland was one of three soldiers who all lived on the same street in Winnipeg and who all won Commonwealth's highest decoration for military valour.

The city renamed the street Valour Road.

His medals are expected to be auctioned off privately very soon and Veterans Affairs Minister Greg Thompson has already said that the federal government will not allow them to leave the country.

Stoffer, who has lobbied for 10 years to ban the sale of war medals, says the federal government must go further and simply halt such sales.

 

[Michael OLeary]

No doubt the Government will be all over this issue as soon as they have guns sorted out.    :

I am a collector of medals and badges to my own regiment, in which I have also served for over 25 years. So many of these medals came to the market because they had lost their families, either through the lack of heirs, or through lack of interest. In my opinion, the saving grace is that someone at least decided to see them into the hands of an auctioneer or collector, else so many would be gone forever. If there was broad interest in society for the history, the soldiers and their medals we would see fewer medals on the market, and much stronger groups and methods supporting those who seek to restore medals to the families. For the medals I collect, the soldiers' families may no longer be in the picture, but their regimental family is. I am working to bring their stories back to the Regiment. For now, I am their family.

This private member's bill seems to crop up annually. It is one man's opinion bolstered up by uninformed emotional support.  I have yet to see any credible (or incredible) plan for how it would be put into effect, without that its best description is "silly". 

If the bill was passed what, exactly, would be the outcome?  What would be the true value to Canada and Canadians once the War Museum has a couple of sea containers full of medals in storage that would never see the light of day again.  How is that a better end result than the status quo?

 

[Colin Parkinson]

If the veteran or their family needs the money, they are not allowed to sell their own goods? Such a nice socialist utopia we would live in, but of course the NDP has never been big on private property rights. How about we support the bill, but the government must buy the medal back at 15% above market value and the money must come from a social program.