The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0

[Jarnhamar]

We still haven't heard exactly what firearm was used in Fredericton, either.  That was 18 months ago.  So a delay of a day or two in Alberta is not unexpected.

A picture of the gun the shooter used a few days ago was released almost immediately, as was the information that the gun was non restricted and legally owned.

 

[NavyShooter]

The Fredericton shooting was apparently a Norinco M-305 (M-14 clone).

 

[ballz]

I can't say this is perfect but have been trying to be less ideological, or at least test what my principles would have me hypothesize against whether the data actually corroborates or proves otherwise. In any case, I did some data searching on Google for homicide rates, civilian firearm ownership rates, etc. There are 54 countries included included in this... the graph is on sheet 1 and the data is on sheet 2, the data highlighted is what is used to create the chart, the rest was just me working to that point.

The line of best fit certainly appears to indicate there is no correlation between civilian firearm ownership and homicide. I know that's what I already thought and probably what a lot of people here thought, but I thought running the numbers would be a good exercise for myself.

EDIT: Some of my friends have been interested so I've gotten a little better at Excel, adding data labels, etc.

 

[Infanteer]

The best read I've seen on this is "The Dark Side of Man."  It looks at male violence in Rape, Homicide, War, and Genocide and looks heavily into why different societies or sub-societies are more violent than others.  Guns are a symptom, not a root problem.

 

[Eaglelord17]

I can't say this is perfect but have been trying to be less ideological, or at least test what my principles would have me hypothesize against whether the data actually corroborates or proves otherwise. In any case, I did some data searching on Google for homicide rates, civilian firearm ownership rates, etc. There are 54 countries included included in this... the graph is on sheet 1 and the data is on sheet 2, the data highlighted is what is used to create the chart, the rest was just me working to that point.

The line of best fit certainly appears to indicate there is no correlation between civilian firearm ownership and homicide. I know that's what I already thought and probably what a lot of people here thought, but I thought running the numbers would be a good exercise for myself.

I personally have looked at homicide rates of many countries, what their gun controls are, and if there was any difference after tightening or loosening the laws. My conclusion is gun control really doesn't have a effect one way or another. The UK the violent crime rate went up after the bans were enacted, in Canada rates continued downward on the same trend they have been on for decades.

Guns don't change someone's mindset, they aren't a drug. If someone wants to kill you, they want to kill you whether or not they own a gun or not.

I do believe in small controls such as requiring a licence (but it should never expire) that has a background check to verify you aren't a criminal, registering handguns and full autos (to prevent straw buying), but otherwise beyond that it really doesn't have much of a effect.

Up until 1978 we had looser firearms laws than the USA where we could still buy a full auto legally and it only be required to be registered. We never had the violence the States had. The answer isn't the fact that our laws were looser, rather we don't have the social-economic issues the USA has. Switzerland has some of the largest concentration of military rifles in the world, yet one of the lowest crime rates due to the fact the society doesn't have much poverty, drug abuse, and in general most people are very responsible/happy citizens.

One thing that is 100% verifiable is the tighter the gun control the more likely your country is going to turn into a dictatorship. I can't find a single example of a well armed populace that goes from democracy to dictatorship, but I can find plenty of examples that went from armed, to unarmed, to dictatorship. Easiest example in the last decade is in 2012 Venezuela banned firearm ownership, now they are a dictatorship where the people are starving and unable to receive aid because their country refuses to accept it.

 

[Haggis]

The Fredericton shooting was apparently a Norinco M-305 (M-14 clone).

I've done a number of searches and couldn't find that information.  Do you have a source?  PM if you like.

 

[MilEME09]

Related, RCMP confirm only one of the 4 guns can be traced to Canada. Logical assumption here is that said firearm is the one stolen off the slain RCMP officer. Other 3 are suspected to be from the US. Really puts a nail against gun control when it looks more like a border control issue.

https://thepostmillennial.com/nova-scotia-rcmp-shooter-used-semi-automatic-handguns-rifles-only-one-traces-back-to-canada/

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I personally have looked at homicide rates of many countries, what their gun controls are, and if there was any difference after tightening or loosening the laws. My conclusion is gun control really doesn't have a effect one way or another. The UK the violent crime rate went up after the bans were enacted, in Canada rates continued downward on the same trend they have been on for decades.

Guns don't change someone's mindset, they aren't a drug. If someone wants to kill you, they want to kill you whether or not they own a gun or not.

I do believe in small controls such as requiring a licence (but it should never expire) that has a background check to verify you aren't a criminal, registering handguns and full autos (to prevent straw buying), but otherwise beyond that it really doesn't have much of a effect.

Up until 1978 we had looser firearms laws than the USA where we could still buy a full auto legally and it only be required to be registered. We never had the violence the States had. The answer isn't the fact that our laws were looser, rather we don't have the social-economic issues the USA has. Switzerland has some of the largest concentration of military rifles in the world, yet one of the lowest crime rates due to the fact the society doesn't have much poverty, drug abuse, and in general most people are very responsible/happy citizens.

One thing that is 100% verifiable is the tighter the gun control the more likely your country is going to turn into a dictatorship. I can't find a single example of a well armed populace that goes from democracy to dictatorship, but I can find plenty of examples that went from armed, to unarmed, to dictatorship. Easiest example in the last decade is in 2012 Venezuela banned firearm ownership, now they are a dictatorship where the people are starving and unable to receive aid because their country refuses to accept it.

With 54% of the homicides confined to 2% of the counties. Same in Canada, with most of the homicides in urban area as a result of the drug trade. They know the problem, they know the players, but they are afraid to deal with it.

 

[ModlrMike]

Folks are missing the point. It's not about gun control, it's about people control.

 

[Fabius]

That is the 2nd most scary part of this whole agenda from the Liberal Party over the last 30 years.

The most scary part is that a wide swath of our citizens in Canada, a liberal democratic country, believe in and support the agenda.

 

[Haggis]

Related, RCMP confirm only one of the 4 guns can be traced to Canada. Logical assumption here is that said firearm is the one stolen off the slain RCMP officer. Other 3 are suspected to be from the US. Really puts a nail against gun control when it looks more like a border control issue.

https://thepostmillennial.com/nova-scotia-rcmp-shooter-used-semi-automatic-handguns-rifles-only-one-traces-back-to-canada/

CTV reported that he left his residence with four guns. Two semi-automatic handguns and two semi-automatic long guns. Cst. Stevenson's gun would have been a fifth.

 

[Halifax Tar]

With 54% of the homicides confined to 2% of the counties. Same in Canada, with most of the homicides in urban area as a result of the drug trade. They know the problem, they know the players, but they are afraid to deal with it.

I think the underlined portion hits the nail on the head and I am will to expand.  Firearm control is the low hanging fruit.  It’s much easier to enact and then lavish self-praise for holding up an election promise. 

On the other hand actually tackling and reversing socio economic issues and wage disparities that are the actual precursor to violent crime, take years and many more sheckles.  Meaning it’s allot harder to claim another completed electoral promise.  And in today’s era of instant gratification the slow methodical and accurate method will always get trumped by the fast, error prone and inaccurate.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Interesting article in the Halifax Examiner.
https://www.halifaxexaminer.ca/featured/he-was-a-psychopath/


The woman nicknamed "Boe" says she moved out of Portapique because of Nova Scotia shooter Gabriel Wortman. She alledges:

“He was a psychopath”
A former resident of Portapique says she called the RCMP to tell them the future gunman assaulted his domestic partner and that he had illegal weapons. The police took no action.

 

[ballz]

Anybody know if there is any data of RPAL holders published by province? RCMP seems to only publish total PAL holders and doesn't differentiate between RPAL and PAL from what I can find.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

and the poopfest continues

Virtue-Signalling Over Workplace Protection: Public Safety Minister Endangers Lives of Road Crews With OIC Firearm Prohibitions

The Minister of Public Safety is supposed to keep Canadians safe, not put their lives in danger, yet Bill Blair’s fatally flawed Order in Council immediately puts the lives of road construction crews and workers in other industries at risk.

Minister Blair’s OIC reclassifies all 8-gauge industrial guns as Prohibited firearms.

The bore of an 8-gauge industrial gun is 0.835 inches or 21.2 mm – outside the government’s 20mm maximum allowed.

These guns are specifically designed for use in the cement, lime, and ferro alloy industries, as well as for road construction crews to take down dangerous rocks and other hazards after blasting operations take place.

Winchester Industrial, a division of Winchester Firearms, manufactures two models of 8-gauge industrial shotguns to meet the needs of these industries:[ii]

The Ringblaster Industrial Tool, a heavy-duty shooting platform
The Western Industrial Tool, a portable alternative to the Ringblaster

Winchester Industrial Equipment was used in Canada for:
cleaning rotary kilns, waste incinerators, silo interiors, and
dropping dangerous outcroppings left behind by blasting during road construction and maintenance.

Not any more.

Now these industries must find a new way to clean these pieces of equipment, and road crews must find some other way of removing dangerous rock outcroppings left over from blasting operations.

The unintended consequences of Public Safety Minister Bill Blair’s incompetence continues to grow, as does the evidence the Liberal government didn’t talk to anyone before implementing SOR/2020-96 and their so-called “military style assault weapons” ban.


Sources:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/8_bore
[ii] https://winchesterindustrial.com/equipment.html

 

[MilEME09]

Interesting article in the Halifax Examiner.
https://www.halifaxexaminer.ca/featured/he-was-a-psychopath/


The woman nicknamed "Boe" says she moved out of Portapique because of Nova Scotia shooter Gabriel Wortman. She alledges:

https://thepostmillennial.com/ns-shooter-had-been-reported-to-police-for-domestic-abuse-and-illegal-firearms-years-earlier


It sounds like RCMP never followed up on the 2013 weapons complaint. Makes you wonder how many others aren't followed up on either. With all due respect to the RCMP, they have a lot of great people but it sounds more and more like they aren't handling gun laws as well as we thought.

 

[Eaglelord17]

https://thepostmillennial.com/ns-shooter-had-been-reported-to-police-for-domestic-abuse-and-illegal-firearms-years-earlier


It sounds like RCMP never followed up on the 2013 weapons complaint. Makes you wonder how many others aren't followed up on either. With all due respect to the RCMP, they have a lot of great people but it sounds more and more like they aren't handling gun laws as well as we thought.

I have only been pulled over by cops once when I had firearms. It was one of the most ignorant experiences of my life. Cops are sitting there attempting to lecture me on the 'law' and I was constantly having to correct there incorrect assertations. Remember ignorance of the law is no excuse for you as the citizen but cops who are paid to enforce the law aren't required to know it.

 

[MilEME09]

I have only been pulled over by cops once when I had firearms. It was one of the most ignorant experiences of my life. Cops are sitting there attempting to lecture me on the 'law' and I was constantly having to correct there incorrect assertations. Remember ignorance of the law is no excuse for you as the citizen but cops who are paid to enforce the law aren't required to know it.

So is this a problem with the laws? or do we have an enforcement issue? I do believe their are gaps in our current firearms laws that need to be addressed, however if their is no enforcement or a lack of knowledge on the part of the police it doesn't matter how good we make the laws.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

I've avoided weighing in on this for the most part but I'll just say this:

Violence is a cultural and social issue, firearms can be a tool but they aren't the real issue.

I personally think letting kids sit at home playing violent video games is far more dangerous than any firearm ever will be. Or how about the stupid gangbanger culture that promotes violence, misogyny and anti-authoritarianism?

Nobody is saying we should ban people playing GTA or listening to NWA.

We've got our priorities all backwards. We try and attack symptoms rather than the root cause of our problems.

 

[OldSolduer]

Interesting article in the Halifax Examiner.
https://www.halifaxexaminer.ca/featured/he-was-a-psychopath/


The woman nicknamed "Boe" says she moved out of Portapique because of Nova Scotia shooter Gabriel Wortman. She alledges:

I said at the beginning of this we would hear statements like that. These spree killers give of behavioral clues that are often ignored or excused.
"He was a quiet guy but a bit off" or things of that nature.
He had an interest in the RCMP that was over the top to the point of procuring uniforms and dressing up cars to look like RCMP cruisers. And he had help. Maybe it was unintentional but SOMEONE made those decals on the cars.