The Great Gun Control Debate- 2.0

[FJAG]

Well that was last modified 6 months ago, and it also conflicts with the news release that it links to:

https://www.canada.ca/en/public-safety-canada/news/2019/06/royal-assent-of-legislation-strengthening-gun-laws-to-keep-communities-safe.html

Like I said, I'd need a lawyer to explain exactly to me how parts of a bill can be in force and other parts not, when the bill as whole has received Royal Assent.... I will interrogate one tomorrow over a beer. I hope you are right (not that it will matter, I am sure the Liberals will make sure that part of the bill is in force before they leave), but I think it's wishful thinking.

On another note, what you linked me too seems crooked as all hell. Were the RCMP not ordered to destroy that data? My memory is foggy, did the courts grant an injunction to stop it from happening and the court case was still pending?

A piece of legislation has in it a "Coming into Force Provision" which details how and when elements of the bill come into force and effect. Most simply say "upon proclamation" but they can be very different and complex. Bill C-71's "Coming Into Force" provision reads as follows:

Coming into Force
Order in council
22 (1) Section 1, subsections 3(2) and 4(2) and sections 16 and 18 to 21 come into force on a day to be fixed by order of the Governor in Council.
Order in council
(2) Section 2 comes into force on a day to be fixed by order of the Governor in Council.
Order in council
(3) Subsection 4(3) and sections 6, 8 and 15 come into force on a day to be fixed by order of the Governor in Council.
Order in council
(4) Sections 5 and 9 to 11 and subsection 13(1) come into force on a day to be fixed by order of the Governor in Council.
Order in council
(5) Section 7, subsection 13(3) and section 14 come into force on a day to be fixed by order of the Governor in Council, but that day must not be before the day referred to in subsection (4).

The Bill itself is here if you wish to look at which provisions are which:

https://www.parl.ca/DocumentViewer/en/42-1/bill/C-71/royal-assent

The Order in Council search database is here: https://orders-in-council.canada.ca/index.php?lang=en

You can easily put in search criteria for recent dates and find the text of the orders in council made. I believe OiC 2020-0298 is the one of interest.

PC Number: 2020-0298

Date: 2020-05-01

Whereas the Governor in Council is not of the opinion that any thing prescribed to be a prohibited firearm or a prohibited device, in the Annexed Regulations, is reasonable for use in Canada for hunting or sporting purposes;

Therefore, Her Excellency the Governor General in Council, on the recommendation of the Minister of Justice, pursuant to the definitions “non-restricted firearm”, “prohibited device”, “prohibited firearm” and “restricted firearm” in subsection 84(1) of the Criminal Code and to subsection 117.15(1) of that Act, makes the annexed Regulations Amending the Regulations Prescribing Certain Firearms and Other Weapons, Components and Parts of Weapons, Accessories, Cartridge Magazines, Ammunition and Projectiles as Prohibited, Restricted or Non-Restricted.

Unfortunately the DoJ website for Regulations is only current to April 21st and therefore Regulation SOR/ 2020-0096 is not posted on it. (I think though that the Gazette copy is posted on this thread). This is the link to the Firearms Act which lists the regulations at the bottom and will eventually list the regulation that you are interested in. https://laws-lois.justice.gc.ca/eng/acts/F-11.6/

:cheers:

 

[Jarnhamar]

The Truth Matters - Bill Blair



RCMP prohibits first 12-Gauge Shotgun with 20mm Bore Law - CBSA Memorandum backs Firearms Lawyers on Shotgun Ban
The deadly evil weapon? An old Iver Johnson single-shot, fixed choke 12-gauge shotgun with a 2 3/4" chamber. That's right, a standard old farm gun.
http://web-extract.constantcontact.com/v1/social_annotation_v2?permalink_uri=https%3A%2F%2Fmyemail.constantcontact.com%2FFor-Immediate-Release---RCMP-Prohibits-first-12-Gauge-Shotgun-with-20mm-Bore-Law.html%3Fsoid%3D1124731702303%26aid%3D0kYJWd-2OU8&image_url=https%3A%2F%2Fmlsvc01-prod.s3.amazonaws.com%2Ff1ccb3fd501%2F4b135be3-ee53-458a-8029-947d3c8c05d2.jpg%3Fver%3D1582690646000

 

[MilEME09]

The Truth Matters - Bill Blair



RCMP prohibits first 12-Gauge Shotgun with 20mm Bore Law - CBSA Memorandum backs Firearms Lawyers on Shotgun Ban
The deadly evil weapon? An old Iver Johnson single-shot, fixed choke 12-gauge shotgun with a 2 3/4" chamber. That's right, a standard old farm gun.
http://web-extract.constantcontact.com/v1/social_annotation_v2?permalink_uri=https%3A%2F%2Fmyemail.constantcontact.com%2FFor-Immediate-Release---RCMP-Prohibits-first-12-Gauge-Shotgun-with-20mm-Bore-Law.html%3Fsoid%3D1124731702303%26aid%3D0kYJWd-2OU8&image_url=https%3A%2F%2Fmlsvc01-prod.s3.amazonaws.com%2Ff1ccb3fd501%2F4b135be3-ee53-458a-8029-947d3c8c05d2.jpg%3Fver%3D1582690646000

Hard for him to back pedal on this now. 55 rural Liberal MP's are now very worried about what happens next. Technically if they all jumped ship or crossed the floor, the cons could force the government to resign, and form a government then selves. Now I doubt it will happen but if 55 MPs crossed the floor to the cons suddenly the CPC would have a majority.

 

[Kat Stevens]

The Truth Matters - Bill Blair



RCMP prohibits first 12-Gauge Shotgun with 20mm Bore Law - CBSA Memorandum backs Firearms Lawyers on Shotgun Ban
The deadly evil weapon? An old Iver Johnson single-shot, fixed choke 12-gauge shotgun with a 2 3/4" chamber. That's right, a standard old farm gun.
http://web-extract.constantcontact.com/v1/social_annotation_v2?permalink_uri=https%3A%2F%2Fmyemail.constantcontact.com%2FFor-Immediate-Release---RCMP-Prohibits-first-12-Gauge-Shotgun-with-20mm-Bore-Law.html%3Fsoid%3D1124731702303%26aid%3D0kYJWd-2OU8&image_url=https%3A%2F%2Fmlsvc01-prod.s3.amazonaws.com%2Ff1ccb3fd501%2F4b135be3-ee53-458a-8029-947d3c8c05d2.jpg%3Fver%3D1582690646000

You said "farm". That's where contemptibles live. F**k those guys.

 

[Haggis]

Were the RCMP not ordered to destroy that data? My memory is foggy, did the courts grant an injunction to stop it from happening and the court case was still pending?

When the Harper government was scrapping the registry, Québec obtained an injunction to preserve data on registered firearms in that province.  They lost, and the data was to have been destroyed in 2015...... however.... we had an election and the Liberals won so maybe the data was never actually destroyed.

Under Bill C-71, that "destroyed" data was returned to Québec and incorporated into their new registry. However, tens of thousands of legal long guns were bought, sold, traded, gifted,  exported, lost or destroyed in the years in between. 

 

[MilEME09]

When the Harper government was scrapping the registry, Québec obtained an injunction to preserve data on registered firearms in that province.  They lost, and the data was to have been destroyed in 2015...... however.... we had an election and the Liberals won so maybe the data was never actually destroyed.

Under Bill C-71, that "destroyed" data was returned to Québec and incorporated into their new registry. However, tens of thousands of legal long guns were bought, sold, traded, gifted,  exported, lost or destroyed in the years in between.

I feel like a ATI request should go in to see if the rest of those documents were actually destroyed

 

[Jarnhamar]

In the aftermath of the high river stuff I thought it came to light that the RCMP didn't actually destroy the information (which explained why they searched houses multiple times for firearms).

 

[MilEME09]

In the aftermath of the high river stuff I thought it came to light that the RCMP didn't actually destroy the information (which explained why they searched houses multiple times for firearms).

Yeah, and I remember one CAF member telling me about it, RCMP enlisted our help for transport, tossed them all on an HL, never to be seen again. They were getting tired from kicking in doors, at one point this soldier kicked a door in for them as in his words he had to "hold the officers purse for him", Grey area as to whether he should of done it. Regardless RCMP have been seen as corrupt on gun issues, I feel like the only way to settle this once and for all is something long and drawn out like a Royal commission on firearms control, a thorough investigation, engaging with stake holds, especially law enforcement and developing a real strategy to combat gun violence in this country.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Liberals have said the RCMP are the firearm experts.

https://twitter.com/fivefivesix_ca/status/1258720475649388547?fbclid=IwAR2qdksW6PqsiN-FMGcf8H_K6l1JT_dnmeqYOyBFF_x5-PdDhhkGStXH8hQ

According to the RCMP a few years ago, AR15s are not "military weapons"

Now the Liberals are saying AR15s and any other gun they decide are military weapons.

So which is it?

 

[blacktriangle]

Yeah, and I remember one CAF member telling me about it, RCMP enlisted our help for transport, tossed them all on an HL, never to be seen again. They were getting tired from kicking in doors, at one point this soldier kicked a door in for them as in his words he had to "hold the officers purse for him", Grey area as to whether he should of done it.

I'm sorry, but most of the above text sounds a little far-fetched to me. You might want to consider your source on that.

 

[kratz]

Liberals have said the RCMP are the firearm experts.
<snip>

Save this nugget for the review of the NS shooting.

 

[FJAG]

Liberals have said the RCMP are the firearm experts.

https://twitter.com/fivefivesix_ca/status/1258720475649388547?fbclid=IwAR2qdksW6PqsiN-FMGcf8H_K6l1JT_dnmeqYOyBFF_x5-PdDhhkGStXH8hQ

According to the RCMP a few years ago, AR15s are not "military weapons"

Now the Liberals are saying AR15s and any other gun they decide are military weapons.

So which is it?

I had a weapons confiscation case in the 1990s where the legal and factual issue was the "convertibility" of three restricted firearms to prohibited ones. The crown brought in two RCMP officers from their firearms lab in Ottawa as experts for the prosecution. I interviewed them prior to the hearing and found them both very knowledgeable and credible (unlike the crown prosecutor handling the case). We won the case largely based on admissions both officers were prepared to make on the stand during cross examination. It didn't hurt that the judge was a Provincial Court Judge with a rural background. (Not sure how well my case would have gone down in Toronto)

I don't sell the RCMP short. (Full disclosure, my daughter is married to one). Like any organization, there are good ones and bad ones and not every RCMP officer is an expert in firearms--far from it, most are casual users at best. On the other hand there are experts within the system who are every bit as knowledgeable as the keenest weapons enthusiast.

When it comes to this whole firearms issue, however, there are two viewpoints: the technical one and the emotional one. The technical viewpoint can be well argued with facts and statistics. The emotional one doesn't care what the facts and the statistics are. Right now the political agenda is being pushed by the emotional agenda largely fueled by a key demographic voter base for the Liberals. Both the DOJ and the RCMP hierarchy are being pushed by this political agenda. I expect along the way there have been briefing notes sent back by the "technicians" and "statisticians" from both the DOJ and RCMP who have, however,  been told by their political masters to get on with what the politicians want. It's far easier to ban a black rifle and claim victory than to reduce gang and drug crime.

:cheers:

 

[Jarnhamar]

I had a weapons confiscation case in the 1990s where the legal and factual issue was the "convertibility" of three restricted firearms to prohibited ones. The crown brought in two RCMP officers from their firearms lab in Ottawa as experts for the prosecution. I interviewed them prior to the hearing and found them both very knowledgeable and credible (unlike the crown prosecutor handling the case). We won the case largely based on admissions both officers were prepared to make on the stand during cross examination. It didn't hurt that the judge was a Provincial Court Judge with a rural background. (Not sure how well my case would have gone down in Toronto)

I don't sell the RCMP short.

I've always found it a bit weird that the RCMP always seem so stuck on convertibility to automatic weapons. Aside from that they seemed to approve a lot of new guns for Canadian markets, I was always pleasantly surprised at the cool guns they were approving. Many non-restricted too.

I think you're hitting the nail on the head with the RCMP being told what the government wants and to make it happen. The government is willing to laud the RCMP as firearm experts as long as the RCMP say what the government wants and expects them to say.

 

[kratz]

[quote author=Jarnhamar]
<snip> The government is willing to laud the RCMP as firearm experts as long as the RCMP say what the government wants and expects them to say.
[/quote]

Of topic, but to the point:
Oh? The largest national veteran's organisation  says what the government wants.

[/cease derail]

 

[MilEME09]

If they wanted to do this right per say, they would of amended the criteria and let the RCMP reclassify based on that.

 

[Haggis]

If they wanted to do this right per say, they would of amended the criteria and let the RCMP reclassify based on that.

Until they reclassify the wrong ones and the PMO has to step in yet again.

 

[FJAG]

I've always found it a bit weird that the RCMP always seem so stuck on convertibility to automatic weapons. Aside from that they seemed to approve a lot of new guns for Canadian markets, I was always pleasantly surprised at the cool guns they were approving. Many non-restricted too.

I think you're hitting the nail on the head with the RCMP being told what the government wants and to make it happen. The government is willing to laud the RCMP as firearm experts as long as the RCMP say what the government wants and expects them to say.

I can't speak for every case but the three I had (which were all merged into one trial) came because Canada Customs received the three firearms which were being imported into Canada by a dealer and sent to the RCMP lab for evaluation as to whether they were restricted or prohibited. Two (a Thompson submachine gun receiver and a complete M2 carbine) were originally manufactured as full auto but had modifications to make them semi-auto only. The third was a foreign version of the FN FAL which was built semi-auto but questioned by Customs (and considered easily convertible to full-auto ) because at the time those were treated in a more restricted fashion than the near identical Canadian FN C1A1.

:cheers:

 

[Colin Parkinson]

My friend imported the first batch of Type 97 bullpups, they had been approved by the RCMP for import and given a Firearm reference number. He had all his paperwork in order. Next thing he knows, CBSA seizes the shipment, they decide to do a big dog and pony show with the media about how they stopped a major shipment of smuggled bad guns. Reading the emails ( I read them myself as well) obtained by an ATIP on the CBSA, 1/2hr before the media event, someones asks: "Did they have any paperwork?", a bunch of back and forths and the answer comes back "Yes all in order". The RDG cancels the media event about 10 minutes beforehand. CBSA sends part of the shipment to the RCMP firearms lab. They spend 6 months looking at them and then claim they can be easily converted to full auto, but won't explain how or what equipment they used to do so. Therefore the guns are now prohibited. The guns cannot be sold in Canada and can't be exported or sent back, so eventually my friend has to abandon the shipment and eat most of the costs.

To be fair to the CBSA they honoured the ATIP fully and released information embarrassing to themselves.
The RCMP basically redacted everything to cover their ***, even stuff CBSA released. I like a lot of RCMP members, but I have zero trust of the RCMP as an organization.

 

[Jarnhamar]

[quote author=Colin P]

To be fair to the CBSA they honoured the ATIP fully and released information embarrassing to themselves.
The RCMP basically redacted everything to cover their ***, even stuff CBSA released. I like a lot of RCMP members, but I have zero trust of the RCMP as an organization.
[/quote]

That's crazy.



The Bloc won't support the gun ban unless there is no grandfathering clause. That puts Trudeau in a tricky spot.

It's also a bit strange that we haven't heard much more about that shooting in Alberta. RCMP and a gunman exchange gunfire. RCMP suffers a gunshot wound, shooter is killed. No name yet?

 

[Haggis]

It's also a bit strange that we haven't heard much more about that shooting in Alberta. RCMP and a gunman exchange gunfire. RCMP suffers a gunshot wound, shooter is killed. No name yet?

We still haven't heard exactly what firearm was used in Fredericton, either.  That was 18 months ago.  So a delay of a day or two in Alberta is not unexpected.