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Multiculturalism or Melting Pot Discussion- Merged

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Smity199 said:
I'm a fifth generation Canadian, my anscetors settled these lands way back when so I consider myself as Canadian as one can get. Whats weird is that in my graduating class less than 30% of us were caucasian.. thie city where I lived (Coquitlam, subburb of Vancouver) has a majority population of people with asian desent, so technically I am or was a visible minority in my city but no in the country I suppose just thought I'd let you guys who havent experienced what its like in a city like vancouver know how things are these days. I deeply saddens me when I think about it, but I know theres nothing I can do about it


Many North American cities are quite similar. Richmond, in BC (pop: 175,000±), Markham in ON (pop: 260,000±) and Plano in TX (a suburb of Dallas) (pop: 225,000±) are all majority Asian. All also have education and income levels above the national average.

“Seniority” doesn’t make a good citizen any more than it made Fredrick the Great’s mules into good tacticians.*

We are a nation of immigrants. That’s a trite statement but it is, undeniably, true. We need to remain a nation of immigrants because demographics is destiny and the “established” Canadians – folks like you and me – do not reproduce at a rate that will produce enough productive workers to pay our old age pensions.

I’m sorry that being a “visible minority” in a Canadian community saddens you. It doesn’t bother me – neither you being a minority nor having more and more and more Asians in Canada. 


---------------
* See here, about the 5th paragraph
 
I also don't understand what "problem" is being suggested here. No-one seems to be against Oktoberfest, St Patrick's Day or Highland Games, or maybe that's just because they originated in European countries.  There has also yet to be any clear evidence presented that promotion of multi-culturalism as a national attribute has resulted in widespread funding of individual events.

Canada has a broad demographic base, and the resulting evolution of the country is not destructive, expect perhaps in the minds of those who resist change.

Population by selected ethnic origins, by province and territory (2006 Census)
 
This discussion seems very familer, and I finally found a relevant thread that speaks to these ideas:
"Respect our values or leave" (one of my posts here: http://Forums.Army.ca/forums/threads/39343/post-343964/topicseen.html#msg343964)

I am a proponent of the "melting pot", using the tools of "Civic Nationalism" to forge a true collective identity. This is/was one of the key tools that powered the growth of the United States; between the end of the Civil War and @ 1920 the concept of Civic Nationalism was aggressively applied by business, community groups, churches etc. to ensure incoming people became culturally "American". The fact that the United States has a largely unitary culture with relatively minor regional differences (in the grand scheme of things; a person from Dixie has more in common with a New Yorker than a Serb and a Bosnian Serb from Republika Srpska).

Sadly civic nationalism and the unitary American culture is waning due to influences as varied as illegal and unassimilated Mexican migration, the growth of explicitly non national "progressive" ideology in academia, media, government and so on. The "culture wars" between the Red and Blue states is also a symptom of this.

So long as the political system can feed off the divide and conquer model, then cheats like multi culturalism or "class warfare" can be deployed by politicians as varied as Giles Duceppe and Barack Obama in order to gain and hold political power. This is the real reason ideas like class and multiculturalism grow and thrive, and it is difficult to see what sort of powerful countervailing force could be applied today.
 
Smity199 said:
I'm a fifth generation Canadian, my anscetors settled these lands way back when so I consider myself as Canadian as one can get. Whats weird is that in my graduating class less than 30% of us were caucasian.. thie city where I lived (Coquitlam, subburb of Vancouver) has a majority population of people with asian desent, so technically I am or was a visible minority in my city but no in the country I suppose just thought I'd let you guys who havent experienced what its like in a city like vancouver know how things are these days. I deeply saddens me when I think about it, but I know theres nothing I can do about it

Interesting,

Where did your family hail from originally, before coming here?

dileas

tess
 
- Immigration for 'economic' reasons is a tired and hackneyed argument.  We need to educate the Canadians we have and employ them to their abilities rather than let them stay at home, collect pogey and wail about how dying baby boomers can't keep the social programs going thus we need to siphon off productive citizens from the Third world.

- I say balls to that. 

- First, on ethical grounds: the Third World needs all of it's own greatest minds at home solving problems, not coming to Canada and writing books about it.

- Second, on economic grounds: I bet more than half of the richest contries on Earth have populations of less than 20,000,000.  We need efficient social programs, not socialist sacred cows.
 
the 48th regulator said:
Interesting,

Where did your family hail from originally, before coming here?

dileas

tess

Hey Smitty,

Just reposting, in case you missed my question. 

dileas

tess

 
TCBF said:
- First, on ethical grounds: the Third World needs all of it's own greatest minds at home solving problems, not coming to Canada and writing books about it.

Ah, yes, the old "why don't you stay and fix your own countries" argument.  Another tired and hackneyed way to indirectly say, "I don't want you in my country".  I'm sure the Irish would have appreciated that in the 1840s.

 
I do not think comparing the mass exodus of the Irish due largely to the potato famine to the immigration influx of the day is a valid observation. Today's reasons for people coming to Canada are quite different than those of 1840 - 1850.

I also support TCBF's points.

What is good for our country is not opening the doors to allow people to do unwanted labour jobs or to fill vacancies in high end jobs that we  need experts to do. It is to improve our productivity as a nation either by educating our own or by having our own people role up their sleeves and do work that needs being done.
 
Michael O'Leary said:
Ah, yes, the old "why don't you stay and fix your own countries" argument.  Another tired and hackneyed way to indirectly say, "I don't want you in my country".  I'm sure the Irish would have appreciated that in the 1840s.

They were told that.That's why on the east coast they stayed in their own little towns,or went to Quebec.They were hated by the English.Take a book on Newfoundland history out and have a look.Hence why so many went to Quebec.
http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:s1ePlSzYFXEJ:www.umanitoba.ca/colleges/st_pauls/ccha/Back%2520Issues/CCHA1985/Finnegan.pdf+irish+hated+in+canada&cd=9&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=ca



Having said that,I am married to a immigrant. We have ******* mix breed children.My wife,her father,her MOTHER all served in the CANADIAN military.Her father just retired 20 odd years in,wife completed 6 years in the regular force,her mother did 5 years in the reserves.
....Don't yah just hate it when immigrants show up and TAKE Canadian jobs? ;)

If this hatred spills over into a Yugo style war me and my family have a huge problem...who the frack do we side up with??

edit to add:
This is a show I watched a while back.DNA testing of those who thought themselves 100% english.50 odd minutes but worth the watch.
http://www.liveleak.com/view?i=756_1243708223
 
TCBF said:
- Immigration for 'economic' reasons is a tired and hackneyed argument.  We need to educate the Canadians we have and employ them to their abilities rather than let them stay at home, collect pogey and wail about how dying baby boomers can't keep the social programs going thus we need to siphon off productive citizens from the Third world.

- I say balls to that. 

- First, on ethical grounds: the Third World needs all of it's own greatest minds at home solving problems, not coming to Canada and writing books about it.

- Second, on economic grounds: I bet more than half of the richest contries on Earth have populations of less than 20,000,000.  We need efficient social programs, not socialist sacred cows.


Michael O'Leary said:
Ah, yes, the old "why don't you stay and fix your own countries" argument.  Another tired and hackneyed way to indirectly say, "I don't want you in my country".  I'm sure the Irish would have appreciated that in the 1840s.


I agree, in principle but only on a very broad level, with TCBF’s two contentions:

First: we fail to prepare enough native-born Canadians for the jobs that need doing. Those jobs are not manual labour or public services, they are in science, engineering, medicine, business, etc; and

Second: we do not help most third world nations when we entice away their most productive people. But some countries – China and India, for example – have a surplus, in some cases a dangerous surplus, of well educated, sophisticated, ambitious young people. Enticing them to fill the jobs that need filling here can be and should be a “win/win” situation.

The long term solution to our first problem is a thoroughgoing “reform” in our societal norms that will, eventually, maybe around the year 2100, replace our existing “culture of entitlement” with one in which hard work, education and ambition produce rewards while lethargy and the “cult of me” produce failure.

There are a few countries in the world, Australia, Canada and the USA amongst them, that are lightly populated. We can “accommodate” more people – millions, indeed tens of millions more – in the near and mid term and, provided we “select” people who are likely to be productive fairly quickly (that is the immigrants, themselves, will be productive, not just their children) and who are likely to “fit in” without too much difficulty.

Immigrants, if they are properly “selected and recruited” can help us improve our overall productivity and the “right” immigrants might help us to overcome our “culture of entitlement” and “cult of me.”
 
 
People complaining about the immigration system and how easy it is to get in should go on over to Immigration Canada's self-assessment for prospective skilled workers and see if you could get landed immigrant status yourself solely on what you have to offer the country:
http://www.cic.gc.ca/english/immigrate/skilled/assess/index.asp

Take away the advantages you already have by living here (family in Canada and arranged employment) and it's tough to get 67 points, unless you're under 30 with an advanced degree, and preferably with a spouse with similar qualifications. And a pass mark only puts your app in queue rather than the shredder – there's health screening, an evaluation of whether Canada needs your skills and a host of other factors.

 
Michael O'Leary said:
Ah, yes, the old "why don't you stay and fix your own countries" argument.  Another tired and hackneyed way to indirectly say, "I don't want you in my country".  I'm sure the Irish would have appreciated that in the 1840s.

;D

- Actually, I think some of my folks came over around the 1820s, and the other side around the 1860s.
 
Here, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act from today’s Globe and Mail, is an essay by Daniel Stoffman that is related to my regular admonitions that culture matters:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/opinions/an-ideology-not-a-fact/article1260351/
An ideology, not a fact
Canada is multicultural and the U.S. has a melting pot, but assimilation rates are the same in both countries

Daniel Stoffman

Friday, Aug. 21, 2009

Last February, police in North Carolina arrested 73 people in a major cockfighting bust. Many of those arrested were illegal immigrants from Hispanic countries where cockfighting is a favourite sport.

Thousands of people take part in cockfighting in many parts of the United States, although all states have passed laws against it. Enthusiasts in Louisiana have sued the U.S. government, claiming its ban on shipping fighting birds discriminates against Hispanics because cockfighting is integral to their culture. The plaintiffs in the suit apparently haven't heard that the United States is a “melting pot” rather than a multicultural society.

Canada, which, unlike the United States, is officially multicultural, might be expected to show respect for an activity that is said to be integral to one of our many cultures. Yet last year, the Society for the Prevention of Cruelty to Animals and the RCMP raided three properties in Cloverdale, B.C., and broke up a cockfighting ring. The SPCA had to kill 1,270 mutilated roosters that had been kept tethered to barrels. Some of the birds had legs and eyes missing.

Should Canada allow cockfighting in the name of multiculturalism? Of course not. To most Canadians, it is a cruel and disgusting practice. Yet there is something puzzling here. Either we are multicultural or we aren't. The basic tenet of multiculturalism is that all cultures are equally worthy. It is hard to reconcile this dogma with Canada's rejection of virtually any cultural practice that the mainstream finds offensive.

It's not as if cockfighting were an insignificant part of the culture of many foreign-born Canadians. It is wildly popular in many Latin American countries, as well as in the Philippines and other parts of Asia. The Dominican Republic, for example, has 1,500 registered cockfighting arenas. Juan Marichal, the great San Francisco Giants pitcher who was an idol to thousands of American baseball fans, raises fighting roosters and oversaw cockfighting when he was minister of sports in the Dominican Republic in the 1990s.

Polygamy is integral to the culture of many new Canadians, as is female circumcision. Both are illegal in Canada, as is the khat leaf, which plays the same role in the social life of Somalis as wine or beer does in that of the Canadian mainstream. Britain, which does not have a policy of official multiculturalism, allows khat, but in Canada, it is banned as a dangerous drug.

In Vancouver, during the 1980s and 1990s, wealthy Asian immigrants built huge new houses, knocking down ancient trees in the process. This caused consternation among Vancouverites, prompting the city to restrict the rights of homeowners to destroy trees on their property. And last month, the Supreme Court ruled that Hutterites in Alberta must have their photographs taken as a condition of having drivers' licences. Some Hutterites had argued that being photographed was a violation of their religious freedom.

The reality is that Canadians talk about multiculturalism but don't practise it. That does not mean we don't embrace diversity. Both Canada and the United States, because of high levels of immigration, are diverse societies, but diversity and multiculturalism are not synonyms. Diversity encompasses a variety of characteristics that differentiate people, including dress, culinary and musical styles. An example is Toronto's hugely successful Caribana festival. Such events are hardly unique to Canada; several major U.S. cities have Caribbean festivals too.

Diversity is not divisive in secular democracies that respect individual freedom, such as Canada and the United States. On the other hand, culture is not just about superficial differences but also about core values. The people who were attending cock fights in Cloverdale simply don't understand our tender feelings toward animals. This is a difference in values and there is no room for compromise.

The notion that Canada is a mosaic while the United States is a melting pot does not survive scrutiny. In 1994, a study by two University of Toronto sociologists, Jeffrey Reitz and Raymond Breton, found that language retention of third-generation immigrants was less than 1 per cent in both countries. This was significant. One would expect foreign languages to dissolve into the American melting pot. But Canada is supposed to be a mosaic: a set of separate and distinct cultural entities. If it really were a mosaic, ancestral languages would survive through the generations. But they don't, because the offspring of immigrants are quickly absorbed into the dominant language milieux of North America.

Language is more than a way of communicating; it is a way of thinking, of organizing perception, of looking at the world. When you lose it, you lose the essence of your culture.

Only if there is a critical mass of speakers can the ancestral language survive. The absence of a U.S. policy of official multiculturalism did not prevent Miami from becoming a bilingual city. It happened because of a massive influx of Spanish-speaking immigrants accompanied by an outflow of English speakers. As a result, a majority of Miami's population speaks Spanish.

It is possible that certain parts of Toronto or Vancouver will experience the same phenomenon, but only an immigration policy of continuous high levels of immigration from the same source countries could make that happen. It won't happen because of heritage language classes promoted by multiculturalism policy.

Polling data over the years debunks the idea that Canadians are more open to cultural differences than are Americans. A Decima Research poll in 1989 found that 47 per cent of Americans but only 34 per cent of Canadians favoured the maintenance of “distinct cultures and ways.”

There is no evidence that Canadians have warmed to multiculturalism since. In an Angus Reid poll last April, 62 per cent agreed with the statement, “Laws and norms should not be modified to accommodate minorities.” Strong majorities were opposed to public funding of religious schools. Just 23 per cent would allow veiled women to vote and only 3 per cent would allow the use of Islamic sharia law. In 2005, a proposal by the Ontario government to permit sharia law tribunals to settle family disputes had to be withdrawn in the face of a public backlash.

It seems that multiculturalism is an idea that appeals to certain politicians, columnists and academics but has little resonance in Canadian society as a whole. Meanwhile, old-fashioned diversity is working just fine. A good example is the success of the T&T Supermarket chain. In 1993, Cindy Lee, a Taiwanese-born Canadian, opened her first Asian supermarket in suburban Vancouver. Sixteen years later, the chain has grown to 17 stores in B.C., Alberta and Ontario, offering a huge array of Chinese, Japanese, Vietnamese and other Asian foods.

The stores were opened to cater to Canada's growing Asian population. Two years ago, on my first visit to a new T&T store in the Toronto port district, I was one of a handful of non-Asians. On a recent shopping trip, I noticed that at least 25 per cent of the customers were non-Asian. Asian food is now part of the mainstream in Canada – so much so that last month Loblaw Companies Ltd. announced it was paying $225-million to buy T&T.

Is this a triumph for the multiculturalism program? Not at all. It is just Canadian society working as it always has. Non-Chinese Canadians have been eating Chinese food since the 19th century, just as they have enjoyed perogies and spaghetti and the many other dishes that other immigrants have brought with them. Now, instead of just enjoying Asian food in restaurants, they are preparing it at home.

Canadians never needed a government program to encourage them to taste something new. We don't welcome global cuisines because we are multicultural; we welcome global cuisines because doing so is part of our culture.

It is part of other cultures as well. Even Japan, which does not want immigrants and is firmly unicultural, has a long history of adopting foreign foods and absorbing them into Japanese cuisine. Four hundred years ago, Portuguese missionaries taught the Japanese to fry vegetables and shrimp in batter, creating the tempura that is a favourite Japanese snack to this day. If the Japanese are accepting U.S. fast-food chains now, it is not because they are becoming multicultural but because fast food has always been part of Japanese culture.

Perhaps the story of T&T is an example of what Jason Kenney, the Minister of Citizenship, Immigration and Multiculturalism, means when he says integration should be the goal of the immigration program: An immigrant makes a huge success of a business venture, Canadians of the majority culture embrace it along with their Asian fellow citizens, and a Canadian public company takes it over, so that anyone can become a part owner of T&T. The result: a business that is emblematic of Canadian diversity has been integrated into the mainstream of the Canadian economy.

“Our new focus is on integration,” Mr. Kenney said in Calgary recently. “We don't want to create a bunch of silo communities where kids grow up in a community that more resembles their parents' country of origin than Canada. We want people to be Canadians first and foremost – to be proud of and maintain their own tradition and heritage, but not at the price of developing their Canadian identity.”

But if we don't want silos, then we don't want to be a mosaic either. Both images suggest a society composed of separate groups rather than an integrated whole. If the Minister of Multiculturalism is rejecting silos, he is also rejecting multiculturalism. Maybe it's time the Department of Multiculturalism was renamed the Department of Integration.

Daniel Stoffman's study of Canadian immigration policy, Who Gets In , was runner-up for the 2002 Donner Prize for the best book on Canadian public policy and the Shaughnessy Cohen Prize for the best book on Canadian politics.


Stoffman’s most important point is that “we” – Canadians, generally, and our governments, too – reject multiculturalism. It is not part of our national “vision.” It (the multiculturalism policy, the legions of bureaucrats who administer it and the money that flows from it) is, and always was, nothing more nor less than a crass vote buying scheme that is pursued by the three major national political parties. (The BQ is, inherently, anti-multicult because it's raison d’être, a “Free” Franco Québec for the “pure laine” is, essentially, racist in presuming that “pure laine” are either “better” and deserve to be “on top” or “inferior” and need special protection to survive.)

Official Multiculturalism, it needs a big M, is a waste of time and money and an affront to our real cultural values.

There is a large, healthy - for the multicult "communities" and for Canada, at large -  and prospering unofficial multicult “movement” in Canada. It is, almost exclusively, separate and even remote from the official, national, provincial and local programmes – all of which are 100% politically motivated and do little or nothing for minority communities. It is exemplified by Cindy Lee and the T&T chain – it is the sort of practical, necessary multicult that serves a community by meeting its most basic needs and, consequently and usually unintentionally, fosters a sense of “community.” Asian malls in Markham or Richmond become, de facto more than just shopping centres.

Official Multiculturalism, as conceived by the Liberals and practiced, across the country, by Conservatives, Liberals and NDPers is BS, pure and simple, and the sooner it is put on the policy trash heap the better.
 
the 48th regulator said:
Hey Smitty,

Just reposting, in case you missed my question. 

dileas

tess

Hey, sorry I've been kind of busy getting ready to leave in a few days here for St. Jean.

My ancestors originally came from Ireland on one side and northern England on the other.
 
Me.....I'm just a pure laine CANADIAN....NOT a hyphenated one!!....and proud of it.


tango22a
 
Smity199 said:
Hey, sorry I've been kind of busy getting ready to leave in a few days here for St. Jean.

Good luck, Smity!
 
Someone, Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Robert Fulford, ‘get it’ – albeit only in part, according to this column, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act from the National Post:

http://fullcomment.nationalpost.com/2010/06/12/robert-fulford-the-threatening-honesty-of-ayaan-hirsi-ali/
Robert Fulford:
The threatening honesty of Ayaan Hirsi Ali


By Robert Fulford  June 12, 2010

Ayaan Hirsi Ali comes before the West as a messenger bearing terrifying news: We are in a struggle with Islam that threatens our civilization and our most crucial principles.

ayaan_hirsi_ali_copy1238633709.jpg

Photo from salon.com

She resembles the refugee dissidents who arrived here carrying a similar message from the Soviet empire long ago, except that she’s escaped from an oppressive state of mind rather than a barbed-wire nation state. Born into fundamentalist Islam, she rebelled against its tyranny and eventually set out to tell the West what we face. Her new book, Nomad, helps to spread the alarm to sleepy, prosperous countries, such as Canada.

Even now, after many Islamist atrocities, Canadians prefer to ignore what she has to say. After all, she threatens our religion of multiculturalism and casts grave doubt on our immigration policy. She undermines our anxious hope that Islam is mainly harmless
.
On Tuesday, at a Donner Foundation lecture in Toronto, she defined the conflict as a war of ideas. That raised, by implication, some urgent questions. Is this a war Canadians (or others in the West) can fight? Have we the intellectual equipment? Do we feel strongly enough to commit ourselves to it? Are there any leaders for such a war?

Judging by the typical reactions so far to her warnings, the answer in each case is No. As with refugees from communism, she’s received equivocal and uncomprehending responses. In the Soviet era, smug and condescending journalists in the West habitually instructed exiles on the complexities within communism, which liberals in the West could understand but East Europeans couldn’t.

In just this way, the New Yorker magazine carried a review of Nomad by Pankaj Mishra, complaining that Hirsi Ali’s “life experiences have yet to ripen into a sense of history.” When she praises Voltaire and the Enlightenment, Mishra correctly points out that he was a virulent anti-Semite.

Similarly, when Hirsi Ali indicates approval of Oriana Fallaci’s criticism of Islam, Mishra recalls that Fallaci once claimed that Muslims in Europe “breed like rats,” which apparently ends that argument. Writing in a flagrantly liberal magazine, Mishra does his best to label Hirsi Ali a conservative, noting that the Brookings Institution (liberal) declined to hire her but the American Enterprise Institute (conservative) took her on staff — although, within Islam, she is as far from a conservative as it is possible to be.

More important, Mishra (a well-travelled Indian-born professor and fierce critic of Hinduism) suggests that Hirsi Ali simply doesn’t understand the many varieties of Islam. They, too, are multilayered, like the Enlightenment, their identities “usually” influenced less by the Koran or Sharia than by politics, culture and economics. Those who know little about the issues would be left with the impression that she just isn’t bright enough to see reality as he does.

When Hirsi Ali reached Toronto this week, she ran into another kind of condescension. Jian Ghomeshi, a British-born Iranian-Canadian, staged the interview with her on his CBC radio program, Q, as a kind of tutorial, a way to point out her errors. He was concerned with her tactics.

In Nomad, she said that from the standpoint of those seeking a good life (prosperity, peace, individual freedom), the West does a better job than the Islamic states, such as her homeland, Somalia. This indicated that the morals of the “infidels” in the West are superior to those of Muslims. So Ghomeshi asked, “Ayaan, do you not worry that statements like this might alienate the Muslims that you want to engage?”

No, she said. Reasonable individuals can see that the West is mainly successful whereas Somalia (and other Islamic states) are miserable failures. Ghomeshi expressed more concern: She was setting up a hierarchy, calling one set of principles better than another. He obviously considered that a mistake but it was her main point: Ideas must be judged on their merits. “There are good ideas and bad ideas.” What a concept for Canada! It was nearly radical enough to blow out the CBC transmitters.

She had more: “If you compare a society that is built on liberalism with a society built on what Mohamed left behind, the results speak for themselves.” Sharia, she said, has failed everywhere it has been tried.

“Surely this is subjective,” Ghomeshi said. There must be people in those countries who like the system. Then why, Hirsi Ali asked, are so many trying so hard to get to the West? Ghomeshi, perhaps a little desperate, played the conservative card. She must be a conservative, he said, since she’s in a right-wing think tank. Hirsi Ali was ready for that one: “What is ‘right-wing’ about fighting for the equality of men and women?”

Ghomeshi tried to convince her she’s a conservative. She tried to educate him in liberal principles. Finally, he asked whether she believed there was anything Islam could teach the West. She said she couldn’t think of a thing.

This woman displays a level of honesty that shames the entire media industry. She means what she says and she risks her life to say it. No wonder so many find her so threatening.

National Post
robert.fulford@utoronto.ca

The reason they are only partially right is that Ayaan Hirsi Ali fails to separate the problems inherent in Islam, and there are some – just as there are in Christianity, with the many, many more and much more serious problems that lie within the Arab/Persian/West Asian cultures which coexist with and are tightly intermeshed into Islam.

The problem, the enemy is not Islam; Muslims are not our enemies just because they are Muslims. The enemy is barbarism and most Arab/Persian/West Asian cultures are if not wholly barbaric then, at least, only lightly and superficially civilized.

What’s civilized? Simple: religiously reformed and socio-politically enlightened. Most civilized societies are capitalistic – the process of enlightenment makes capitalism more and more palatable. Civilized societies are not, necessarily, liberal or even democratic – some are but not all, and not the largest.

Where Ayaan Hirsi Ali and Robert Fulford are right is in confronting the barbarians’ apologists here in the West. No one has a right or even a privilege to not be offended. It doesn’t matter is someone draws cartoons of the Prophet or calls the Pope a pedophile – some people will be offended but that is not a matter of any concern to anyone but them. All those who protest against slagging Islam or Christianity or who reflexively decry anti-Semitism are, de facto, trying to limit all individual liberties in order to protect the sensibilities of others; they are part of the problem.
 
I believe statements such as "most Arab/Persian/West Asian cultures are if not wholly barbaric" is part of the reason why there exist such a perceived divide between the West and Islam. When one uses words like "barbarian" to describe a particular culture, they unfairly ignore its winder contributions and even more direly stigmatize whole peoples. Such terminology easily plays into the image of bearded men hoarding their veiled female cousins into caves, while ignoring the massive contributions of Islamic culture in the sciences and arts and of Muslims in our own country.

 
BHC1:

Would you be more comfortable if I suggested that by and large the indigenous populations of the region in question appear to have a higher tolerance for activities that those living in the enlightened, liberal West would generally consider barbaric, if of course we were inclined to take a position on the matter at all?

(Gawd, I do miss "Yes, Prime Minister")
 
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