Multiculturalism or Melting Pot Discussion- Merged

[ZipperHead]

Definitions of culture:

- a particular society at a particular time and place; "early Mayan civilization"

- the tastes in art and manners that are favored by a social group

- acculturation: all the knowledge and values shared by a society

- (biology) the growing of microorganisms in a nutrient medium (such as gelatin or agar); "the culture of cells in a Petri dish"

- polish: a highly developed state of perfection; having a flawless or impeccable quality; "they performed with great polish"; "I admired the exquisite refinement of his prose"; "almost an inspiration which gives to all work that finish which is almost art"--Joseph Conrad

- the attitudes and behavior that are characteristic of a particular social group or organization; "the developing drug culture"; "the reason that the agency is doomed to inaction has something to do with the FBI culture"

- the raising of plants or animals; "the culture of oysters"

- The word culture comes from the Latin root colere (to inhabit, to cultivate, or to honor). In general, it refers to human activity ; different definitions of culture reflect different theories for understanding, or criteria for valuing, human activity. Anthropologists use the term to refer to the universal human capacity to classify experiences, and to encode and communicate them symbolically. They regard this capacity as a defining feature of the genus Homo.

I put that there to placate Michael (and highlighted the points that are applicable, unless we are talking about yogurt), as either he was too lazy to post it, or probably he was trying to press a point: are we saying "culture" when we really mean something else, perhaps something sinister. Sort of like when we say something is "urban" it means black (as in urban music).

Let's ponder this to see what we come up with, or are we all trying to catch smoke?

Al

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Allan, I raise the issue to bring up the point that Canada DOESN'T HAVE A CULTURE.  We've been unable to define it for ourselves, and perhaps that is the biggest problem we have in assimilating those from "other cultures."  Without an understanding across the board on what is culture and what is not, we have no hope of sorting things out.

Wearing turbans in the Legion.  Is that culture?  Religion?  Ethnicity?  Special interest group?

Taking your hat off to pray on parade.  Culture?  An institution to be protected by laws regarding culture?  Outdated tradition?

Can culture be 'outdated' the way traditions can?

I suggest that an inability to agree on these kinds of questions are problematic.  We're talking about accepting "others" into "our culture" without really knowing what that culture is.  Moreover, we're saying that "their culture" is actually a part of "our culture".  Our culture being "multi-culturism."

I think by saying our culture is every culture, we've ensured we don't have one at all.

 

[UberCree]

Define "culture".

Culture is what we transmit.  Our beliefs, values, practices, customs, norms, taboos, etc.  As an example, culture is being 'transmitted' here on these boards by how we interact with each other, by how we write, the posts we value and the posts that get deleted, etc.  No one can escape culture.  To say that we have no culture would be to say that we have no ... thoughts ... feelings ... intellect ... whatever.  Its all a part of culture.
I would agree with you that Canada at times has an identity crisis, but we do have a culture.  The fact that we question who we are at length is part of our culture.  A part I like.

 

[Michael Dorosh]

Culture is what we transmit.  Our beliefs, values, practices, customs, norms, taboos, etc.  As an example, culture is being 'transmitted' here on these boards by how we interact with each other, by how we write, the posts we value and the posts that get deleted, etc.  No one can escape culture.  To say that we have no culture would be to say that we have no ... thoughts ... feelings ... intellect ... whatever. 

I agree with your (conveniently deleted by me) last statement, but will focus on this.  We used to have thoughts...feelings...intellect...somewhat in common, mainly by dint of the fact the majority were white, anglo-saxon, protestants.  I'm not lobbying that was desirable, just the way things worked out.  Natives, Chinese immigrants (CPR slave labor), and others were very much marginalized and society was rather misogynist.  But it was a common culture.

A look at the political scene, for one example, shows a fragmenting of thought - convervative and liberal (small c and l) is so diverse that there is no unique Canadian culture easily identified.  Yes, it is something different to everybody, but our commonalities seem to be getting fewer and fewer.  Hockey Night in Canada and Tim Horton's appear to be the leading edge.

It's part of society's trend to everyone for himself, I think. We applaud individuals (very much like the Americans do), and think little of teamwork or the big picture.  Why is the Army in such dire straits?  Everyone is worried about health care - in the end, an individual priority.  they don't ask "what if we're attacked", they ask "what if I get sick."  Always I and never We.

Multiculturalism has encouraged that outlook, I think.  I want to wear a kirpan to school because its my right.  I want to grow my hair long and serve on the Fire Department, so change the standard.  I'm preserving my culture.  I want an extra day off at Christmas, so I'm working on Rememberance Day.

The I culture is winning out over the We culture. 

 

[Glorified Ape]

"I think the problems like Jamaican gangs, Asian gangs, East-European/Russian mobs, etc. have a tendency to be blown out of proportion (as a problem) relative to the respective group as a whole. Asian/Jamaican gangs etc. are not a representation of the norm for their respective groups. Yes, they're a problem, but such problems gauged against the entirety of effect achieved by multiculturalism are minimal to say the least."

- Very good points.  The vast majority of the people from these groups just want to live, work, and raise their families in Canada.  The govmint should ensure they can do so without fear of the gangs/triads/ter groups that came over to tax/control their respective diasporas. 

Tom

Absolutely - deport them if possible.

 

[Dare]

What is Canadian culture?  The fact that it is very difficult to define "Canadian culture"  points to the fact that that there is nothing to melt into.  The mosiac is in and of itself consistently changing,  and I have yet to see an argument outside of "things just won't be like they used to", to illustrate why there is a requirement for a firm, unyielding hand to guide it.  The melting pot invariably means that various cultural contributions are diluted by the mass that already exists therin.  I don't understand your rail against "elites" however, in one sentence you argue for the need of a firm unyielding hand to guide it, but in another you rail against elitism, and abdicating out responsibilities, which is it?

I agree that it is difficult to define "Canadian culture". I would say that a melting pot is not so much a "melting into" as it is a "melting together". A natural merging. I also do not believe that a melting pot invariably leads to dilution, as it is predicated on the notion that there is, or has ever been, an undiluted culture in the world. I view it as a summing of various values and traditions. Evolution, if you will. I was not arguing for an unyielding (elitist) hand to guide multiculturalism, I was trying to point out the logical needs that system. Neither are productive. I was pointing out that it is a requirement of multiculturalism, that there be a bond between cultures (especially warring and disagreeable ones), and thus a sort of managed transparent super culture. All cultures in this multicultural society must bend to the will of the super culture or be banned. I'm also hoping to make clear that multicultural does not mean omnicultural. The elitists can pick and choose amongst the sub cultures of whom will be allowed to be their legitimate representatives but ultimately, it will always be whoever controls the ideal of the thread that binds will be the one who defines what is "Canadian" or not.

There are arguments to the funding of culture (as independant from the Arts) in that the fundemental importance of culture to the human condition (everone exhibits it), leads one to question the valdity of those practices if the only justification for engaging in it is a big fat government cheque.

I do not believe that one can "fund culture", but rather pay to change culture.

 

[Dare]

I detect some of you are fearful of multiculturalism.  Is it because you may be dethroned as the majority culture (you can roast me for making a HUGE generalization here) ???  If enough Asians immigrate to Canada to become mainstream will you then support multiculturalism or will you adopt mainstream Asian cultural practices ???  Culture is dynamic and changing.  In California and Texas hispanics will be the majority soon and will have the right to dictate mainstream culture... you could argue anyway.  This is just all rhetorical and are questions I ask myself daily. 
;D

I always find it interesting when one implies that new cultures will have the right to dictate their culture to Canada, yet the rest of us already living here have no right to promote and protect our culture (whatever it may be). Perhaps we fear the rise of cultures that do not respect law, justice, order and civil liberties? Perhaps we fear that what our predecessors fought tooth and nail for is being given away and traded for something of lesser quality? Or maybe to some it's as simple as not wishing the communication standard to be a more inefficient and complicated language. I'm sure that there are many reasons that some are *distainful* of multiculturalism..

 

[UberCree]

I always find it interesting when one implies that new cultures will have the right to dictate their culture to Canada, yet the rest of us already living here have no right to promote and protect our culture (whatever it may be). Perhaps we fear the rise of cultures that do not respect law, justice, order and civil liberties? Perhaps we fear that what our predecessors fought tooth and nail for is being given away and traded for something of lesser quality? Or maybe to some it's as simple as not wishing the communication standard to be a more inefficient and complicated language. I'm sure that there are many reasons that some are *distainful* of multiculturalism..

In my opinion you just made a case FOR multiculturalism.  You lost me on your last two points, I wont even bother to try to interpret what you were implying, but on your first two points our combined ancestors fought for freedoms and protection from the 'state' to tell us whether or not we were 'lesser quality' or 'inefficient' human beings. 
I am not saying that Sharia law should have the right to exist in Canada or that people should be allowed to practise oppressive traditions.  However if someone wants to practice their beliefs and it doesn't harm others then why not? 

 

[48Highlander]

In my opinion you just made a case FOR multiculturalism.  You lost me on your last two points, I wont even bother to try to interpret what you were implying, but on your first two points our combined ancestors fought for freedoms and protection from the 'state' to tell us whether or not we were 'lesser quality' or 'inefficient' human beings. 
I am not saying that Sharia law should have the right to exist in Canada or that people should be allowed to practise oppressive traditions.  However if someone wants to practice their beliefs and it doesn't harm others then why not? 

Just going to play devils advocate here for a sec:

"Why not"?  Because by the time they DO start harming others, it's too late.  Look at the racial (Muslim) problems in France, Australia, and parts of  Europe.  Riots, rampaging, gang-rapes....these things didn't start overnight.  They're happening because the governments have progressively allowed them to get away with more and more, until eventually they got the idea that they could turn their adopted countries into the new Muslim paradise.  Why not stop it before it grows out of control?  Don't dictate what religions people can believe in...but "Strongly Encourage" them to integrate themselves into their new invironment.

 

[midgetcop]

"Why not"?  Because by the time they DO start harming others, it's too late.  Look at the racial (Muslim) problems in France, Australia, and parts of  Europe.  Riots, rampaging, gang-rapes....these things didn't start overnight.  They're happening because the governments have progressively allowed them to get away with more and more, until eventually they got the idea that they could turn their adopted countries into the new Muslim paradise.  Why not stop it before it grows out of control?  Don't dictate what religions people can believe in...but "Strongly Encourage" them to integrate themselves into their new invironment.

I'm not sure how allowing groups of new Canadians to practice their culture/religion automatically leads to crime. There are plenty of new Canadians who have been able to "integrate" into society and follow our laws, yet retain their religious identity.

And a good move on Ontario's part: getting rid of Sharia's Law.

 

[Dare]

In my opinion you just made a case FOR multiculturalism.  You lost me on your last two points, I wont even bother to try to interpret what you were implying, but on your first two points our combined ancestors fought for freedoms and protection from the 'state' to tell us whether or not we were 'lesser quality' or 'inefficient' human beings. 
I am not saying that Sharia law should have the right to exist in Canada or that people should be allowed to practise oppressive traditions.  However if someone wants to practice their beliefs and it doesn't harm others then why not? 

I figured you would morph culture into race. How easy for you to codify the world like that. I did not say "lesser quality" or "inefficient" human beings. Do not distort my words. If you do not believe the right for Sharia law to exist in Canada, I am sure it is at least in part due to your belief it is "lesser quality" or "inefficient". So please, don't try to interperate what you think I was implying, because you can not properly interperate what I was actually saying at all.

 

[Greywolf]

Just going to play devils advocate here for a sec:

"Why not"?  Because by the time they DO start harming others, it's too late.  Look at the racial (Muslim) problems in France, Australia, and parts of  Europe.  Riots, rampaging, gang-rapes....these things didn't start overnight.  They're happening because the governments have progressively allowed them to get away with more and more, until eventually they got the idea that they could turn their adopted countries into the new Muslim paradise.  Why not stop it before it grows out of control?  Don't dictate what religions people can believe in...but "Strongly Encourage" them to integrate themselves into their new environment.

And what would this new environment be?  A Christian environment?  We cannot even define what a Canadian culture is because there aren't any traditions or customs that are unique Canadian.  There simply was not enough time for a Canadian culture to form because Canada hasn't been around for that long.  With more and more immigrants from various ethnic groups coming into Canada, it will be even more difficult for a "Canadian" culture to form because they will each bring their own traditions and customs with them.  When we tell people to integrate, we are just saying all the minority (as in groups that happen to be part of the less than 50% of the population) should follow whatever the majority believes in.  I do not see a problem when people follow their own ethnic or cultural traditions.  Why would it be a problem when Jews celebrate Hannukah or Muslims practice fasting at Ramadan...or Chinese celebrating Chinese New Year, or Hungarians participate in Easter Sprinkling?  None of these practices are harming people.  I think people should be happy they have the opportunity to observe and learn about these customs first hand without having to travel to several different countries. 

Often people come to have negative about certain groups or group practices because they are identified in the media.  How often do we hear about Asian gangs or Muslim radicals?  How come we hardly ever hear about Caucasian gangs or Christian extremists?  It is not the ethnic group or religious group that commits crimes.  Perhaps some criminals or murderers or suicide bombers happen to belong to certain ethnic or religious groups.  But That is not what make them criminals.  It is people who believe they are superior or self-righteous, people who cannot tolerate dissenting views that become dangerous...because they are the fanatics who will do anything to make others conform to one ideal!

 

[Dare]

And what would this new environment be?  A Christian environment?  We cannot even define what a Canadian culture is because there aren't any traditions or customs that are unique Canadian.  There simply was not enough time for a Canadian culture to form because Canada hasn't been around for that long.  With more and more immigrants from various ethnic groups coming into Canada, it will be even more difficult for a "Canadian" culture to form because they will each bring their own traditions and customs with them.  When we tell people to integrate, we are just saying all the minority (as in groups that happen to be part of the less than 50% of the population) should follow whatever the majority believes in.  I do not see a problem when people follow their own ethnic or cultural traditions.  Why would it be a problem when Jews celebrate Hannukah or Muslims practice fasting at Ramadan...or Chinese celebrating Chinese New Year, or Hungarians participate in Easter Sprinkling?  None of these practices are harming people.  I think people should be happy they have the opportunity to observe and learn about these customs first hand without having to travel to several different countries. 

Well, we will see when the street signs all have 18 languages on them, foreign laws begin to take root here, and such as so forth. I really don't think anyone cares a whole lot what day a person spends to celebrate the new year, or how many times a day someone prays to their god or even bubblewrap. When the cultural conflicts and poor practices of other nationalities are brought here, it should be a concern to everyone. Let's imagine this nation as a non-English speaking country. Where does that leave our English traditions and laws? Whose courts replace them?

Often people come to have negative about certain groups or group practices because they are identified in the media.  How often do we hear about Asian gangs or Muslim radicals?  How come we hardly ever hear about Caucasian gangs or Christian extremists?  It is not the ethnic group or religious group that commits crimes.

Asian is not just a race. It is also describing people of a region. When gangs come from this region and are spread throughout Asia, what would you call them? If you do not like what they are grouped as, you can always petition the media and ask them to consider a different phrasing. "Christian extremists"? Well, considering what bleeds leads in the media. Christian extremists would have to murder someone. That's why you'll likely only hear of them in abortion clinic bombings. Where religion is the prime motivator in their crimes. Caucasian gangs? Like the Hells Angels? We hear plenty of them. No, they're not indentified as a Caucasian gang because they've been singled out for even more scrutiny. What Asian gangs do you know of? There are plenty to go around. Yet, because they are merely identified as "Asian gangs" they do not get as much scrutiny, even though they are generally (oh no, a generalization!) more dangerous and violent than the locally bred yobs.

Perhaps some criminals or murderers or suicide bombers happen to belong to certain ethnic or religious groups.  But That is not what make them criminals.

This one I'll need a little bit of explaining. How are criminals, murderers and suicide bombers not criminals? Or do you mean that the individuals do not encapsulate the broader ethnic group?

It is people who believe they are superior or self-righteous, people who cannot tolerate dissenting views that become dangerous...because they are the fanatics who will do anything to make others conform to one ideal!

Really? That's interesting. If we consider how most ideologies and cultures have their own superiority complex, by nature of their existence. Why would you pick a certain religion if you did not believe it to be the best? If you do not believe any religion to be the best, then clearly you believe that is the superior position to take. We all like better things and aspire to better ourselves (and in some cases, others as well). The very nature of multiculturalism is the creation of islands of people who refuse to adopt other peoples traditions and values because they believe theirs are superior. While it is those "caucasian/Christian extremists" that tolerate all of this, in Canada. So please, let's keep race out of this equation, because it's simply not important. Culture is seperate from race. It is the continual effort of those currently in power to keep them intertwined so that anyone who is opposed to importing all cultures can be branded as a racist. Which is simply not true.

I don't want Asian gangs here anymore than I want the Hells Angels or whatever Nazi party. I do want to be able to communicate with people in my country in the official languages, does that make me a racist? I do want *tolerance* to be a major infuence by not importing INtolerance. I do want to preserve law, order and our English customs of justice by not importing people who refuse to preserve this. I don't care what type of nachos or music people bring. I do care that their values (as adjusted by whatever political or religious affiliation) are not toxic to the well-being of the nation. I also do not believe we should slam the doors shut on people who truely believe the causes of our country and feel kinship to the people who reside in it. Does that make me a racist?

 

[Guest]

While it is those "caucasian/Christian extremists" that tolerate all of this, in Canada. So please, let's keep race out of this equation, because it's simply not important.

I am assuming the above was said with sarcasm.

I will have to differ with you on that because extremists do not tolerate minorities; but they do sympathize with terrorist groups like the KKK (Yes I consider them terrorists). It is because an overhwhelming majority of Canadians who are liberal, peaceloving, dont give a ***t about religion, color of skin, or ethnic background and as a result Canada is what it is today: a forward looking icon and torch-bearer of democratic values that people of all nations can look upto. It's no thanks to people of extremist views, but rather thanks to visionaries of the past who by no means were religious fanatics.

IMHO an overwhelming majority of people who immigrate to Canada from other countries do not like to be hyphenated Canadians, and would rather be mainstream as any other Canadian who cannot be described with a hyphenation. I agree that naming gangs as representative of a particular culture is abhorrent and smacks of passive intolerance. As was mentioned earlier, good examples of these ignorant remarks can be seen when generalizing a small proportion of a particular community as "Asian-gangs" or "Hispanic gangs"...or Indo-Canadian gangs....so on and so forth to make it look as if the whole group of people from that origin are somehow responsible for the actions of the criminals, or in some rare cases that they share the criminals' views.

A question was raised about what the criminals should be called if not by the name from which countries or regions the thugs originated from. I am suggesting that they be called by what their gangs are called. Surely every gang has a name. If we call the KKK by their gang name -thats what they are: a gang; not an organization or a group; not a white christain fundamentalist group because thats the gist of my argument- it implies that all people who are percieved as belonging to the "white christian" category share the twisted views of KKK, which is just not the case; even though I would like to add a few more adjectives like murderers and thugs when describing an gang like the KKK) why should we not call other criminals by their names? but rather it gives a false sense of superiority to people who like to demean other cultures by focusing on anomalies like these gangs and criminals, which every culture has a small proportion of

peace to all

 

[Fishbone Jones]

IMHO an overwhelming majority of people who immigrate to Canada from other countries do not like to be hyphenated Canadians, and would rather be mainstream as any other Canadian who cannot be described with a hyphenation. I agree that naming gangs as representative of a particular culture is abhorrent and smacks of passive intolerance. As was mentioned earlier, good examples of these ignorant remarks can be seen when generalizing a small proportion of a particular community as "Asian-gangs" or "Hispanic gangs"...or Indo-Canadian gangs....so on and so forth to make it look as if the whole group of people from that origin are somehow responsible for the actions of the criminals, or in some rare cases that they share the criminals' views.

Then perhaps it's time those cultures and communities pull their heads out of their asses and start policing their own. They know they exist, where they are, who's involved, but refuse to help the police break them up. As well, it is the gangs themselves that identify along these lines, who are we to argue. If they reflect negatively on the culture, see my first point.

Once again, the touchy feely lieberalism is creeping in. I did not create the situation, nor am I responsible for their plight. I will bend over backwards for those that genuinely require, want and seek out effective solutions. What I won't be is blamed, for the situations of those that refuse to help themselves first.

 

[Cdn Blackshirt]

Just my two cents, but I think we have to be very careful of two things:
1)  The culture immigrants bring with them - sorry, I'm not looking to add to our population groups that think smoking dope and stealing, or that Jews are descended from pigs and dogs, are acceptable beliefs.  More to the point, I think we as a society need to have a frank discussion about some of these things and at some point need to say "No, sorry we're not interested you....perhaps you can find another country that's interested in your point of view."
2)  How our system then integrates all immigrants.  I have specific concerns with the large sections of muslim communities who for all intents and purposes do not integrate at all.  Instead they stay completely separate maintaining their bigoted outlooks in privacy, but then are very active in utilising their votes to influence public policy (you'll notice how the Liberal Party foreign policy changed as the number of Muslims began exceeding the number of Jews in the late-80's).  More to the point, I believe that there should be one public school system (fixing it is a different matter) for all Canadian youth whether rich or poor or anything else.  I further believe that team-building exercises where the Jewish kid and Lebanese kid are paired along with a Serbian kid and a Croatian kid on a Science Fair project.  In short, that most bigoted beliefs can only exists in a vacuum of ignorance.  Force people who have those beliefs to work together and very quickly they realize they're not so different after all.  In short, if we're going to allow massive immigration, we need to be more deliberate in using our education system in order to socially-engineer the type of adults we want them to grow into.  That has to do with tolerance, but quite frankly has just as much to do with selflessness, hard work, personal responsibility, etc.


Matthew. 

 

[Michael OLeary]

I don't quite understand, is your proposed "social engineering" supposed to:

a.    change the immigrants you would allow into the country into "Canadians" in your preferred image?

...using our education system in order to socially-engineer the type of adults we want them to grow into ...

OR

b.  improve the understanding of Canadians for greater acceptance of diversity?

That has to do with tolerance, but quite frankly has just as much to do with selflessness, hard work, personal responsibility, etc.

Who are you trying to educate?  What, exactly, are you trying to "socially enginer"?

 

[orange.paint]

What I always laugh at is my family.My wife 1 gen Canadian me 2nd generation.We are both white Anglo saxton.Her family from cardiff mine from Devon.Automatically we are accepted as "true" Canadians while Abdul who owns a carpet store in Ottawa who's family has been here for 6 generations is less accepted.We all bring our own distinct culture where ever we go.

Me and my wife celebrate "guy fox night" on November The 5th,although when you tell other Anglos in Ontario about it they look at you like you have 3 heads.What makes my holiday acceptable?(It involves large bonfires burning stuffed dummies)Now if there were a bunch of "coloured" immigrants on a beach burning fake people on a fire how would this resinate through-out our news net?

I believe a lot of our problems is fear for what we do not know.Misunderstanding what we see due to sheer ignorance of others culture.Do I agree with racial gangs?No. But why do people fear large groups of people of certain descents hanging out in groups?We make our acquaintances with people of similar ethos and values,and most of the time it involves culture background as a commonality.

Cheers
my 2 cents worth

 

[Cdn Blackshirt]

To Micheal....

I guess I need to clarify....

Two Steps:
1)  Be more selective into who we allow into the country so that if their values run directly contrary to what we determine to be "Canadian values", then they need not apply. 

2)  Once individuals have made it through that first screening and are accepted as immigrants, ensure that the education system is used to remove whatever remaining intolerant attitudes may remain as part of the historical culture, so that the next generation comes arrives into adulthood with the same set of core beliefs as someone who is 5th or 6th generation Canadian. 

In addition to the focus on tolerance, I believe schools should go beyond teaching math, science, english, etc., and should teach basic values such as teamwork, selflessness, diligence, personal responsibility, etc. 



Matthew. 

 

[Hot Lips]

Here, here Matthew...

HL