Military Making Pitch to Aboriginal Youth ($1,200 bonus for aboriginals)

[Loachman]

Did you protest the pilots who actually DID get signing bonuses for doing exactly ZERO more than any other person who enlisted?

This 1200 bucks came with a caveat - and they actually got "paid" for successfully doing something that pilots, et you & me didn't do; that's a huge difference.

To be clear, the signing bonuses aimed at us were targetted at Captains and Majors with fifteen to twenty years of experience, and during a time of great desperation. Anyone with less got nothing. Therefore, something was done "successfully" in order to be eligible.

There was a caveat, too - five years of restricted release, which is why so few took the money. We did not consider the loss of career freedom worth it.

Now, if they'd only issued leather jackets like the USAF and USN did...

 

[armyvern]

To be clear, the signing bonuses aimed at us were targetted at Captains and Majors with fifteen to twenty years of experience, and during a time of great desperation. Anyone with less got nothing. Therefore, something was done "successfully" in order to b eligible.

There was a caveat, too - five years of restricted release, which is why so few took the money. We did not consider the loss of career freedom worth it.

Now, if they'd only had issued leather jackets like the USAF and USN did...

Absolutely they were - as per my last post.

But, in the days of all this ... the CF simply refused to voluntarily release some pers of other trades as we couldn't afford to lose them. The CF held them to their contracts.

Many of the pilots pulling pin for the much greener (then) civ world of flying were those who put in VRs too ... the CF then offered them up a bonus to stay (with the 5 year caveat) ... but simply could have "denied their request for VR" just like they did to the troops who trades were in demand.

To be clear, I had no issues with the pilots getting signing bonus so that we could retain them (again, see my last post), but there was even a double standard to that in that while they recd bonus' friends of mine were simply told "VR not accepted due to operational requirements. Too bad, so sad."

 

[ballz]

Ballz, they got paid a bonus to extend their contract. Plain and simple. I sure didn't get paid that to extend my contract.

Why? Because they were in short supply. That justified it, but they didn't do anything special to earn it other than re-sign on the line. Their actual everyday paycheck already accounts for their "actual quals" and pilot specs. Same with docs. Same with any other trade that receives spec pay - that's why they get spec pay. That's got zero to do with receiving a signing bonus simply to re-sign their contract.

Hmmm, I'll admit I was confused. Thank you for clearing up what you were saying.

Given this 15-20 year experience requirement though, and the required extension with set restrictions, I kinda see it as more of a retention package, which I see alllllll the time in Fort McMurray where people are in demand. Besides, if their contract was up, there certainly was nothing stopping them from going over to Air Canada and getting paid a lot more money for the same job (because they were in high demand....).

Either way, I don't see how race/ethnicity issues transfer over to skilled labour issues. A B.Sc or B.Ed holder has the same level of education as a B.Eng or B.Comm holder, but the former probably won't get paid as much as the latter with all things held equal, simply because Accountants and Engineers are in higher demand.

I don't see how Aboriginal soldiers are in higher demand than any other ethnicity of soldier.

Vern:

Just reading the last two posts... I have no idea of much of this obviously, but could your peers have been refused a VR because they were only in short-term demand, where as pilots they knew would be in demand well after their contracts ran out?

Seems weird, and clearly unfair, and hey, I'm only advocating fairness, and certainly not trying to say that the Government/DND does a good job of it.

 

[Jarnhamar]

I don't see how Aboriginal soldiers are in higher demand than any other ethnicity of soldier.

Someone correct me if I'm wrong.
The human rights commission  decided that Canada only has 5% aboriginals in uniform and they want to see 15%  (numbers just made up) aboriginals in uniform and said to the CF- get more Native Canadians.  Only having 5% makes us look bad.

The CF in turn offers a pre-basic training course to both entice members to join AND to help prepare them for basic training and increase the likelihood of them passing.

Aboriginal soldiers may be in high demand this year however next year it can be anyone whom the Human rights dudes feel are underrepresented.
Different races, sexual orientation etc.. may find themselves enticed to join the Canadian Forces because the HR group feels they are under represented. Having a magic number of X% of Y race = a well balanced military force.

 

[ballz]

From what I gather, it was the military that decided that 5% wasn't enough.

From a brief look at StatsCan's web site, 2001 census data indicate about 4.5% of Canadians claimed North American Indian or Metis heritage.  Unless the population balance has shifted violently in the past four years, a 5% representation in the CF would be _over-representation_.  Is that still a problem, or is the 5% figure cited incorrect?

And then that would suggest it never was a problem anyway. (Keep thread started in 2005 and that quote is from 2005)

 

[armyvern]

Hmmm, I'll admit I was confused. Thank you for clearing up what you were saying.

Given this 15-20 year experience requirement though, and the required extension with set restrictions, I kinda see it as more of a retention package, which I see alllllll the time in Fort McMurray where people are in demand. Besides, if their contract was up, there certainly was nothing stopping them from going over to Air Canada and getting paid a lot more money for the same job (because they were in high demand....).

Either way, I don't see how race/ethnicity issues transfer over to skilled labour issues. A B.Sc or B.Ed holder has the same level of education as a B.Eng or B.Comm holder, but the former probably won't get paid as much as the latter with all things held equal, simply because Accountants and Engineers are in higher demand.

I don't see how Aboriginal soldiers are in higher demand than any other ethnicity of soldier.

Vern:

Just reading the last two posts... I have no idea of much of this obviously, but could your peers have been refused a VR because they were only in short-term demand, where as pilots they knew would be in demand well after their contracts ran out?

Seems weird, and clearly unfair, and hey, I'm only advocating fairness, and certainly not trying to say that the Government/DND does a good job of it.

Not all pilots were releasing (putting in VRs) at points where their contracts were up ... many were doing so to head to the higher paying greener civ pastures. We needed to retain them.

As for "short-term" need of the others I spoke of ... it was not so much of a short term need, but that the CF had just gone through FRP releasing shitloads of pers and zero recruiting, then the crap hit the fan in the Balkans and other areas and we needed those pers for the foreseeable future. But, at the same time, our trades were also in demand on civvy street and so VRs were going in because those troops were also seeking out the greener pasture ...

But, the CF just said "too bad, operational requirements. VR refused". No signing bonus to stay in for those troops even though they were also in desperate demand. They simply got held to their contracts. I don't beget what the pilots got, what I do beget is that other trades were also in desperate demand and their VR applicants were not treated likewise. Coming to the end of one's contract and being offered incentive to stay is one thing (perhaps THAT is what the CF should be doing now ... for all trades!!) --- offering incentives to stay to another trade pers who was applying for VR while holding others to their contracts when they applied for VR is quite another matter.

 

[armyvern]

From what I gather, it was the military that decided that 5% wasn't enough.

And then that would suggest it never was a problem anyway. (Keep thread started in 2005 and that quote is from 2005)

I think we'd have to know more about the 4.5% Brad quoted. Perhaps that 5% quoted only consisted of those who "claimed status" --- Ie not ArmyChick and the thousands more"non-status" indigenous Canadians like her.

I dunno.

 

[Jarnhamar]

[just a note that 5% number I gave was just an example, it could be 3% and HR wants 25%, just saying it seems about cold numbers to them]

 

[armychick2009]

Army Vern, that's exactly it... right now only status people are included in that number (from what I was advised of) .... as a non-status, I won't be included in those final numbers I believe... unless they are changing things around to people who self-identify.


Loachman... 

"Owned by the government".

You will not be.

You will still be a free citizen, with all of the attendant rights

As soon as I join the forces, I will not be able to continue my work on the international or even the national level with regards human rights, indigenous people's rights, and other stuff I am working on. This includes work I have done at the United Nations and the ICC. This is due to the fact I have to remain non-partisan and not be able to affiliate myself with any particular political party or non-political party (if you understand aboriginal politics across Canada, you'll may understand why this could be an issue... PM me if you need me to clarify this part. It's not something I really want to delve into on this post as it's not really related to the topic at hand). So, the gist of it is... I can't continue the work I am doing now due to the oath/allegiance that I have  (or will do, at my swearing in)... but, this is an acceptable loss for me as there are others who can continue the work I have participated in.

So, in that sense? I'm owned

 

[ballz]

FD: The 5% is from the OP

Vern:

OK, some trades got screwed for absolutely no reason. You've supported it, I believe you, we're on the same page.

Now, what is your opinion on THIS issue that you were originally trying to get at before this got derailed, and what is the comparison with what you were just talking about. Do you think this Aboriginal thing is good, bad, unfair, fair, or is it fair because people have been treated unfairly before so the more the merrier?

I just don't get what it is that you're trying to get at with this Pilot's thing, other than the CF was unfair before with a few people so it shouldn't be a surprise they're being unfair now?

 

[armyvern]

I just don't get what it is that you're trying to get at with this Pilot's thing, other than the CF was unfair before with a few people so it shouldn't be a surprise they're being unfair now?

I got at the pilot thing because some were insisting that these indigenous pers were paid a signing bonus. They were not. They were paid to complete (successfully at that) a pre-recruitment course.

Pilots got paid a signing/retention bonus ... (with a 5 year caveat), many of whom were VRing prior to their contract being up. Other pers in same circumstances did not get paid a "signing/retention bonus" (even with a 5 year caveat) they, instead, just got held to their contracts ... and that actually a "siging bonus makes" for those pilots who recd but who were not at end of their contracts but were rather just VRing the same as the troops were.

They ARE NOT being unfair now, these indigenous pers got paid ... for working, not for signing anything.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

We aren't supposed to treat anybody different because of race, color, etc.  Right?

Seems to me that is what is happening here.  So...what next?  There isn't enough Cpl's in trade X that are racial background Y, so only people from background Y will be promoted??

:

 

[armyvern]

Oh my. How hard it is for some people to view things in the grand scheme of things.

These kids didn't take away a single posn from anyone else. They were paid to (successfully) undergo a "pre-recruitment" course after which they may/may not have chosen to join the CF. They didn't affect quotas, they didn't take Pte "Xs" job chances away --- nada.

They didn't step on anyone's toes and they got paid for working. I certainly have no issues with that.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

So, for argument sakes, if someone came up with a program where only white, english speaking Canadians were eligible, no one would have any problem with that?

I can see those news headlines now.  >

 

[ballz]

They ARE NOT being unfair now, these indigenous pers got paid ... for working, not for signing anything.

Yes but this opportunity is being given based on them being Aboriginal... that is unfair.

And obviously there's Aboriginal people that want to take advantage of the opportunity, so there is probably other people that do too, but can't, and why not? What reason can the military give them to deny them that opportunity that they are giving to Aboriginals?

Tell me how that's fair. I think it's quite simply un-Canadian and rather embarrassing.

Vern: I'm glad you said they "didn't take a single position from anyone else." Because I disagree.

In the case of a well-off, or not-so-bad-off Aboriginal, they are taking away a position from a not-so-well-off (insert random demographic here)? And based on what? Not based on a competitive application. Not based on who needs the opportunity the most.

 

[armyvern]

Vern: I'm glad you said they "didn't take a single position from anyone else." Because I disagree.

In the case of a well-off, or not-so-bad-off Aboriginal, they are taking away a position from a not-so-well-off (insert random demographic here)? And based on what? Not based on a competitive application. Not based on who needs the opportunity the most.

Really, not one of them were guaranteed a posn in the CF. Nor were any one of them obligated to take a spot in the CF.

How then, did they take posns away from someone else?

 

[ballz]

They took away a position at that 3 week trial thinger is what I was talking about.

Also, I get the feeling that if someone goes through that 3 week thing and gets paid 1200 dollars for it the CF is not going to turn them down if they apply...

 

[Eye In The Sky]

So, for argument sakes, if someone came up with a program where only white, english speaking Canadians were eligible, no one would have any problem with that?

I can see those news headlines now.  >

AV,

You skipped or missed this question, but I'd like to see your answer. 

 

[armyvern]

Ballz, I suppose that you'd actually be surprised to learn that I have PMd with Armychick earlier today, and that I actually believe this program "didn't go far enough".

I told her that the only issue that I had with this program was that it didn't go far enough, that I'd liked to have seen it offered on a far-wider spectrum than it actually was ... that I'd liked to have seen the opportunity offered to our disadvantged youth accross the nation, no matter their creed, race, colour, sexuality etc. That I believed this program went a long way towards the betterment of Canadian youth by both boosting self-confidence levels and by providing an insight into ways in which disadvantaged youth could go about breaking out of the cycle of poverty etc.

I also told her, that I never thought that THAT would happen though --- only because if it did, we'd have a bunch of liberal-assed left wing treehugging hippocrates [mostly from Moronto & BC] who would then scream about how:

"The CF and the government is seducing our underprivledged and under-educated kids and "forcing them" into joining the CF so that they can send them over there to die as cannon fodder."

And, don't kid yourself for one minute into thinking they wouldn't scream such - even if - exactly how it was for these indigenous people - they were under NO obligation to serve upon completion of said pre-recruitment course.

You see, there is a big picture out there - and it isn't all about the CF. It was a trial. A trial implies that only a certain segment gets chosen to participate. Much exactly like the CF trial on chest-rigs ... only "some" get to play.

 

[armyvern]

AV,

You skipped or missed this question, but I'd like to see your answer. 

I believe that I more than cover it in my last post ... you think left wing tards scream murder now ... just wait for it.

apologize that my post wasn't, apparently, quick enough for you.