Military Making Pitch to Aboriginal Youth ($1,200 bonus for aboriginals)

[armychick2009]

Ballz, I didn't take a position away from anyone. None of these pre-recruits were guranteed a position. ALL who decided to join, went through their interviews down there. This is for logistics... does a recruiter want to fly up to middle of no-where northern Quebec to interview someone for a position? May as well do it while they are already down in an accessible location.

My interview was done back in North Bay. I didn't get to jump any queues. I'm not guaranteed my trade. I interviewed for my trade like everyone else. I got scored, like everyone else.

Without going into confidentiality (re, particular candidates), I will assure, not ALL who attended were suitable for employment. The army knows this, the recruit knew this. And this is where the army covers their arse by having all recruits be interviewed. If they don't pass the interview and aren't acceptable for a trade? Then they go home. We all had to do the CFAT... some of us didn't finish it. We are given a second chance... like ALL recruits ... to do it to pass. There's umpteen million threads for this.

So, if I applied for the same job you applied for... and I got it... I got it because I earned it... not because it was handed to me on a silver platter, believe me!

I'm fighting for my particular NCM trade(with maybe 1-5 positions, if lucky this year) against about 800 applicants. So... don't you worry. I'll only be taking the job away from someone else because I was more suited and qualified for it.... just like how I have ever received a job offer in the past. Hard work.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

AV, and others too,

For the record, I am neither for or against this program.  I am, however, not a fan of anything where individuals of a certain race/ethnic background are made "special".  I strongly believe that the person who gets any job should be the best person for that job.

I don't believe in politically-oriented people quoates.  They, IMO, do exactly what the government and PC society we live in today are claiming is not tolerable;  setting a certain group of people(s) apart from everyone else because of color or race. 

:2c:

 

[aesop081]

I don't believe in politically-oriented people quoates. 

Neither do i, but i do beleive in following the law. Unless that law gets changed......

Some people comenting on this realy need to take some training on diversity and employment equity legislation before opening their yap too wide.

 

[ballz]

"The CF and the government is seducing our underprivledged and under-educated kids and "forcing them" into joining the CF so that they can send them over there to die as cannon fodder."

And, don't kid yourself for one minute into thinking they wouldn't scream such

You know, I've been given a blast of shit a few times by the powers that be around here for not reading entire threads.

Here is what I said just before you showed up:

"Perhaps this 3 week opportunity for 1200 dollars should be offered to all people who are living in poverty, regardless of whether it's on a reserve or in a back alley in MTL. EDIT: Oh wait... This would be military recruiting poverty and would be "immoral?" "

Sounds a lot like what you said in your PM eh? Maybe I'm not such a tard afterall.

If believing in equality makes me a left-wing tard, then so be it. I'll just go sit over in the corner of the rubber room with the rest of the tards that think handing out money and opportunities to people based on their ethnicity and nothing else is retarded.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

I believe that I more than cover it in my last post ... you think left wing tards scream murder now ... just wait for it.

Yes you, the 2nd para was bang on IMO.

apologize that my post wasn't, apparently, quick enough for you.

I just thought maybe you'd missed with the back-and-forth with Ballz  8)

or....

that you thought...GFY EITS  :blotto:

 

[Michael OLeary]

OK, so it's $1200 per eligible candidate.  I have a few questions:

1. Taking the Recruiting System in total, i.e., all parts that come into play up to the signing of an enrollment form, what do we spend per applicant across the country (whether or not they sign)?

2. As a cost effective Recruiting tool, how does this compare to the Snowbirds (which are often promoted as a recruiting tool)?

3. If this program is canceled, will my taxes go down?  By how much?

4. Should I be more or less concerned about this than the delay in issuing new rucksacks because it takes three days to train an NCO to fit the frames to individual soldiers?

 

[armyvern]

You know, I've been given a blast of shit a few times by the powers that be around here for not reading entire threads.

Here is what I said just before you showed up:

"Perhaps this 3 week opportunity for 1200 dollars should be offered to all people who are living in poverty, regardless of whether it's on a reserve or in a back alley in MTL. EDIT: Oh wait... This would be military recruiting poverty and would be "immoral?" "

Sounds a lot like what you said in your PM eh? Maybe I'm not such a tard afterall.

If believing in equality makes me a left-wing tard, then so be it. I'll just go sit over in the corner of the rubber room with the rest of the tards that think handing out money and opportunities to people based on their ethnicity and nothing else is retarded.

1) I didn't call you a tard. My ref to liberal tards is all those far left liberal treehugging tards who find anything they can to scream blue murder about when it comes to the CF. I also thought that was quite clear in the context of my post --- apparently not;

2) My PM as I outlined my stance below was sent before your post about "immoralality".  (thus, your point about me "not reading" means squat to me) and

3) You asked what my thoughts were on "offering to other minorities etc" and that is exactly why I posted my sentiments that I had sent via PM to Armychick.

 

[Kat Stevens]

I'm thinking everyone needs to pull their quills in a bit and stop taking internet babble so personally.

 

[Jarnhamar]

We aren't supposed to treat anybody different because of race, color, etc.  Right?

Seems to me that is what is happening here.  So...what next?  There isn't enough Cpl's in trade X that are racial background Y, so only people from background Y will be promoted??

:

Bingo

Oh my. How hard it is for some people to view things in the grand scheme of things.

These kids didn't take away a single posn from anyone else. They were paid to (successfully) undergo a "pre-recruitment" course after which they may/may not have chosen to join the CF. They didn't affect quotas, they didn't take Pte "Xs" job chances away --- nada.

They didn't step on anyone's toes and they got paid for working. I certainly have no issues with that.

The issue with this is that some feel Aboriginals getting singled out for this and not other races etc.. is unfair.
If whites (only) were given access to a pre-recruitment package and paid $1200 do you think anyone would be up in arms over it?

 

[armyvern]

The issue with this is that some feel Aboriginals getting singled out for this and not other races etc.. is unfair.
If whites (only) were given access to a pre-recruitment package and paid $1200 do you think anyone would be up in arms over it?

Absolutely some would have issues with it. Just as "Platoon X" had issues with it when they had to use tac vests in theatre because they were not part of the "trial" group who was chosen to use chest rigs. Just because some get up in arms about it, doesn't mean there isn't a bonified "good intention" behind the trial. It was a minority trial ... ergo a minority group got chosen - they happened to be aboriginals, not white. Should we run red-headed female trials next? I think I'm a minority --- ergo would that qualify?

Was platoon X therefore discriminated agianst?

You'd think you guys would be out doing something about pharmaceutical companies "doing trials on how drug X affects WASP men aged 40" or something because your own particular demographic wasn't chosen for the study and trial ... trials for white folks happen too. This one, just didn't happen to be one of those.

 

[ballz]

This is a trial? I was under the impression they've been doing this for 5 years now?

 

[Remius]

Well, where to start.

My previous job had me promoting this program among many more.  Raven, Bold Eagle, ALOY etc.  The fact is that the Canadian Forces has targetted groups in its diversity policy.  Women, Aboriginals and Visible minorities.  Disabled people and sexual orientation are not targets.  There are no quotas.  Only targets.  Various means are used to achieve these targets or at least attempt to achieve them.  The various aboriginal programs are designed to attract mroe aboriginals to the CF.  CFAEP is designed to give aboriginals a taste of military life and to help them achieve success on basic training further down the road.  No one is given a free pass when they take this course.  CFAT must be passed, drug policy adhered to, PT and medical.  Just like anyone else.  Also, we probably save some money in the long run.  For example, an Inuit girl went on CFAEP and figured the military wasn't for her.  Why?  Trees.  Yes trees.  No trees where she was from.  Freaked her out.  How much more money would it have cost if she had signed up gone to St-Jean only to figure that out when she got there?  This is an extreme example but the fact is that the program is designed to help aboriginals transition and be successful if they wish to pursue a career in the CF.  The cultural divide (depending on where they are from) is in some cases staggering.  And no, it has nothing to do with poverty.  No different than a reservist trying that first then making the jump (21 days of basic, no obligation, paid as well). 

We spend a lot of money on targetting Women and Visible Minorities as well.  The point is to attract them and inform them of their options.  We are below the numbers set out for us.  The CF should be proud that it is trying to do so without setting quotas.  Now my numbers might be out of date but Aboriginals were one of the target groups we actually have success in trying to reach our targets, the others, not so much. 

 

[Forgotten_Hero]

Just like anyone else.  Also, we probably save some money in the long run.  For example, an Inuit girl went on CFAEP and figured the military wasn't for her.  Why?  Trees.  Yes trees.  No trees where she was from.  Freaked her out.  How much more money would it have cost if she had signed up gone to St-Jean only to figure that out when she got there?

What about a city boy from Toronto that joins and realises he doesnt like the forrest? Can he do the same?

 

[aesop081]

What about a city boy from Toronto that joins and realises he doesnt like the forrest? Can he do the same?

As i said before, you need to go and read and take training on diversity and employment equity legislation.

These are not military rules, they are Canadian Law. "City boy from Toronto" is not on the list for EE laws. The CF must work within the law.

I'm not a big fan of these policies either but at least i made an effort to learn the law since i have to work within in.

 

[Remius]

What about a city boy from Toronto that joins and realises he doesnt like the forrest? Can he do the same?

I think you already know the answer to that.  The cultural barriers that some aboriginals have are somewhat different than a city boy coming from Toronto.  Don't even try and compare the two.

The CF more than any other fedral organisation is taking a proactive approach to this.  Is the cost and effort to run this course worth the return?  Probably not.  Only a small proportion of those that attend enroll.  Not suprising though.  On a normal three to one ratio a course of 30 applicants, only ten make it through to training.  But recruiting for aboriginals presents a whole series of problems that do not fit into traditional recruiting and that number is smaller.  The thing is that we can't just look at a dollar for dollar value when we talk about recruiting for various targeted diversity groups.  But from a diversity perspective, the program is successful.  So successful that it has expanded to include reserves, naval reserves and RMC in similar programs.  What we really need to see is how many pass BMQ having gone through the CFAEP programs.   

 

[dapaterson]

There's a less altrusitic reason to do these things as well.

Canada's demographics are changing.  Making efforts now to reach out to communities that are under-represented in the CF should mean increased success in the future.  And as the aborigianl population in Canada is exapnding much more quickly than others, reaching out there is just good forward planning.


Interesting that we have yet to consider dedicated infantry Bns with First Nation heritages or traditions; in WWI and WWII we exploited British traditions and stood up Highland and Irish regiments...

 

[Forgotten_Hero]

As i said before, you need to go and read and take training on diversity and employment equity legislation.

These are not military rules, they are Canadian Law. "City boy from Toronto" is not on the list for EE laws. The CF must work within the law.

Perhaps I am not so much against the CF following the law but the law itself?

I think you already know the answer to that.  The cultural barriers that some aboriginals have are somewhat different than a city boy coming from Toronto.  Don't even try and compare the two.

The CF more than any other fedral organisation is taking a proactive approach to this.  Is the cost and effort to run this course worth the return?  Probably not.  Only a small proportion of those that attend enroll.  Not suprising though.  On a normal three to one ratio a course of 30 applicants, only ten make it through to training.  But recruiting for aboriginals presents a whole series of problems that do not fit into traditional recruiting and that number is smaller.  The thing is that we can't just look at a dollar for dollar value when we talk about recruiting for various targeted diversity groups.  But from a diversity perspective, the program is successful.  So successful that it has expanded to include reserves, naval reserves and RMC in similar programs.  What we really need to see is how many pass BMQ having gone through the CFAEP programs.   

I am not so uptight about the money side of this situation. My thoughts on the subject are, however, that if you want to stop discriminating based on race or culture, stop seeing people based on their race and culture.

I find it a bit contradictory to basically say "Hey, we're not racist. See? We hired that black guy, and that native." I think that only when we stop identifying people as part of a certain race will we truly help eliminate discrimination.

 

[aesop081]

Perhaps I am not so much against the CF following the law but the law itself?

Take it up with your MP. The CF is obligated to follow the law. The point that we have to set ourselves up for success later ( by making progress with growing segments of the population) does have some merit, however.

 

[armyvern]

I find it a bit contradictory to basically say "Hey, we're not racist. See? We hired that black guy, and that native." I think that only when we stop identifying people as part of a certain race will we truly help eliminate discrimination.

Perhaps you're looking at it the wrong way then. How about you look at it this way:

"Hey, we're not racist, we're actually quite good at adapting to diverse demographics ... don't believe us? Come on out and try this as a sample of what we have to offer to you and, if you're impressed, tell your friends."

The lens one wears upon their eyes sometimes carry with them the ability to tint things a different colour. try looking at it through other colours sometimes ... you may just find yourself pleasantly surprised.

 

[Forgotten_Hero]

"Hey, we're not racist, we're actually quite good at adapting to diverse demographics ... don't believe us? Come on out and try this as a sample of what we have to offer to you and, if you're impressed, tell your friends."

I do agree that it could work, but I cant support it from an ethical perspective unless my neighbour has the same opportunity to "test drive" the CF as an aboriginal.

Maybe someone could clarify something else for me aswell. The aboriginals on these types of courses, are they only from reservations, or not? I heard plenty of people say that its a good way to, well, help the aboriginals stay away from the problems on some of these reservations, so is it only limited to them?

The lens one wears upon their eyes sometimes carry with them the ability to tint things a different colour. try looking at it through other colours sometimes ... you may just find yourself pleasantly surprised.

The same can be said for either side though. I'd like to think that I did attempt to see things through other colours, but no one, not even myself, can say objectively whether thats true or not.