Logistics Officer - Sea [Merged]

[meni0n]

I went to CFSAL web site and browsed thru all the speciality courses offered for Logistics officers but I couldn't find one for admin. Is an admin officer at a unit really just a position that any log o can fill or do they have to be filled with someone who took a specific speciality course like HRM?

 

[srhodes]

I am not a recruiter, but it is my understanding that the min. initial contract requirement for Log Officer (DEO) is 6 years.  :christmas happy:

 

[George Wallace]

I am not a recruiter, but it is my understanding that the min. initial contract requirement for Log Officer (DEO) is 6 years.  :christmas happy:

Which applies only if one is to enter the Regular Force.  There is no such commitment required for the Reserves, although it may take that long to become qualified.    >

 

[Otis]

I AM a recruiter, and the minimum contract for Direct Entry Logistics Officer for the Regular Force IS  6 years.

 

[nick_the_guy]

Where did you see a list of specialty courses? I'm interested in seeing it. To me, administration is a very broad definition meaning management. All of the specializations listed in recruiting information (i.e. Finance, HRM, Supply Chain, Transport and Food Services) represent how the Canadian Forces group functions that would ultimately require administration.

 

[Aerobicrunner]

Available to those who have DIN:
http://hr.ottawa-hull.mil.ca/dgmp/dpgr/engraph/specifications/report_occ_e.asp?sec=2&mosid=00328

 

[nick_the_guy]

Denied! I'm not in the military currently but thanks for the link.

 

[Monsoon]

There actually used to be a distinct officer trade called Pers Admin that was responsible for some of the sort of things you might associate with human resources in a civilian organization It was merged with the Logistics trade in the late 90s. There are various takes on the meaningfulness of Pers Admin as a separate trade, but I, for one, haven't heard anyone complain that it shouldn't have been merged.

That being said, admin in the broad sense it's generally used refers to a variety of management support functions that will vary from one type of unit to the next. For instance, at my unit the AdminO hasn't been a Logistics officer in recent memory, though there would be nothing stopping that. For us, it's an any-trade job.

 

[Aerobicrunner]

Specialties for Log below.  HRM requirements further below.

Amended Date: 2004/02/01 MOS ID: 00328
Approval Date: 2001/01/01 

Logistics
LOG

Special Force (Mobilization)
00328.3.N.01 Logistics – Air [LOG – AIR]
00328.3.N.02 Logistics – Land [LOG – LAND]
00328.3.N.03 Logistics – Sea [LOG – SEA]
00328.3.N.04 Logistics [LOG]
00328.3.N.05 Logistics – Supply Chain Management [LOG – SCM]
00328.3.N.06 Logistics – Transportation [LOG – TN]
00328.3.N.07 Logistics – Human Resource Management [LOG – HRM]
00328.3.N.08 Logistics – Financial Management [LOG – FIN MGT]
00328.3.N.09 Logistics – Food Services [LOG – FS]

Primary Reserve
00328.2.P.04 Logistics – Air [LOG – AIR]
00328.2.P.05 Logistics – Land [LOG – LAND]
00328.2.P.06 Logistics – Sea Naval Reserve [LOG – SEA NAV RES]

Cadet Instructors Cadre
Not Applicable

Canadian Rangers
Not Applicable

Regular Force
00328.1.N.01 Logistics [LOG]
00328.1.N.02 Logistics – Air [LOG – AIR]
00328.1.N.03 Logistics – Land [LOG – LAND]
00328.1.N.04 Logistics – Sea [LOG – SEA]


Specialty
Unique
AEBH Defense Advanced Traffic Management (US)
AEBI Joint Services Movement Staff (UK)
AEBN Basic Quantitative Methods in Cost Analysis (US)
AEBP Logistics Executive Development
AEBQ Defense Depot Operations Management (US)
AEBR Defense Inventory Management (US)
AEBS Tactical Airlift Support – Ini
AEBU USN Supply Management
AEBW Ocean Transport/Marine Terminal Ops & Ship Loading/Stowage
AEBY Senior Transportation Management
AEBZ Warehouse Operations Management
AECE Material Handling Management
AECI Compensation Administration
AECJ Classification Officer
AECQ Internal Audit Management
AECU Mobile Support Equipment Officer/Special Purpose
AECW Mobile Air Mobility Support Officer
AECZ Supply Officer – Unit
AEDG NICP Management
AEDJ Advanced ABACIS Operation
AEDK Defence Security Assistance Management
AEDL Advanced Logistics
AERA Base Exchange Management
AERO Financial Information Systems
AICN Certified Management Accountant
AIHJ Logistics – Supply Chain Management
AIHK Logistics – Transportation
AIHL Logistics – Human Resource Management
AIHM Logistics – Financial Management
AIHN Logistics – Food Services
AIHR Postal Officer
AIHS Pay Accounting Officer

Common
AEBV Professional Accounting Program
AECV Movement Officer
AEME Land Operations Familiarization
AEUQ Basic Space Operations
AEXN Ammunition Technical Officer
AEXV NATO Advanced Improvised Explosive Device (IED) Disposal
AEXX Explosive Ordnance Disposal (EOD)(NATO) – Advanced
AGHV Defence Packaging Design
AGIR Tactical Airlift Support – Ini
AGIT Tpt and Storage of HAZMAT
AGSI Bio/Chemical Munitions Disposal
AHSB UN and Deployed Ops Log Sp
AHUR Dangerous Goods Certification
AHUS Loadmaster CC130 Hercules
AHYZ (RMS) Deployed Operations
AICB Airline Host Flight Op Sys
AICU Loadmaster Air Dispatch CC130
AICY US Military Std Transport
AIEJ ACE – Logistics Evaluator
AIML Maritime Terminal Operations Controller
AIRC Air Mobility Support Advanced (AMSA)
AJEA Army Tactical Operations - CSS
AJEJ Conventional Munitions Disposal (CMD) - Basic
AJEK Improvised Explosive Device Disposal (IEDD) Operator Assistant
AJFA Improvised Explosive Device Disposal (IEDD) Operator
AJFB Conventional Munitions Disposal (CMD) - Advanced
AJFI NATO Improvised Explosive Device Disposal – NATO IEDD
AJFN TACTICAL DEVICE EXPLOITATION
AJHW Land Force Unit Commanding Officer
AJJN NATO Explosive Ordinance Disposal Operator
AJSY CC177 MAMS LOADING
AKKS Ammunition Engineering Supplement


HRM Specialty

Approval Date: 2009/04/15 A-PD-055-003/PQ-001
SS AIHL
LOGISTICS – HUMAN RESOURCE MANAGEMENT


Military Occupational Structure (MOS)

1. Applicable to the following components (MOS ID):

Special Force (Mobilization)
00328.3.N.01 Logistics – Air [LOG – AIR]
00328.3.N.02 Logistics – Land [LOG – LAND]
00328.3.N.03 Logistics – Sea [LOG – SEA]

Primary Reserve
Not Applicable

Cadet Instructors Cadre
Not Applicable

Canadian Rangers
Not Applicable

Regular Force
00328.1.N.02 Logistics – Air [LOG – AIR]
00328.1.N.03 Logistics – Land [LOG – LAND]
00328.1.N.04 Logistics – Sea [LOG – SEA]

Functional Description
2. Possession of this specialty will enable personnel to manage human resources within the Department of National Defence

Working Conditions
3. The working conditions for this specialty are not more stringent than those listed in the applicable Officer General Specification (OGS) or in the Occupation Specification(s) (OS).

Prerequisite
4. Personnel must meet the following requirements to be selected for this specialty:
a. be Logistics - Sea, or Logistics - Land, or Logistics - Air qualified

Method of Qualification
5. Formal Training Personnel shall be awarded the qualification and achieve certification after completion of a formal course.

 

[QM]

Human Resources (HR) is a sub-specialty of Logistics Officer. Once you are a Logistics Officer you specialize in Supply or Transport or Finance or Food Services. Those are your "base" specialties.  As a young Captain, after or during your first tour of duty in a Unit, you will have the opportunity to take further sub-specialty training such as Postal, Ammo, QM, Movements, and.....HR.

In the Army, HR does not really exist. There are maybe 7 or 8 Army jobs (total 7 or 8 people in green uniforms) who are formally "HR" officers. For the most part, the Army views "administration" and HR as a function of command. So, in an infantry unit, the HR Officer is an infantry officer spending a couple years doing pers admin. In an artillery unit its an artillery officer, even in a CSS unit its a supply officer or an EME officer or a trucker.

The Air Force treats HR quite differently, and HR qualified officers in the Air Force will do the Unit admin, and will command admin organizations as well. Same in the Navy, although the Navy will pressure a guy to become "Sea Logistics" qualified - Supply and Finance specialties. Navy Admin tends to be done by CFR clerks or Sea Log offrs who decided to kill their careers by refusing to go to sea.

So....if you are desperate to do HR in the CF at the Officer level, become an Air Force Log Offr and ask for HR specialty. Otherwise, you will wind up quite dissatisfied.

 

[QM]

Deebs, as an Artillery Officer you will have zero chance of getting funded post-grad for accounting. As well, if you do it on your own dime, the Artillery branch won't give you much credit for your work, as advanced accounting designations are quite useless to them.

As an Logistics Officer, after spending some time in a Finance job, you would have a slim shot at funded post-grad for an advanced accounting designation. But the application process is competitive. If you are a later-transfer into Logistics from another trade, you may not have much of a chance at getting funded post-grad from the Log Branch. They are more likely to send someone who has been a Log Officer from the outset and therefore has a better breadth and depth of employment within the various Logistics/Finance functions that exist in the CF. It may be all just "accounting" to outsiders, but within the Finance world there are specialties, tiers of Comptroller and command positions, more and less desirable types of finance work, etc, that contribute to a well-rounded and broadly-employable finance officer with potential to hold the highest staff and command positions within the Finance world. Its not just education, its experience that matters. And a large chunk of your experience would be in Artillery. And you will be quite a bit older than your new peers. 

You aren't going to be able to spend 10 years having "fun" in the Artillery then just walk across to the Logistics Branch as a Finance Officer, with your career on the same track as an accountant who has done all those Finance jobs at all the levels. Your career is more likely to stop dead in its tracks for a few years, maybe forever. You will be an unknown entity in the Log Branch and although your Artillery experience will be useful in some jobs, overall you simply won't know what you are doing as a Logistician/Finance Officer, you won't have any experience as a Logistician/Finance Officer, and you won't have any senior officers in the Log Branch who know you and are looking out for you. Assuming you have a good head on your shoulders, and depending on when you transfer into Log, you will most likely be able to make Major, and maybe even LCol down the road. But......some jobs and opportunities will be lost to you because of the experience you missed by being an Artillery officer for....a decade or whatever. The Log Branch values occupational transfers (and maybe I'm painting too bleak a picture here), but to obtain post-grad, an Arty Officer who transfers into the Log Branch will be unlikely to unseat a more experienced Finance Officer who has all the requisite check marks over his career and has the potential to become a Log/Finance Colonel or General. But, as I said above, you can still have a productive and enjoyable second career in Finance, it just may not be as full as it could have been, had you joined Finance as a 2Lt.

Also note that no one will force you to transfer from Artillery to Log, no matter what your degree is in. Good luck, whichever way you go.

 

[lea]

Personnel Selection Officer has some HR stuff associated with it.

http://www.forces.ca/html/personnelselectionofficer_reg_en.aspx

 

[exgunnertdo]

Really, our HR capability is split -

"Operators" performing HR roles in units/at bases
Personnel Selection Officers
Training Development Officers http://www.forces.ca/html/trainingdevelopmentofficer_reg_en.aspx
Log HR

There is a study being conducted at DPGR regarding ways to streamline our HR capability.  Looks like the conclusion will be along the lines of status quo, maintaining separate streams of specialization.  But my crystal ball may be cloudy!

 

[nick_the_guy]

I would like to know how long each of the following courses are, I can't seem to find a lot of information on the web. These are the courses listed on the CF recruiting website for logistics officers for the navy:

- Basic Officer Training Course (15 weeks)

- Environmental Officers Common Course (is this the Navy equivalent of the Army Common Phase?)

- Logistics Officer Common Course

- Logistics Sub-Occupational (Environmental) Training (is this an actual course or just on-the-job training? The recruiting website is unclear.)

I also asked in a separate thread the VIE for a logistics officer and was told 5 years. I came across a webpage that says that 3 years is the optimal length and gave a table to assist in determining the length of the VIE. 0-199 training days = 3 year VIE. Is it possible to sign on for 3 years and complete the logistics officer (navy) training (including the 1 year tour of duty)?

http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/pd/pi-ip/05-05-ann-b-eng.asp

 

[gcclarke]

The VIE for LOG officers depends upon the entry plan. For DEO, it's 6 years. For ROTP it's 10 years. Here's your reference. http://www.cmp-cpm.forces.gc.ca/pd/pi-ip/05-05-ann-a1-eng.asp

The Naval Environmental Training Program for Officers (NETPO) lasted 9 weeks when I took it in 2006. I can't really say about any of the other LOG specific courses.

 

[Wookilar]

LOCC (Log Officer Common Course): 35 training days (so add in your weekends and holidays, and there you are).
LOCS  (Log Officer Common Sea): 47 training days.

LOCC usually runs May-Jul, then Specialty course, then Environmental.
I think (but I certainly could be wrong), the Navy guys did Supply and Pay Administration Officer specialties.

Wook

 

[nick_the_guy]

I'm really interested in joining the Canadian Forces as a Logistics Officer and the Navy seems to have the best logistics program (plus I'm really interested in doing some touring on a ship, anywhere). I have a few questions about the training as listed on the CF recruiting website:

http://www.forces.ca/html/logisticsofficer_reg_en.aspx

1) How is the Navy Environmental Common Course compared to the Army? I've been doing a lot of research into the Common Army Phase and I understand it's very physically demanding. How physically demanding is the Navy common course? Is it the same course that MARS officers take (as I have read it is very mentally intensive)?

2) Do you get to pick your intermediate level training? I'm a Certified Management Accountant (CMA) and I'd like to specialize in Finance to start. I'm very keen on learning other aspects of logistics as well as the CMA program focuses on understanding all aspects of business, not just accounting.

3) How many tours on a ship do you have to do? The recruiting website (see link above) says it wants you to become a Ship's Supply Officer as soon as possible but a little further down, it says you'll start as an Assistant Ship's Supply Officer.

4) It also says that you will serve for one year as an Assistant Supply Officer. Does that mean one calendar year or one year worth of time at sea? How long is a typical tour/deployment (at sea) for a logistics officer? Six months? A year?

5) Is the VE negotiable? CF recruiting told me that the logistics officer trade has a 9 year term of service. For the first engagement, is that reasonable? I read on the CF recruiting website that an officer's VIE can be 3-9 years. I wouldn't mind a 5 year VIE but 9 years is a lot to ask considering it's the first contract.

Edit: 6) Ok, really stupid but how good does your swimming have to be? I took swimming lessons about 20 years ago and all I remember how to do is float. I do want to learn to swim again, it's just that right now, the best I can do is doggy paddle.

 

[Jolly Roger]

1) How is the Navy Environmental Common Course compared to the Army? I've been doing a lot of research into the Common Army Phase and I understand it's very physically demanding. How physically demanding is the Navy common course? Is it the same course that MARS officers take (as I have read it is very mentally intensive)?

The course to which you are referring to is known as NETPO. The course is exactly the same for MARS and Logistics officers. The course isn't really meant to be physically demanding at all, there might be a few days on your sea phase where you might do some hands on work, but in no way is it physically demanding. As far as mentally intensive goes, I think you may have mixed up MARS III/IV with NETPO. NETPO is more of a maritime/naval general knowledge course, compared to your phase training which is very career specific.

 

[nick_the_guy]

Thanks Jolly Roger. Yes, the part about mental intensity was taken from what I read/watched regarding the MARS training. I assumed that all officer training was very difficult. Now that I know that the common course is called NETPO, I can check with my recruiter about the curriculum. They were able to provide me with a breakdown of PO for CAP but I did not have anything regarding the Navy.

 

[Pusser]

I'll try to answer your questions in the same order:

1)  As Jolly roger said, the course you're thinking of is now called NETPO.  It's a basic introduction to shipboard life and procedure.  It has a strong emphasis on safety.  The physical parts are the firefighting and damage control, which we take very seriously.  If the ship's on fire or sinking, everybody's having a bad day.  There's is also some liferaft training.  The mental aspects of all this come into play when you're placed in charge and have to coordinate the fighting of the fire, flood, etc.  However, this doesn't stop in NETPO and in fact you will be assessed in this area as long as you continue to go to sea (you also have to do refresher courses every two years).

2)  Naval Logistics Officers initially specialize in both finance and supply as those are the two main areas you need to know in order to be a ship's supply officer.  Once you are certified "AILK" (this doesn't stand for anything - it's just the code we use meaning that you're qualified to go to sea as the Head of the Logistics Department on board) then you can ask to be posted to finance job if you wish.  Having an accounting designation may help the Career Manager make a decision, but in the end, it will be the "exigencies of the service" that will prevail.  Note: whenever someone uses the phrase, "exigencies of the service," it usually means you won't like the answer.  ;D

3)  All Naval Logistics Officers will do at least one tour of approximately one year.  This is your "baby" phase where you are the "Baby Supply Officer," more properly known as the Assistant Supply Officer.  Even that title is a bit of a misnomer as you are not really an assistant, but a trainee.  Your job on board is to learn to be the Supply Officer and in that sense you "assist" the Supply Officer in order to learn his /her job.  At the end of that year, you will sit before a board of senior Naval Logistics Officers and try to convince them that you know what you're doing.  If they believe you, you get your "AILK" (sometimes also referred to as a "D6," which I'm not going to explain right now).  Once you are AILK qualified, and provided you are promoted to Lt(N), you join the queue of your peers and wait for the opportunity to go back to sea as the Head of the Logistics Department in a frigate.  This would be at least a two year tour, but not everybody gets to do this.  The really lucky ones, may get a third tour as a LCdr in either a destroyer or a supply ship.  The Fleet LogO is also a LCdr and he/she goes to sea occasionally.

NOTE:  In the Navy, "Supply Officer" and "Logistics Officer" are interchangeable.  "Supply Officer" is the older, more traditional term and anybody who actually knows anything about it realizes that they do far more than just Supply.  In fact, the Supply Officer is responsible for all logistics on board, including food services.  In recent years, people refer to them more and more as the "Logistics Officer."  One theory is that the members of the "Supply Department" who were not Supply Techs (ie. the Cooks, Stewards and RMS Clerks) felt slighted...

4)  When we refer to the number of years in a tour at sea, it is from the day you report for duty to the day you leave for your next posting.  Thus a one year tour on board is one calendar year and does not mean one year of bobbing around the ocean.  You will be home for a good part of it and of course there will be port visits! :cheers:

5)  Don't confuse obligatory service with your VE.  The VE is the amount of time you have to serve before you "complete your engagement" and become entitled to certain benefits (eg. severance pay, move, pension, etc).  Your obligatory service is the amount of time you have to serve before they even think of letting you out.  It depends on your type of enrollment, but generally is only around three years.  However, if you get out before your VE is completed, you give up certain benefits.  In short, no, you don't have to stay in nine years, but it may well be worth your while to do so.

6)  Don't worry too much about the swimming.  You will have to pass the basic swim test on Basic Training (and I saw more than one person dog paddle it), but when life expectancy in the water of the North Atlantic is two minutes in January (and three minutes in July), it really doesn't matter how good your breast stroke is.