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Mr. O'Leary
I didn't mean to offend anyone here, and if I did I'm sorry. That was never my intention.
I didn't mean to offend anyone here, and if I did I'm sorry. That was never my intention.
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Granny,
I certainly can't speak for Mr. O'Leary or anyone else here. But, I certainly have not been offended. Your question seems perfectly legitimate and I believe your sentiment is an admirable one. I just believe that a more pragmatic view will hold sway in practical reality, regardless of what our sentiments may be. Cheers.
I certainly can't speak for Mr. O'Leary or anyone else here. But, I certainly have not been offended. Your question seems perfectly legitimate and I believe your sentiment is an admirable one. I just believe that a more pragmatic view will hold sway in practical reality, regardless of what our sentiments may be. Cheers.
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Thank you Wotan.
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The population on army.ca is a very diverse one with broad ranges of personal interests. Generalizations in any such forum is likely to contradict another's persoanl views of their own chosen vocation, hobbies or activities. We have discussed past proposals for restriction of dealings in medals, and have seen views ranging from defence to disinterest. I have yet to see a credible argument for denying collectors their hobby that would result in a similar level of protection and interest being shown in these precious artifacts.
Don't picture it as defence of the trade in medals, but of the opportunity to research their owners, to 'know' these soldiers, rather than to have them lost in an attic or museum basement. The 'trade' is the necessary evil that gives us the chance to do so, the range of pricing on any particular items is simple free market economics - supply and demand. And if that interest and its resulting demand did not exist, we would have far less knowledge compiled and collected about those soldiers who served before us. While it would certainly be possible to research a randomly selected soldier, it becomes far more realistic when the start point is a medal that is named to him and you know he held it in his hands, all the while knowing you may be the first person to show any interest in him in decades.
Don't picture it as defence of the trade in medals, but of the opportunity to research their owners, to 'know' these soldiers, rather than to have them lost in an attic or museum basement. The 'trade' is the necessary evil that gives us the chance to do so, the range of pricing on any particular items is simple free market economics - supply and demand. And if that interest and its resulting demand did not exist, we would have far less knowledge compiled and collected about those soldiers who served before us. While it would certainly be possible to research a randomly selected soldier, it becomes far more realistic when the start point is a medal that is named to him and you know he held it in his hands, all the while knowing you may be the first person to show any interest in him in decades.
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Mr. O'Leary
I agree with the researching of the soldiers from days gone by 110%, I did it for my uncles that were KIA long before I was thought of. And yes I know there is a very big difference in collectors and dealers. You gents that are collectors have my total support in what you do, you take a piece of metal and bring life to it. You find the man behind the name, who he was,what he was, and where he was when he was killed. I will never say that is a bad thing.
I agree with the researching of the soldiers from days gone by 110%, I did it for my uncles that were KIA long before I was thought of. And yes I know there is a very big difference in collectors and dealers. You gents that are collectors have my total support in what you do, you take a piece of metal and bring life to it. You find the man behind the name, who he was,what he was, and where he was when he was killed. I will never say that is a bad thing.
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military granny said:
$2900 a month with a 400k life insurance was my price, See that's the going rate now day's ;D
As for the Issue at hand, people will make money at anything but eventually those of pure intent will guide or get a hold of those even from unscrupulous dealers so that the reverence deserved of the deed's those men did to get the medals will be properly remembered.
Blackadder1916
Army.ca Fixture
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Michael O'Leary said:
In agreement. If the preservation of this heritage was left solely in the hands of the CWM, much would probably be lost to the nation. One episode that comes to mind is the Topham V.C.
http://www.victoriacross.org.uk/bbtopham.htm
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I read this thread with interest as I have never heard from the other side of the coin so to speak. I have a medals and militaria collection that is global in scope.
I agree with most of the statements about how it would all end in the garbage if not for collectors.
If we don't collect and keep them alive, who will pass on the history, a lot of collectors I know spend a fair amount of time going to schools etc and "show and tell". As to looking at it as an investment, I might make some people mad here, however with my being long past the six figures US$'s I have to look at it as an investment, I buy for the history but also keep in mind the monetary side of things.
I try to avoid E-Bay as much as possible, however you can find some sweet deals, especially if the sellers is totally clued out or missnames things
. What really irks me are the dealers who flog a fake as a real item even when they know the difference.
Here is my latest from Evil-Bay:
A Pakistani medal bar to a 1214303 Dvr Haq Nawaz. RPA
I agree with most of the statements about how it would all end in the garbage if not for collectors.
If we don't collect and keep them alive, who will pass on the history, a lot of collectors I know spend a fair amount of time going to schools etc and "show and tell". As to looking at it as an investment, I might make some people mad here, however with my being long past the six figures US$'s I have to look at it as an investment, I buy for the history but also keep in mind the monetary side of things.
I try to avoid E-Bay as much as possible, however you can find some sweet deals, especially if the sellers is totally clued out or missnames things
. What really irks me are the dealers who flog a fake as a real item even when they know the difference.Here is my latest from Evil-Bay:
A Pakistani medal bar to a 1214303 Dvr Haq Nawaz. RPA
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The buying and selling of military medals began long long ago before ebay, even before gun shows and militaria shows too. A far as I am concerned, if a person wants to sell a family member's medals, that his right ( I am not in favour of such BTW - many are not). WE cannot control the sale of private items, can we.
If that family has no interest, at least these medals can be appreciated by someone else.
I think of the few WWII German EKII's I have and one WW1 EKII also. These items were removed from the corpses and wounded German PWs (along with their watches) by my family members. Now, was that in bad taste? does one approve of that? Anyways, I inherited them after my father passed on. I treasure them with the other memoribilia I have from that period. All safely guarded in a locked box back in dear ole Australia.
I also have a Mother's Cross I got from my Aunt. It was from her Grandmother, who lost a son in Passchendaele in November, 1917. Search on here for 267104 PTE Robert Allen, as I wrote about his story a couple of yrs backon this site. I'll never sell that. Its still in its box, a little tattered with a faded King's Crown on it, but once the box is opened that cross, bearing my Great Uncle's name and number, with purple ribbon, as as new as the day it was first opened.
Meanwhile I am expanding my collection of Iraqi Army memoribilia too. A few medals, badges, rank insignia, yes and the ever collectable bayonets from a variety of Kalashnikovs too, ha!
Regards,
Wes
If that family has no interest, at least these medals can be appreciated by someone else.
I think of the few WWII German EKII's I have and one WW1 EKII also. These items were removed from the corpses and wounded German PWs (along with their watches) by my family members. Now, was that in bad taste? does one approve of that? Anyways, I inherited them after my father passed on. I treasure them with the other memoribilia I have from that period. All safely guarded in a locked box back in dear ole Australia.
I also have a Mother's Cross I got from my Aunt. It was from her Grandmother, who lost a son in Passchendaele in November, 1917. Search on here for 267104 PTE Robert Allen, as I wrote about his story a couple of yrs backon this site. I'll never sell that. Its still in its box, a little tattered with a faded King's Crown on it, but once the box is opened that cross, bearing my Great Uncle's name and number, with purple ribbon, as as new as the day it was first opened.
Meanwhile I am expanding my collection of Iraqi Army memoribilia too. A few medals, badges, rank insignia, yes and the ever collectable bayonets from a variety of Kalashnikovs too, ha!
Regards,
Wes
the 48th regulator
Army.ca Fixture
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I use eBay, quite extensively where I have found some great gems in my 48th Memorabilia collection.
I too at time also sell these items, to help generate funds for my passion. In fact I acquired a Medal, dog tag, and research papers acquired from the Canadian archives (photocopies) of a member of The 15th Battalion (48th Highrs). I am actually contemplating selling it there as I have my eye on something else that will complete a smaller collection I have.
I know someone could use these items to complete their collection. In essence it is a type of bartering system, in my opinion, between collectors. Am I callous for doing it? I think Micheal O nailed my exact feelings.
dileas
tess
I too at time also sell these items, to help generate funds for my passion. In fact I acquired a Medal, dog tag, and research papers acquired from the Canadian archives (photocopies) of a member of The 15th Battalion (48th Highrs). I am actually contemplating selling it there as I have my eye on something else that will complete a smaller collection I have.
I know someone could use these items to complete their collection. In essence it is a type of bartering system, in my opinion, between collectors. Am I callous for doing it? I think Micheal O nailed my exact feelings.
dileas
tess
Hardrations
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It's with interest I've been reading this article and all the replies. I totally agree that it is a shame for medals to be sold on when family forget just what and how they were earned. In my case I had my former father-in-laws medals mounted after getting DND to pass on his SSM and CD clasp (they were very helpful) . I went to a local framing shop who mounted the medals with appropriate photo's and on the back of the picture frame, the framer mounted an envelope into which appropriate records, letters etc could be put. In there is a note telling the family if they lose interest, it would be best to pass the medals onto his Regimental Museum, ( not the Canadian War Museum we're not all Billy Bishops) even though they may not display it they could use it in a traveling display on Remembrance times etc. This suggestion came from the former Mjr. John McKenzie RC Sigs (deceased) who was a leader in reorganizing the ( RC Sigs Museum ) Communications and Electronics Museum in Kingston. This is how I plan to handle my medals when I pass on.
Might I also mention that I have come into possession of two sets of WW1 medals that were hidden in a house in River Heights here in Winnipeg. A fellow I worked with knew my military past and asked me to trace them for him. It's been very interesting tracing family on these. Which I'm still in the process of doing. I've had assistance from the UK in this matter and have had a lot of fun connecting the dots on these medals (ends up the owners were brother-in-laws) now to just find family. In one case all the family in the UK have died out, this included one brother who died in the Somme in 1917. The other I don't think ever married.
Another point of interest, is that I've noticed that often some one in the UK will advertise in the Last Post in the Legion Magazine on finding a set of WW 1 Cdn medals. Often these were of a British born soldier who enlisted in Canada but stayed in the UK after the war.
Might I also mention that I have come into possession of two sets of WW1 medals that were hidden in a house in River Heights here in Winnipeg. A fellow I worked with knew my military past and asked me to trace them for him. It's been very interesting tracing family on these. Which I'm still in the process of doing. I've had assistance from the UK in this matter and have had a lot of fun connecting the dots on these medals (ends up the owners were brother-in-laws) now to just find family. In one case all the family in the UK have died out, this included one brother who died in the Somme in 1917. The other I don't think ever married.
Another point of interest, is that I've noticed that often some one in the UK will advertise in the Last Post in the Legion Magazine on finding a set of WW 1 Cdn medals. Often these were of a British born soldier who enlisted in Canada but stayed in the UK after the war.
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Since this topic came up, I figured I would check out www.parl.gc.ca to see what's new with The Honourable Audrey McLaughlins Bill (C-231) regarding the issuance of a Special Service Medal For Domestic Emergency Relief Operations (SSM-DERO). But, as I was checking that out, I came across Bill C-210 by the Honourable Peter Stoffer. It is a proposed bill to prohibit the sale of CF and Canadian police medals. Both bills have only passed first reading, however, it would appear that there is at least some political will to cease the trading in Canadian medals, at least within Canada.
So, if this bill were to pass, it would be illegal for a Regiment to bid on the sale of a VC, MM or CD of one of it's soldiers, but some Heritage Front enthusiasts would be legally able to bid on the Party Badge, EKI or Deutsche Kreuz of a war criminal. Odd, but there you have it.
So, if this bill were to pass, it would be illegal for a Regiment to bid on the sale of a VC, MM or CD of one of it's soldiers, but some Heritage Front enthusiasts would be legally able to bid on the Party Badge, EKI or Deutsche Kreuz of a war criminal. Odd, but there you have it.
Hardrations
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So, if this bill were to pass, it would be illegal for a Regiment to bid on the sale of a VC, MM or CD of one of it's soldiers, but some Heritage Front enthusiasts would be legally able to bid on the Party Badge, EKI or Deutsche Kreuz of a war criminal. Odd, but there you have it.
[/quote]
So there you have it. If our laws were to make any sense at the best of times, it would be very scary.
[/quote]
So there you have it. If our laws were to make any sense at the best of times, it would be very scary.
the 48th regulator
Army.ca Fixture
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Great article on the news today
Shared in accordance with the "fair dealing" provisions, Section 29, of the Copyright Act.
War medal given to black Nova Scotia soldier sells for C$7,435 on eBay
STEVE MACLEOD
Fri Feb 23, 9:48 PM ET
HALIFAX (CP) - A medal awarded to a Nova Scotia soldier from Canada's only black battalion in the First World War has found its rightful home.
A Victory Medal given to Percy Fenton of Arcadia, N.S., about 90 years ago was bought on eBay late Friday for C$7,435.40 by a Canadian bidding on behalf of the Black Cultural Centre in Dartmouth, N.S. "It's a God-send," said Henry Bishop, the centre's curator.
"We're still reeling from the cost it went to. That's why these things should never have been up for auction."
Dave Thomson of St. George, Ont., placed the winning bid with nine seconds to spare.
Thomson, who has helped purchase and return more than 30 medals listed on eBay, said the seller has agreed to give the cultural centre the time to gather enough donations to pay for the decoration.
"It won't be a problem," said Thomson, who placed the winning bid under the eBay name, "hotrodsandhockey."
"They've already got plenty of donations offered to them, plenty of pledges."
Bishop didn't know exactly much money has been pledged but was also confident that people will make good on their promises.
"It's a miracle that we were able to get it in this way, even though it cost at that level," he said. "It's worth it to have it back where it belongs.
"There's a lot of good people out there. I received a lot of great calls from people I've never met in my life but who came to the aid of the party."
Victory Medals were given to every Allied soldier who served in the war. Canadians received 350,000 of the nearly six million that were handed out.
Bids for other Victory Medals on eBay are as low as $10, but the media coverage and the significance of the battalion drove up the price.
Fenton was a member of the No. 2 Construction Battalion, Canada's first black battalion.
The Nova Scotia-based battalion provided logging, forestry and general construction services overseas. All of the more than 600 regular soldiers were black, while all but one of its commanding officers were white.
Fenton's enlistment papers indicate that he was 17 years old when he enlisted in the battalion in 1916.
After serving as a sapper, a type of military engineer, Fenton returned home after the war and was discharged. He later died after falling ill.
Fenton's relatives have objected to the sale, saying the medal belongs in a museum.
"I don't think it's right," Leslie Fenton, one of Percy Fenton's nephews who is now in his 70s, said from Yarmouth this week.
"I didn't even know that you could sell medals. I didn't even know you were entitled to sell them."
New Democrat MP Peter Stoffer introduced a private member's bill last year that would forbid the sale of medals.
He raised the issue in the House of Commons again Friday, urging the anonymous seller from Nova Scotia to cancel the auction and give the medal to the Black Cultural Centre.
"It is despicable that in this great country somebody would try to financially profit from the valour of other people," said Stoffer.
Bishop expressed thanks for the efforts of Thomson, who he called "a genius in eBay work."
"Our history should not be up for grabs," he said. "Every culture has a right to protect what they think is valuable."
tess
Shared in accordance with the "fair dealing" provisions, Section 29, of the Copyright Act.
War medal given to black Nova Scotia soldier sells for C$7,435 on eBay
STEVE MACLEOD
Fri Feb 23, 9:48 PM ET
HALIFAX (CP) - A medal awarded to a Nova Scotia soldier from Canada's only black battalion in the First World War has found its rightful home.
A Victory Medal given to Percy Fenton of Arcadia, N.S., about 90 years ago was bought on eBay late Friday for C$7,435.40 by a Canadian bidding on behalf of the Black Cultural Centre in Dartmouth, N.S. "It's a God-send," said Henry Bishop, the centre's curator.
"We're still reeling from the cost it went to. That's why these things should never have been up for auction."
Dave Thomson of St. George, Ont., placed the winning bid with nine seconds to spare.
Thomson, who has helped purchase and return more than 30 medals listed on eBay, said the seller has agreed to give the cultural centre the time to gather enough donations to pay for the decoration.
"It won't be a problem," said Thomson, who placed the winning bid under the eBay name, "hotrodsandhockey."
"They've already got plenty of donations offered to them, plenty of pledges."
Bishop didn't know exactly much money has been pledged but was also confident that people will make good on their promises.
"It's a miracle that we were able to get it in this way, even though it cost at that level," he said. "It's worth it to have it back where it belongs.
"There's a lot of good people out there. I received a lot of great calls from people I've never met in my life but who came to the aid of the party."
Victory Medals were given to every Allied soldier who served in the war. Canadians received 350,000 of the nearly six million that were handed out.
Bids for other Victory Medals on eBay are as low as $10, but the media coverage and the significance of the battalion drove up the price.
Fenton was a member of the No. 2 Construction Battalion, Canada's first black battalion.
The Nova Scotia-based battalion provided logging, forestry and general construction services overseas. All of the more than 600 regular soldiers were black, while all but one of its commanding officers were white.
Fenton's enlistment papers indicate that he was 17 years old when he enlisted in the battalion in 1916.
After serving as a sapper, a type of military engineer, Fenton returned home after the war and was discharged. He later died after falling ill.
Fenton's relatives have objected to the sale, saying the medal belongs in a museum.
"I don't think it's right," Leslie Fenton, one of Percy Fenton's nephews who is now in his 70s, said from Yarmouth this week.
"I didn't even know that you could sell medals. I didn't even know you were entitled to sell them."
New Democrat MP Peter Stoffer introduced a private member's bill last year that would forbid the sale of medals.
He raised the issue in the House of Commons again Friday, urging the anonymous seller from Nova Scotia to cancel the auction and give the medal to the Black Cultural Centre.
"It is despicable that in this great country somebody would try to financially profit from the valour of other people," said Stoffer.
Bishop expressed thanks for the efforts of Thomson, who he called "a genius in eBay work."
"Our history should not be up for grabs," he said. "Every culture has a right to protect what they think is valuable."
Copyright © 2007 Canadian Press
Copyright 2007 © Yahoo! Inc. All rights reserved.
dileasCopyright 2007 © Yahoo! Inc. All rights reserved.
tess
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http://www.ctv.ca/servlet/ArticleNews/story/CTVNews/20070223/medal_blacksoldier_070224/20070224?hub=TopStories
First World War medal nets $7400 on EBay
Updated Sat. Feb. 24 2007 9:29 AM ET
CTV.ca News Staff
A medal awarded to a soldier from Canada's first and only black battalion in the First World War has found its rightful home after being bought for $7,400 on EBay Friday night.
With nine seconds to spare before bidding was closed, an Ontario man bidding on behalf of the Black Cultural Centre in Dartmouth, N.S. bought the Victory Medal awarded to soldier Percy Fenton.
Fenton was a member of the No. 2 Construction Battalion.
The cultural centre was working with Dave Thomson of St. George, Ont., who has helped buy and return more than 30 medals listed on EBay -- including an Order of Canada medal that was put up for auction last month.
Henry Bishop, the cultural centre's curator, called it a God send. He said he has been touched by offers from across the province, including from a call centre in Yarmouth that has said it raised more than $2,000.
"We believe in the power of human nature. It's a coming together of community,'' he said on Friday.
The Victory Medals were given to every Allied soldier who served in the war. Canadians received 350,000 of the nearly six million that were handed out.
Other Victory Medals on EBay have been won for as low as $10. But Bishop said media coverage and the significance of the battalion drove up the price.
Fenton's Nova Scotia-based battalion did logging, forestry and general construction work overseas. While all of 600-plus regular soldiers were black, all but one of its commanding officers were white.
Fenton's enlistment papers indicate that he was 17 years old when he enlisted in the battalion in 1916.
After serving as a sapper, a type of military engineer, Fenton returned home after the war and was discharged. He later died after falling ill.
Fenton's relatives have objected to the sale, saying the medal belongs in a museum.
"I don't think it's right," Leslie Fenton, one of Percy Fenton's nephews who is now in his 70s, told CP from Yarmouth this week.
"I didn't even know that you could sell medals. I didn't even know you were entitled to sell them."
The case has also renewed calls from New Democrat MP Peter Stoffer, who introduced a private member's bill last year that would forbid the sale of medals.
He raised the issue in the House of Commons on Friday, urging the anonymous seller, who he called a "profiteer," to cancel the auction and give the medal to the Black Cultural Centre.
"It is despicable that in this great country, somebody would try to financially profit from the valour of other people," said Stoffer.
With files from The Canadian Press
First World War medal nets $7400 on EBay
Updated Sat. Feb. 24 2007 9:29 AM ET
CTV.ca News Staff
A medal awarded to a soldier from Canada's first and only black battalion in the First World War has found its rightful home after being bought for $7,400 on EBay Friday night.
With nine seconds to spare before bidding was closed, an Ontario man bidding on behalf of the Black Cultural Centre in Dartmouth, N.S. bought the Victory Medal awarded to soldier Percy Fenton.
Fenton was a member of the No. 2 Construction Battalion.
The cultural centre was working with Dave Thomson of St. George, Ont., who has helped buy and return more than 30 medals listed on EBay -- including an Order of Canada medal that was put up for auction last month.
Henry Bishop, the cultural centre's curator, called it a God send. He said he has been touched by offers from across the province, including from a call centre in Yarmouth that has said it raised more than $2,000.
"We believe in the power of human nature. It's a coming together of community,'' he said on Friday.
The Victory Medals were given to every Allied soldier who served in the war. Canadians received 350,000 of the nearly six million that were handed out.
Other Victory Medals on EBay have been won for as low as $10. But Bishop said media coverage and the significance of the battalion drove up the price.
Fenton's Nova Scotia-based battalion did logging, forestry and general construction work overseas. While all of 600-plus regular soldiers were black, all but one of its commanding officers were white.
Fenton's enlistment papers indicate that he was 17 years old when he enlisted in the battalion in 1916.
After serving as a sapper, a type of military engineer, Fenton returned home after the war and was discharged. He later died after falling ill.
Fenton's relatives have objected to the sale, saying the medal belongs in a museum.
"I don't think it's right," Leslie Fenton, one of Percy Fenton's nephews who is now in his 70s, told CP from Yarmouth this week.
"I didn't even know that you could sell medals. I didn't even know you were entitled to sell them."
The case has also renewed calls from New Democrat MP Peter Stoffer, who introduced a private member's bill last year that would forbid the sale of medals.
He raised the issue in the House of Commons on Friday, urging the anonymous seller, who he called a "profiteer," to cancel the auction and give the medal to the Black Cultural Centre.
"It is despicable that in this great country, somebody would try to financially profit from the valour of other people," said Stoffer.
With files from The Canadian Press
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How, exactly, is the seller a profiteer? He doesn't make people bid. He doesn't pit special interest groups and vigilantes like Thomson against one another. I suspect the seller was as shocked as anyone to see this medal sell for about 100 times it's estimated market value.
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the 48th regulator said:
The "culture" had found a way to protect what it thinks is valuable, and that is the collectors. Except for those who collect, research and protect such items, many of these medals, once considered unwanted by the families, would have ended up being discarded. Don't denigrate the collectors who have preserved these objects until now, just because people like Thomson and Stouffer have come along with a different interpretation that has begun to skew the results and opinions of such auctions.
the 48th regulator
Army.ca Fixture
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Michael O'Leary said:
Here Here Michael,
Once again I will say this our "culture" of collectors, often use funds in sale of items to expand our collection. Our collection is an admiration of our culture as Canadians.
dileas
tess
p.s, it looks like I said that quote....
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Thank you both. You put my thoughts into words better than I can.. 
