Victoria is facing a public-safety crisis

[medicineman]

Have rewritten this a few times - I've had a few negative experiences with police and the MHA, but only in one place I worked, where it seemed to be a systemic thing. I suspect it was due to not wanting to tie people up in the ED babysitting without a piece of paper saying they needed to be there...though it was always stated as "we don't want to violate someone's civil rights without due cause". I had 2 separate incidents in one day with them where on both counts the constables concerned failed to act under Section 12 - one was a slam dunk - I had a Form 2 issued the next day on them and their psychiatrist, who I'd colluded with over the phone, actually had them Form 4'd later that day prior to the F2 warrant being executed - but the other was a more subtle case that the investigating officers contacted me about as they were driving back to their home town and asked that I visit. Was not amused, as this person had been hallucinating gangbangers doing an advance to contact/section attack on their home, and they still had firearms in the house their kids hadn't yet removed...thankfully I didn't get shot or shot at when I arrived, alone . I had a rather terse discussion that evening with the Cpl i/c after I physically drove that second person to hospital to have them admitted. I had to go to court the next morning to swear out the Form 2 on the first person...uncompensated and on my day off. Incidentally, this wasn't my first negative interaction with this detachment of RCMP regarding The Mental Health Act. Other places I've worked, no issues with the RCMP or Winnipeg Police Service in this regards - in fact had a great outcome with WPS just 2 days ago in this same vein.

$0.02 FWIW, all anecdotal of course.

 

[Booter]

You understand that the requirements for the form 2 aren’t the same threshold as an emergency apprehension then? Just because you have grounds for one doesn’t mean the other is assumed.

Like you’re saying that’ll because you got it the next day that the emergency apprehension should have happened- but they aren’t built that way. I may be misreading it.

But in a general sense- for an emergency one to work you have to believe if the police leave that person someone will be hurt right away- but the court issued one doesn’t have that urgency required.

It is very common for the emergency grounds to not be met and have it be possible to get the form issued another way.

Maybe I am misreading this- if so I apologize

 

[Booter]

A problem with tolerating low-level risks is that sometimes the threshold for severe correction is realized only after the risk has manifested.

System doesn’t agree with you even if most emergency and health workers may agree with you.

 

[Booter]

Here is the police power in Manitoba-

Peace officer's power to take into custody

12(1)

A peace officer may take a person into custody and then promptly to a place to be examined involuntarily by a physician if

(a) the peace officer believes on reasonable grounds that the person

(i) has threatened or attempted to cause bodily harm to himself or herself,

(ii) has behaved violently towards another person or caused another person to fear bodily harm from him or her, or

(iii) has shown a lack of competence to care for himself or herself;

(b) the peace officer is of the opinion that the person is apparently suffering from a mental disorder of a nature that will likely result in serious harm to the person or to another person, or in the person's substantial mental or physical deterioration; and

(c) the urgency of the situation does not allow for an order for an examination under section 11.

Section 11 is the involuntary application to a justice. It is the way these situations are supposed to be resolved- unless there is a present real danger at that moment.

Order for an involuntary medical examination

11(1)

After considering an application made under section 10 and the evidence of any witnesses, the justice may issue an order that the person named in it be examined involuntarily by a physician, if the justice believes on reasonable grounds that the person

(a) is apparently suffering from a mental disorder;

(b) because of the mental disorder, is likely to cause serious harm to himself or herself or to another person, or to suffer substantial mental or physical deterioration;

(c) needs a medical examination to determine whether he or she should undergo a psychiatric assessment; and

(d) refuses to be medically examined.

Order to take into custody

11(2)

An order under this section

(a) may be directed to an individual peace officer or to all peace officers of the area in which the justice has jurisdiction; and

(b) is authority for a peace officer to take the person named in the order into custody as soon as possible, and then promptly to a place where the person may be detained and examined involuntarily by a physician.

Further to this- the application is supposed to be a person with personal knowledge such as a friend or family member- it’s not the police that apply.

Your experience is very odd to me Medicine- I’ve never sent anyone to a house on my behalf. I’ve taken doctors to do house visits when we ran out of options,

Calling someone and sending them there as I travel home is bloody weird. If my people did that to you I’d snap my crayons. Like crayons everywhere. It’s not acceptable

 

[medicineman]

I didn't go in to the office shooting from the hip - I re-read the act and in the Form 2 case, 12(1)(a)(iii) and (b) were applicable to even a casual observer, as were the accommodations they were renting...the main reason police were called was behaviour and the state of their motel room.

Your experience is very odd to me Medicine- I’ve never sent anyone to a house on my behalf. I’ve taken doctors to do house visits when we ran out of options,

Calling someone and sending them there as I travel home is bloody weird. If my people did that to you I’d snap my crayons. Like crayons everywhere. It’s not acceptable

You don't need to tell me twice...I honestly wish this wasn't BS or exaggeration, it was a weird day, even by standards, and even with the black cloud that seems to follow and mock me for some reason. And like I said - only that detachment. Not sure if things have changed since I left there, I do know that in the other place I've worked prior to Winnipeg, never this sort of problem and were always helpful and sometimes life/limb saving.

I'd only hope that you don't snap your copper crayons rather than re-educate them - sometimes it's a learned behaviour from previous leadership that needs unlearning, though bone idleness or even burnout are possibilities...such as I've had to do with subordinates (and had done to me) in my previous life.

Regards and thanks for your side.

 

[mariomike]

Usually, the call originator would be waiting on scene, maybe with the patient, maybe not, to hand you the Form 1.

The patient hopped on the stretcher. Or, better yet, walked. If they hesitated, haul out the Strait jacket under the stretcher mattress, and inform them you would have to call for a police officer to come along for the ride.

They usually hopped on when they saw, and heard, that. Most were familiar with the drill.

That was Ontario. Not sure about Nova Scotia or Manitoba.

 

[GK .Dundas]

Have rewritten this a few times - I've had a few negative experiences with police and the MHA, but only in one place I worked, where it seemed to be a systemic thing. I suspect it was due to not wanting to tie people up in the ED babysitting without a piece of paper saying they needed to be there...though it was always stated as "we don't want to violate someone's civil rights without due cause". I had 2 separate incidents in one day with them where on both counts the constables concerned failed to act under Section 12 - one was a slam dunk - I had a Form 2 issued the next day on them and their psychiatrist, who I'd colluded with over the phone, actually had them Form 4'd later that day prior to the F2 warrant being executed - but the other was a more subtle case that the investigating officers contacted me about as they were driving back to their home town and asked that I visit. Was not amused, as this person had been hallucinating gangbangers doing an advance to contact/section attack on their home, and they still had firearms in the house their kids hadn't yet removed...thankfully I didn't get shot or shot at when I arrived, alone . I had a rather terse discussion that evening with the Cpl i/c after I physically drove that second person to hospital to have them admitted. I had to go to court the next morning to swear out the Form 2 on the first person...uncompensated and on my day off. Incidentally, this wasn't my first negative interaction with this detachment of RCMP regarding The Mental Health Act. Other places I've worked, no issues with the RCMP or Winnipeg Police Service in this regards - in fact had a great outcome with WPS just 2 days ago in this same vein.

$0.02 FWIW, all anecdotal of course.

I am starting to wonder if we've run into each other I am literally the first person you run into at HSC Pysch .
Three days a week anyway. I' m the moustached blimp in the Garda uniform.

 

[medicineman]

I am starting to wonder if we've run into each other I am literally the first person you run into at HSC Pysch .
Three days a week anyway. I' m the moustached blimp in the Garda uniform

Fraid not - work at Grace in the ED. I did do my psych rotation at HSC in Aug 2007 though...when the interview rooms were right in the Adult ED waiting room...where everyone got front row seats to the meltdowns upon involuntary admission.

 

[GK .Dundas]

I worked in the Grace did a fair bit of time sitting outside the seclusion rooms in Emergency.

 

[lenaitch]

the person wasn’t even in custody for two hours but that’s the health care system.

Yup. When we used to escort subjects from the remotes in N/W Ontario to the psych facilities in the city, if we lingered (well, because we were in the big city for a night), the subject often beat us back to town via a subsidized flight or bus ticket.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Oh good, yet another study

Esquimalt hires consultants to investigate alternatives to VicPD​

Esquimalt has complained for years that it is getting a raw deal under the shared policing agreement with Victoria, which expires at the end of next year.

Esquimalt hires consultants to investigate alternatives to VicPD

Esquimalt has complained for years that it is getting a raw deal under the shared policing agreement with Victoria, which expires at the end of next year.

www.timescolonist.com

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Oh good, yet another study

Esquimalt hires consultants to investigate alternatives to VicPD​

Esquimalt has complained for years that it is getting a raw deal under the shared policing agreement with Victoria, which expires at the end of next year.

Esquimalt hires consultants to investigate alternatives to VicPD

Esquimalt has complained for years that it is getting a raw deal under the shared policing agreement with Victoria, which expires at the end of next year.

www.timescolonist.com

Maybe they can bring in the RCMP…

 

[daftandbarmy]

Maybe they can bring in the RCMP…

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Not bad, eh?

 

[CBH99]

There aren't many assholes; there are many citizens. If citizens start taking matters into their own hands, proper enforcement becomes practically impossible. So it is necessary to step very hard on outbreaks of citizens taking matters into their own hands.

I agree with that post as it pertains to vigilantism. I don’t agree with it in terms of self defense.


For example - If I’m some creep & I try to jump a girl who is out for a jog, and she ends up kicking my ass…good. Got what I deserved.

There’s no way she should get charged for protecting herself. She shouldn’t even have to worry about that.

Now if I take matters into my own hands & decide to go seek him out so I can cripple him or kill him, either to prevent anyone else from being attacked OR to get some sort of revenge/vengeance…that’s where I agree with your post.

 

[mariomike]

Yup. When we used to escort subjects from the remotes in N/W Ontario to the psych facilities in the city, if we lingered (well, because we were in the big city for a night), the subject often beat us back to town via a subsidized flight or bus ticket.

That sounds like a great road trip!

We'd probably run his/her a$$ all the way down. Take our time heading north, and spending the expense $ on the way.

Shame we were already in the asphalt jungle. Our trips were pretty short.

Dead-heading back home empty, would you be subject to emergency calls? It's not easy being being in an area you are not familiar with, and getting a call. Also, as you would know, there was a time when we only had maps. No GPS.

We saw some out-of-town crews in the city getting pretty flustered when they were handed a 9-1-1 call. No fault of theirs, as they were unfamiliar with the city. As much as we were outside of it.

 

[lenaitch]

Dead-heading back home empty, would you be subject to emergency calls? It's not easy being being in an area you are not familiar with, and getting a call. Also, as you would know, there was a time when we only had maps. No GPS.

We saw some out-of-town crews in the city getting pretty flustered when they were handed a 9-1-1 call. No fault of theirs, as they were unfamiliar with the city. As much as we were outside of it.

Under the old decentralized radio system, we would clear enroute to X city but only they would know that, not the destination dispatchers. If we were flying it would be moot. We were either in our a/c or a charter and local members meeting us at the airport. Of course, if you driving and overheard or came across something you would be expected to offer your services. I don't have a clue how they do it now.

I live near an Ontario forensic health facility and it's not uncommon to see police and occasionally EMS from all over the place. Road trip!

 

[NavyShooter]

Contract with DND to hire the Military Police...?

As for dangerous neighbour...mine decided to assault a UPS truck with a log during the summer. Cops came to the door looking for the driver of the "Blue Honda CRV"...and because I had a silver one in the driveway, they stopped here first. I pointed them next door.

Correct response to a police officer in the case you have to protect yourself should be something along the lines of:

"Officer, I feared for my life. I need to speak to my lawyer. I'll only give a statement after speaking with my lawyer."

Or words similar to that...BriHard can probably shoot down that suggestion, but that's what a lawyer told me to say if the worst case ever happened and I had to protect myself.

NS

 

[brihard]

Contract with DND to hire the Military Police...?

As for dangerous neighbour...mine decided to assault a UPS truck with a log during the summer. Cops came to the door looking for the driver of the "Blue Honda CRV"...and because I had a silver one in the driveway, they stopped here first. I pointed them next door.

Correct response to a police officer in the case you have to protect yourself should be something along the lines of:

"Officer, I feared for my life. I need to speak to my lawyer. I'll only give a statement after speaking with my lawyer."

Or words similar to that...BriHard can probably shoot down that suggestion, but that's what a lawyer told me to say if the worst case ever happened and I had to protect myself.

NS

No, I’m not gonna shoot that down. Lawyering up in such a situation is very wise. Depending on force used you may expect to potentially end up in custody if, in the absence of your statement, they believe an offence may have been committed. The situation’s gonna suck no matter what. Might as well protect yourself.

If I have to use serious force on the job and someone is seriously injured or killed as a result, I’m talking to a lawyer before I provide any statement. Goose/Gander.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Massad Ayoob councils that if you draw your CCW pistol, you should call 911 asap. Crooks have a tendency to call 911 and say "Crazy man pointed a gun at me". So the first person to call 911 generally gets better treatment from the police, even in a CCW friendly State.