Updated Army Service Dress project

[MJP]

Huzzah! A welcome change. Our current uniform is a poor cut, an uninspiring look, and a terrible colour. When you wear the uniform next to some allied countries, you realize how bad the "1978 NDHQ extra in Saturday Night Fever" look is.

I hope the end state results in better comfort and utility so that wearing Number 1 or 3 dress isn't such a chore. Pants and shirts that don't feel like cardboard is a good start. I also hope we look outside of the box as a few things I've seen our allies and partners do would be nice additions. A simple polo shirt with a rank slip on and name tag would be nice for garrison dress. I also would prefer we move officer ranks back to the sleeve as it is far easier to see than trying to look at shoulders.

Anyways, we've seen moves away from wearing service dress because it was so out of date. Making it easy to wear, and better looking than pajamas and boots (combats) which is where our dress of the day has evolved is a good thing. This should allow combat dress design to focus on operational features and not on making sure its good for riding the metro.

I knew you would come in eventually. I agree that change is likely needed. It is a poor cut and said as much above.

What I have detested throughout this thread is the allegations that current changes to the dress regs and soldier dress is somehow equated to ability to do one's role. Couple that with the assumption that the dress should harken back to our lost heritage of 1967 makes this sound like a old vs new thread.

I for one love it!!!

 

[OldSolduer]

I live near an RCAF base. That being said I see people in Cadpat a lot- and it’s not a good sight. Scraggly beards, unkempt looking hair, and in a few cases if a button pops someone is losing an eye. The image is that of a military that could care less and is more concerned with “feelings” than being operationally effective. That is what I perceive. I could be wrong.

 

[MJP]

I live near an RCAF base. That being said I see people in Cadpat a lot- and it’s not a good sight. Scraggly beards, unkempt looking hair, and in a few cases if a button pops someone is losing an eye. The image is that of a military that could care less and is more concerned with “feelings” than being operationally effective. That is what I perceive. I could be wrong.

So no clue how effective they are at their roles nor is even relevant to CA formal DEU considering you are looking at RCAF personnel.

What is the relevance to changing CA dress? I must be missing something here

 

[MJP]

Building self discipline has a variety of components - dress, deportment and pride in ones appearance and unit is just a very few of them.

And with that I'm on to other things.

People with long hair, beards or earrings can't possibly form pride in their belonging to a group? Is that a problem with their expression or the group? What am I missing? Only people that fit within your thought processes make the cut to be considered? Failing to see the logic here.

 

[childs56]

People with long hair, beards or earrings can't possibly form pride in their belonging to a group? Is that a problem with their expression or the group? What am I missing? Only people that fit within your thought processes make the cut to be considered? Failing to see the logic here.

One of my observations through my time working various industries and levels of being a worker and supervisor is that appearance and group performance often went hand in hand. Many of the scraggly beard pink hair, multiple piercing crowd were more individual thinkers and often did not work well long term in a group setting especially when things get tough and the work gets hard. That did not mean they were a bad worker, it did mean many of them were more inclined for individual roles and did well at that level.

If having dyed or longer hair, multiple piercings or wearing a skirt makes you want to have a job and identify more as a Soldier, Sailor or Airperson then being neatly groomed then so be it. But don't detract away from we need people who conform to a set standard and have them not readily identifiable when performing their tasks. It was not that many years ago Females were fighting to wear pants and not skirts. Now we have men fighting to wear a skirt not pants.

It will be interesting in a few years when we find out if relaxing dress regulations resulted in more people joining , less people joining or the same number joining. If moral improves among the ranks.

 

[dimsum]

A new Land 'CA' DEU is long overdue, however it would be interesting to know how many CA members actually wear theirs more than a handful of times per year. I'm guess'timating under 10%.

...and even then, how many folks who wear DEUs on a daily basis ever rock their service jacket 'tunic' in cubicle-land?

Rarely. In Ottawa, the folks that wear DEU only wear the short sleeve (or long sleeve with tie) shirt 4x a week. There are organizations who don’t at all, and it’s only Sgt and above who do (MCpl and below wear CADPAT instead).

So jacket only for ceremonies.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Find me that person. An individual who has the pride, professionalism and work ethic to excel at their job is rarely a bag of hammers when it comes to dress and deportment. You're building a strawman that doesn't exist in real life. At risk of further derailing this into another HAIRFORGEN discussion, we now have gone from 1950s dress standards to barely a standard at all in a typical CAF over-correction. The solution was somewhere in the middle and we overshot that by miles.

To get back on topic I think our DEU in CA looks like garbage, hasn't been updated in 50 years and the sizing is terrible. If this initiative fixes those flaws it's well worth the change.

You've never met a Stoker before. Some of the hardest working and most technically competent and dedicated folks, who also seem to take an organizational pride in looking scruffy and unkept. Love my engineers!

 

[SupersonicMax]

Find me that person. An individual who has the pride, professionalism and work ethic to excel at their job is rarely a bag of hammers when it comes to dress and deportment. You're building a strawman that doesn't exist in real life. At risk of further derailing this into another HAIRFORGEN discussion, we now have gone from 1950s dress standards to barely a standard at all in a typical CAF over-correction. The solution was somewhere in the middle and we overshot that by miles.

To get back on topic I think our DEU in CA looks like garbage, hasn't been updated in 50 years and the sizing is terrible. If this initiative fixes those flaws it's well worth the change.

They exist, in fact, there are a lot, including a fair number in my unit, including some from the Army.

For the topic at hand, I don’t understand why we spend so much money and effort to fix aesthetics of something most rarely use. Doesn’t seem appropriate in a context where we are short people and have a lot more urgent files to push…

 

[dimsum]

For the topic at hand, I don’t understand why we spend so much money and effort to fix aesthetics of something most rarely use.

Because it seems "easy". Whether it is actually easy or not is debatable.

But, as others have mentioned here, the actual reason is that the colour of cloth isn't produced anymore, so they would have had to change anyway.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Heres a wild idea.

Get rid of service dress/DEU for those below the rank of Sgt.

 

[dimsum]

Heres a wild idea.

Get rid of service dress/DEU for those below the rank of Sgt.

And finally end the Square Rig revival debate?

 

[Halifax Tar]

And finally end the Square Rig revival debate?

 

[FSTO]

And finally end the Square Rig revival debate?

 

[KevinB]

People with long hair, beards or earrings can't possibly form pride in their belonging to a group? Is that a problem with their expression or the group? What am I missing? Only people that fit within your thought processes make the cut to be considered? Failing to see the logic here.

Perception is reality…
Most of us dinosaurs have different beliefs of what a regular soldier should look like.
For a lot of SOF I’m not sure modified grooming standards are required when not deployed either.

Honestly I liked the old Tans, and thought their removal was a mistake. One just needed to get long sleeve shirts tailored into short sleeve shirts (the short sleeve shirt was like cardboard, and IIRC the same one was used for garrison dress.).

The material of ALL the Army DEU seems to have been picked from a 70’s vintage clothing run, I recall seeing my uncle’s RCAF DEU, and they appeared to be a significantly better material - and didn’t have the nylon, plastic look and feel to them.

Frankly other than the duck hunter camo jacket I think Garrison dress often looked better than DEU’s, but a better take on garrison dress was the old SSF smock, Cbt pants and respective unit T shirts.

I joined during the Transition of old Greens to summer and winter DEU, and it was a fiasco for months - so hopefully whatever is done this time doesn’t end up making a salt and pepper force on parade for several months (if not a year).

 

[OldSolduer]

You've never met a Stoker before. Some of the hardest working and most technically competent and dedicated folks, who also seem to take an organizational pride in looking scruffy and unkept. Love my engineers!

I’ve met stokers. A different breed.

 

[FSTO]

On a hot summer day at a ceremonial function, I actually felt sorry for my brethren who didn’t posses a summer weight uniform.



Some were lucky to find some shade

All kidding aside, I’m hoping that the Army get some comfortable duds!

Speaking of comfortable, I’m going to have to resubmit my dress committee submission for the “flex-waistband” pants.

 

[Kilted]

Heres a wild idea.

Get rid of service dress/DEU for those below the rank of Sgt.

And why don't we go back to a class based military where officers buy commissions. If the military were to tell me that I wasn't good enough for a dress uniform, I'd consider leaving, and I'm sure that I wouldn't be the only one. Image it, we would be allowed to wear medals in civilians, but not in uniform.

 

[KevinB]

And why don't we go back to a class based military where officers buy commissions. If the military were to tell me that I wasn't good enough for a dress uniform, I'd consider leaving, and I'm sure that I wouldn't be the only one. Image it, we would be allowed to wear medals in civilians, but not in uniform.

I suspect most NCM would be thrilled.
But would make things like Remembrance Day and Funerals a little too casual IMHO.

 

[Halifax Tar]

And why don't we go back to a class based military where officers buy commissions. If the military were to tell me that I wasn't good enough for a dress uniform, I'd consider leaving, and I'm sure that I wouldn't be the only one. Image it, we would be allowed to wear medals in civilians, but not in uniform.

I've seen people be presented medals in their combats. Change the Dress Regs.

I suspect most NCM would be thrilled.
But would make things like Remembrance Day and Funerals a little too casual IMHO.

Well if we are really going back in time, we used to fine dine in the same kit we'd fight in.

 

[Halifax Tar]

And why don't we go back to a class based military where ARMY officers buy commissions. If the military were to tell me that I wasn't good enough for a dress uniform, I'd consider leaving, and I'm sure that I wouldn't be the only one. Image it, we would be allowed to wear medals in civilians, but not in uniform.

One last point of clarity.