Updated Army Service Dress project

[OldSolduer]

The CAF doesn’t know what it wants to be. It is starting to lack identity and purpose in my eyes. It’s nice to be inclusive and all but at the end of the day we need a combat capability.
I don’t see it right now.

 

[MJP]

The CAF doesn’t know what it wants to be. It is starting to lack identity and purpose in my eyes. It’s nice to be inclusive and all but at the end of the day we need a combat capability.
I don’t see it right now.

Did JTF 2 lack identity and effectiveness with long hair and beards or did they lose it cause of it?? Or are we just grasping at straws and hoping for yesteryears?

Lots of reasons we suck... None of it is dress related IMHO

 

[dimsum]

Did JTF 2 lack identity and effectiveness with long hair and beards or did they lose it cause of it?? Or are we just grasping at straws and hoping for yesteryears?

Lots of reasons we suck... None of it is dress related IMHO

Similarly, I'm not sure what the Ukrainian military/paramilitary hair standard is but I doubt it's really high on their list of priorities.

 

[rmc_wannabe]

Someone brings up Army Service Dress changes, somehow we circle back to :

-Yaay! Back to the old school! Shouldn't have changed in the first place! Everything in 1962 was perfect
-Bah humbug! Tactical stuff is more important! 4 Mil toward Dress uniforms bad! All money should be spent on MLRS/AD/Tanks/Fighters/Subs! Ukraine doesn't care about Dress uniforms!
-Inclusiveness is wrong! Back in my day....
-The RCN/RCAF has hang ups about dress regs too! No one asked us back in 1968...


I didn't know why I thought this time would be different... but here we are.

 

[MJP]

Similarly, I'm not sure what the Ukrainian military/paramilitary hair standard is but I doubt it's really high on their list of priorities.

In my humble opinion we focus on dress because we have no real focus except some bygone era

I agree that the current green uniform sucks in their current form but not too the point that it needs to be redesigned. More lightweight with better cuts would likely suffice.

But because Canadian Army/CAF folks love dress issues over real operational concerns this will likely get traction.

The fact that folks are comparing effectiveness of the force overall to the dress uniform and appearance they wear has been hilarious in the thread. If long hair mattered then JTF2 would be the worst unit in the CAF

 

[Furniture]

In my humble opinion we focus on dress because we have no real focus except some bygone era

I agree that the current green uniform sucks in their current form but not too the point that it needs to be redesigned. More lightweight with better cuts would likely suffice.

But because Canadian Army/CAF folks love dress issues over real operational concerns this will likely get traction.

The fact that folks are comparing effectiveness of the force overall to the dress uniform and appearance they wear has been hilarious in the thread. If long hair mattered then JTF2 would be the worst unit in the CAF

Different materials, and a new cut is a redesign... The green wool the uniform is made from is discontinued, so a new colour is required. Ergo the army is getting a new cut, colour, and material.

I highly doubt anyone is sitting around avoiding combat capabilities because of dress fetishes. Have you considered that fixing uniforms is something entirely within the CA's power to fix, while other projects move forward at the pace of Ottawa? Concurrent activity, and all of that foolishness.

 

[FJAG]

I think the JTF2 issue is a red herring. There's an operational need for them to blend into ordinary society on occasion. It's not a matter of style affectation. They have a completely different set of individuals who are self motivated and develop their expertise in a completely different way then the average young soldier coming in off the street.

Building self discipline has a variety of components - dress, deportment and pride in ones appearance and unit is just a very few of them.

And with that I'm on to other things.

 

[Halifax Tar]

@FSTO maybe we can get 8 buttons and some proper RN styled NCM rank insignia too!

One can dream.

 

[FSTO]

@FSTO maybe we can get 8 buttons and some proper RN styled NCM rank insignia too!

One can dream.

All you need is a 5th column T-Rex don't give a fack about promotion old guy to get er done!

 

[dangerboy]

We are focusing on operational clothing also. Currently, trials are being done on new base layers that will drastically improve the soldier's comfort and effectiveness in the field. That is the first step in modernizing our field clothing as it is one of the most critical aspects of the layered system.

 

[OldSolduer]

Did JTF 2 lack identity and effectiveness with long hair and beards or did they lose it cause of it?? Or are we just grasping at straws and hoping for yesteryears?

Lots of reasons we suck... None of it is dress related IMHO

I beg to differ. SOF play by different rules.

The Regular Army troop needs a standard to adhere to. And right now I don’t see one.

 

[SupersonicMax]

I beg to differ. SOF play by different rules.

The Regular Army troop needs a standard to adhere to. And right now I don’t see one.

Buying s new uniform will fix that? Standards mean more than dress standard. I put a lot more emphasis on job standards than dress standard in my unit. I will take someone who’s dress looks like a bag of chips but is excellent at their job, over someone who has a perfect uniform but can’t find their way out of a paper bag any day.

 

[OldSolduer]

Buying s new uniform will fix that? Standards mean more than dress standard. I put a lot more emphasis on job standards than dress standard in my unit. I will take someone who’s dress looks like a bag of chips but is excellent at their job, over someone who has a perfect uniform but can’t find their way out of a paper bag any day.

Max while I have a ton of respect for you and what you do the Army needs standards for young soldiers to adhere to. Your world is totally different from where I used to be.

 

[eliminator]

A new Land 'CA' DEU is long overdue, however it would be interesting to know how many CA members actually wear theirs more than a handful of times per year. I'm guess'timating under 10%.

...and even then, how many folks who wear DEUs on a daily basis ever rock their service jacket 'tunic' in cubicle-land?

 

[MJP]

I beg to differ. SOF play by different rules.

The Regular Army troop needs a standard to adhere to. And right now I don’t see one.

What sort of normal soldiering is affected by the current dress standards that can't be addressed by good training, effective training and leadership?

Are folks that fall outside of your perceived ideals therefore shitty soldiers? Did long hair somehow impart a weakness that recent recent enemies can exploit? What exactly is the issue. Please articulate beyond some mystical soldier barrier that seems to be stuck in the olden days.

CBRN or other operational environment that needs adherence can be ordered.... So I may be missing how long hair makes army folks shitty other than hurting some people's feelings.


Behind the fact that it is a dress uniform which isn't even close to being operational

 

[PuckChaser]

Buying s new uniform will fix that? Standards mean more than dress standard. I put a lot more emphasis on job standards than dress standard in my unit. I will take someone who’s dress looks like a bag of chips but is excellent at their job, over someone who has a perfect uniform but can’t find their way out of a paper bag any day.

Find me that person. An individual who has the pride, professionalism and work ethic to excel at their job is rarely a bag of hammers when it comes to dress and deportment. You're building a strawman that doesn't exist in real life. At risk of further derailing this into another HAIRFORGEN discussion, we now have gone from 1950s dress standards to barely a standard at all in a typical CAF over-correction. The solution was somewhere in the middle and we overshot that by miles.

To get back on topic I think our DEU in CA looks like garbage, hasn't been updated in 50 years and the sizing is terrible. If this initiative fixes those flaws it's well worth the change.

 

[Kilted]

Different materials, and a new cut is a redesign... The green wool the uniform is made from is discontinued, so a new colour is required. Ergo the army is getting a new cut, colour, and material.

I highly doubt anyone is sitting around avoiding combat capabilities because of dress fetishes. Have you considered that fixing uniforms is something entirely within the CA's power to fix, while other projects move forward at the pace of Ottawa? Concurrent activity, and all of that foolishness.

And knowing logistic unicorns, we may see the first new uniforms in a few months. If only we could use them for all of our procurement. I wonder how many points a F-35 would cost.

 

[Furniture]

And knowing logistic unicorns, we may see the first new uniforms in a few months. If only we could use them for all of our procurement. I wonder how many points a F-35 would cost.

As much as I enjoy crapping on CAF procurement, the difference in scale between buying uniforms and buying F-35s is like the difference between buying a new Civic, and buying a new superyacht.

 

[MJP]

Find me that person. An individual who has the pride, professionalism and work ethic to excel at their job is rarely a bag of hammers when it comes to dress and deportment.

I saw people every day that were excellent at their jobs that didn't meet a good many standards. Some of those standards were valid others were imposed bygones of yesteryears(see also our old dress regs)

I am not heartbroken about changing the DEU but the argument of some that different dress standards makes an unprofessional force are absurd.

A beard, long or colored hair doesn't make a professional, deeds matter.

Nor do I think we need to roll back the clock to 1967 cause some folks can't accept a change from 40+ years ago. Based on recenty experience I attribute some of these changes to the camp that wants change cause of that. ( I won't be able to read the BN to see if it is the usual suspects for as few days).

There is likely good reason to change the DEU, very few people in this thread have articulated those reasons.

 

[Infanteer]

Huzzah! A welcome change. Our current uniform is a poor cut, an uninspiring look, and a terrible colour. When you wear the uniform next to some allied countries, you realize how bad the "1978 NDHQ extra in Saturday Night Fever" look is.

I hope the end state results in better comfort and utility so that wearing Number 1 or 3 dress isn't such a chore. Pants and shirts that don't feel like cardboard is a good start. I also hope we look outside of the box as a few things I've seen our allies and partners do would be nice additions. A simple polo shirt with a rank slip on and name tag would be nice for garrison dress. I also would prefer we move officer ranks back to the sleeve as it is far easier to see than trying to look at shoulders.

Anyways, we've seen moves away from wearing service dress because it was so out of date. Making it easy to wear, and better looking than pajamas and boots (combats) which is where our dress of the day has evolved is a good thing. This should allow combat dress design to focus on operational features and not on making sure its good for riding the metro.