The Great Gun Control Debate

[Lightguns]

Every 16 year old with a 22 and a range membership has a silencer in The UK.  A book on Infantry Tactics! Danger, Will Robinson,  Danger!  He learned to pepper pod!  There are quite a few full autos in civie hands in Canada and no full auto has been used in crime in Canada since two militia guys tried rob an armoured car in the 60s with a stolen 50 Cal. As a 14 year old on a farm I used dynamite for fun and profit. Dynamite license much easier to get than a PAL.

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[Loachman]

In the case of the SwissArms rifle being reclassified the rifle was not used in the commission of a single recorded crime in Canada.

Not that that is of any relevancy whatsoever.

Punishing inanimate objects achieves nothing, regardless of the evil spirits that Liberals believe lurk therein.

We do not ban or further restrict whatever beverage a drunk driver consumed before whacking head-on into a school bus, or the particular make or model of her car.

 

[mrcpu]

Not that that is of any relevancy whatsoever.

Punishing inanimate objects achieves nothing, regardless of the evil spirits that Liberals believe lurk therein.

We do not ban or further restrict whatever beverage a drunk driver consumed before whacking head-on into a school bus, or the particular make or model of her car.

I agree that we need to punish behaviors and not objects.

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[Fishbone Jones]

Guys,

Just a reminder.

The ignorant of the subject, that try come off as the experts of that subject argue, bitch and deride and are the ones that always whine after their outed and that none of it is their fault. The ones that start bending the subject until it resembles something that backs a useless point of theirs, even though it's not remotely where we started.

They are trolls. Useless oxygen thieves that suck your brains when you engage with them.

Just a public service announcement.

We've had them here before and will likely have them again. I don't think that there's another forum, other than the political ones, that have as many people coming to argue, that don't know what they are talking about, than this one.

If you come across one, ignore them and, perhaps, they'll go away and let the adults talk.

Again, just a reminder.

 

[Lightguns]

Guys,

Just a reminder.

The ignorant of the subject, that try come off as the experts of that subject argue, ***** and deride and are the ones that always whine after their outed and that none of it is their fault. The ones that start bending the subject until it resembles something that backs a useless point of theirs, even though it's not remotely where we started.

They are trolls. Useless oxygen thieves that suck your brains when you engage with them.

Just a public service announcement.

We've had them here before and will likely have them again. I don't think that there's another forum, other than the political ones, that have as many people coming to argue, that don't know what they are talking about, than this one.

If you come across one, ignore them and, perhaps, they'll go away and let the adults talk.

Again, just a reminder.

Sage advice, I was starting to feel that I was on a Canadian Coalition for Gun Control forum.

 

[Lumber]

Guys,

Just a reminder.

The ignorant of the subject, that try come off as the experts of that subject argue, ***** and deride and are the ones that always whine after their outed and that none of it is their fault. The ones that start bending the subject until it resembles something that backs a useless point of theirs, even though it's not remotely where we started.

They are trolls. Useless oxygen thieves that suck your brains when you engage with them.

Was this directed at me, RG? I feel like this might have been directed at me. Getting tired of my Tin-Hat comments, are we friend?  ;D They are only meant in jest, I assure you.

This is, essentially, theft via legislative whim. There is no difference between a common thief breaking into your house and taking your valuable property and a government agent doing it. Either way, the property owner is left with nothing but an immense sense of violation.

Tell me how stealing an honest citizen's property can ever be considered fair and right?

Now who's using a strawman argument? I never said that theft via legislative whim was fair and right. I believe quite the opposite.

But if faced with fines, jail time, and/or lengthy and expensive court battles, I'd rather turn over my property (whether it be guns, motorcycles, alcohol or Kinder eggs) and keep my freedom. I have no desire to make any political statements. I like my job and freedom too much.

 

[Jarnhamar]

[quote author=Lumber]I'd rather turn over my property (whether it be guns, motorcycles, alcohol or Kinder eggs) and keep my freedom. I have no desire to make any political statements. I like my job and freedom too much.
[/quote]


That's some freedom you're enjoying.

 

[mrcpu]

That's some freedom you're enjoying.

I'm not sure it's "the hill I'd pick to die on" either.

 

[Lumber]

That's some freedom you're enjoying.

Served fresh to you by our men and women in uniform  .

I don't care  how zealously you or the other gun owners on here love your firearms, because I bet you love you freedom and your career more than your guns. If the RCMP made another stupid change tonight and made one of your guns illegal, and the RCMP showed up at your door tomorrow with a search warrant because they knew you owned said firearm (don't ask how, this is just hypothetical), what would you do? Tell them no? Grab your guns and defend your property?

Even if they didn't come to your house with a warrant, and had no idea that you owned said gun (which they shouldn't, because it isn't their business), would you keep brining that gun out hunting? Would you keep bringing it to the range? Would you post pictures of it here on Milnet.ca for everyone to see what a law-skirting bad-ass you are? I would guess no, because like me you don't want to go to jail, face jail time, or stuck paying lawyer fees for a lengthy court battle.

 

[Lightguns]

I'm not sure it's "the hill I'd pick to die on" either.

You don't ever have to worry about dying on that kind of hill. 

 

[Lumber]

You don't ever have to worry about dying on that kind of hill.  When you are put on your knees, you can still get on your belly.  When that will not please your political masters, you can dig a trench and get on your knees again and so on.

Right, because being a law abiding member of society means only picking and choosing the laws you follow, and anything else means that you're nothing more than political slave. Democracy is a two-way street.

 

[Lightguns]

Served fresh to you by our men and women in uniform  .

I don't care  how zealously you or the other gun owners on here love your firearms, because I bet you love you freedom and your career more than your guns. If the RCMP made another stupid change tonight and made one of your guns illegal, and the RCMP showed up at your door tomorrow with a search warrant because they knew you owned said firearm (don't ask how, this is just hypothetical), what would you do? Tell them no? Grab your guns and defend your property?

Even if they didn't come to your house with a warrant, and had no idea that you owned said gun (which they shouldn't, because it isn't their business), would you keep brining that gun out hunting? Would you keep bringing it to the range? Would you post pictures of it here on Milnet.ca for everyone to see what a law-skirting bad-*** you are? I would guess no, because like me you don't want to go to jail, face jail time, or stuck paying lawyer fees for a lengthy court battle.

All around me here in rural NB, there are unlicensed gun owners, hunting and shooting and hanging their firearms over their wood stoves without trigger locks.  It would take 10,000 years and suspension of the constitution for the RCMP to round them up.  Hell, when C68 was passed, the 20,000,000 estimated legal firearms in Canada suddenly became only registered 12,000,000 firearms in RCMP padded stats to prove their registry worked.  200,000 handguns registered under the old system disappeared under the new system and the RCMP never followed up.  There is even an open organization of Unlicensed Law-abiding gun owners with 20,000 members. 

 

[mrcpu]

There is even an open organization of Unlicensed Law-abiding gun owners with 20,000 members.

Kind of an oxymoron isn't it? lol

I was in a bar a few months ago chatting with 70 year old gentleman next to me and he was telling me all about his brother's illegal handgun collection.  DOH!

 

[NavyShooter]

RCMP statistics estimated that between 21-24 million guns existed in Canada in 1992.

There were approximately 1 million firearms in the Restricted/Prohibited registry that the RCMP used to maintain (green sheets for those of us that remember them.)

Of those 1 million R/P guns, I think they found almost 200,000 names/addresses that were invalid when they shifted them into the registry.

Of the 20+ million firearms, (and up to 6 million owners) from 1992, less than 7 million guns made it into the registry, and the reason they may have gotten up to over 10 million was due to import/manufacture over 2 decades.

Notably, until 1978, .22 caliber rifles were not considered to be firearms in Canada.  Cooey Firearms built over 2 million guns in Canada, estimated that almost 500,000 of them were .22 caliber bolt action rifles, most of them built with no serial number.

The guns have never been the problem.  The criminal misuse of them is the problem.

The problem now is that regular ownership of firearms is seen as criminal. 

 

[Lumber]

All around me here in rural NB, there are unlicensed gun owners, hunting and shooting and hanging their firearms over their wood stoves without trigger locks.  It would take 10,000 years and suspension of the constitution for the RCMP to round them up.  Hell, when C68 was passed, the 20,000,000 estimated legal firearms in Canada suddenly became only registered 12,000,000 firearms in RCMP padded stats to prove their registry worked.  200,000 handguns registered under the old system disappeared under the new system and the RCMP never followed up.  There is even an open organization of Unlicensed Law-abiding gun owners with 20,000 members.

See, it's because of posts like this that I enjoy debating (and why I don't put people I disagree with on ignore, RG). You presented facts and anecdotes that are very convincing, and have swayed me conceivably.

While I still doubt that, if faced with imminent jail time, gun-owners would refuse to relinquish their guns, I now no longer believe that lawful gun owners will actually find themselves in such a situation, and I also no longer think voluntarily giving them up when laws change is a smart or necessary thing to do.

And I agree with mrcpu; "Unlicenced Law-Abiding" sounds like an Oxymoron.

 

[Lightguns]

Kind of an oxymoron isn't it? lol

I was in a bar a few months ago chatting with 70 year old gentleman next to me and he was telling me all about his brother's illegal handgun collection.  DOH!

Only if you believe a law is just.  For most of my life, my mother's people were not allowed to hunt on their traditional hunting grounds without buying a license from the people that claimed those lands as crown land.  There was no treaty cessation of land rights in Atlantic Canada unlike Central Canada.  They hunted without licenses anyway, they were jailed, their guns taken, they were ridiculed by all the law abiding democratic people but they got out of jail got more guns and continued to hunt.  They fought these "laws" with all means, finally democrats realize that they were in the wrong in their own laws. They did not give up their traditions to knuckle down to "democracy".  Today they hunt on their hunting grounds without fear of jail. Laws only change if they are challenged or so randomly ignored that they become un-enforceable and redundant (as in prohibition).  Freedom is not just what the government gives you, it's in your head and in your heart, that's what I learned from having my brown skin.  That's how I find cause with Canadians who own firearms who appreciate freedom, and none with the law abiding average Canadians who deny freedom under the guise of their laws. 


Edit:  Canadians is better neutral term.

 

[DonaldMcL]

Only if you believe a law is just.  For most of my life, my mother's people were not allowed to hunt on their traditional hunting grounds without buying a license from the people that claimed those lands as crown land.  There was no treaty cessation of land rights in Atlantic Canada unlike Central Canada.  They hunted without licenses anyway, they were jailed, their guns taken, they were ridiculed by all the law abiding democratic people but they got out of jail got more guns and continued to hunt.  They fought these "laws" with all means, finally democrats realize that they were in the wrong in their own laws. They did not give up their traditions to knuckle down to "democracy".  Today they hunt on their hunting grounds without fear of jail. Laws only change if they are challenged or so randomly ignored that they become un-enforceable and redundant (as in prohibition).  Freedom is not just what the government gives you, it's in your head and in your heart, that's what I learned from having my brown skin.  That's how I find cause with Canadians who own firearms who appreciate freedom, and none with the law abiding average Canadians who deny freedom under the guise of their laws. 


Edit:  Canadians is better neutral term.

While a touchy subject, and I'm not trying to stir the pot, but hunting regulations and licensing are to help ensure a sustained healthy population of the animal as well. Hunting with a modern rifle and scope isn't the same as it was 200-300 years ago. This is also the same reason that Bow Season and Muzzleloader seasons are longer and start earlier.

While I believe the native people should have the right to hunt as they see fit, there also needs to be limits. Pretty sure everyone has seen photos of various "hunts" where they're returning with 10 deer in the back of a truck labelled "It was a good day, hopefully tomorrow will be just as good".

 

[Lightguns]

You are off topic, the topic is gun control and the laws around them.  My reply is in the context of my support for gun owners and not open for debate here.  Start a topic on FN hunt rights if you wish, but it is likely to be boring as I agree with much of what you said. 

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[Fishbone Jones]

(and why I don't put people I disagree with on ignore, RG)

Who said you were on ignore?

 

[Jarnhamar]

[quote author=Lumber]

I don't care  how zealously you or the other gun owners on here love your firearms[/quote]

I think we've all picked up on that yes.

because I bet you love you freedom and your career more than your guns. If the RCMP made another stupid change tonight and made one of your guns illegal, and the RCMP showed up at your door tomorrow with a search warrant because they knew you owned said firearm (don't ask how, this is just hypothetical), what would you do?
Tell them no? Grab your guns and defend your property?

We're speaking hypothetically?  I would refuse to cooperate and let them arrest me, sans any sort of violence, and then fight it out to the best of my ability in court.
You are perhaps comfortable with rolling over and doing whatever they tell you and hope they don't take more away because of your career and freedom. I'm not.  I respect the RCMP and the RCMP is something I've strongly considered as a second career. I think they have an incredibly hard job to do and don't get the support or respect they deserve. I also think they make some pretty big mistakes and my admiration of them and their difficult job isn't an excuse to look the other way when they fuck up or not criticize them. I feel the same way about the CF.

would you keep brining that gun out hunting? Would you keep bringing it to the range? Would you post pictures of it here on Milnet.ca for everyone to see what a law-skirting bad-ass you are?

I think you have a pretty ingrained stereotype as to what us firearm owners are all about and I don't think that view will change anytime soon.