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SISIP LTD 2002 - 2018

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To muddy the waters a little more, yes you can have claims under both the old and the new charters. It depends on the date of claim file. Some interesting interpretations of which covers what going on. Next the EI folks will not claw back Temp Loss Earning Benefits if your are on medical EI. BUT VAC will claw back medical EI payments. I arranged a conference call between the head of EI here in Alberta with myself and VAC in Charletown. ( I suspect judging by grammatical nuances used the EI towards the VAC, he was former service). VAC used some very specific word choices when the new benefit plan was formulated. Somewhere around here I have a letter from EI confirming their position on the issue.

Tess,
don't feel bad. My advocate got my file mixed up with someone else's. The apology letter is worth framing or a figure 11.

edit to add:

three of us here in Calgary approached Mr Rob Anders MP.'s ( Chair of the Standing Committee on Veterans Affairs Canada) back in May about the possibilities of a sit down in August.  MPs do not always meet with there constituents when back on home turf. ;)
 
the 48th regulator said:
Apparently, if we are to be given SISIP payments to offset loss of income, in their infinite wisdom, it therefore becomes "taxable Income". A second tier of clawback.

I found that annoying as well...
 
Well,

Yesterday, I spoke with my case worker from SISIP/Manulife and I was told that I must submit copies of all my pay stubs, dating from the time of my medical release.  Then based on my Salary from my civilian employer, and the percentage I was awarded from VAC (I received my pension prior to the new charter) a decision will be made with regads what SISIP will cover me.

After that decision is made, I will be taxed on the total.

I made the comment, that, really there would be no use going forward as I see a total of zero being awarded to me.  She just nervously giggled.

Oh well, strike two with SISIP, I should have expected as much.

I would really like to see that legality of how they have this contract, and how the bid process went into it.

dileas

If you can work, why should you be able to draw LTD SISIP benefits in the first place? These benefits were designed for people who "can't work" and have no other source of income, if that were the case the SISIP program would go bankrupt in a hurry. Sorry you can't have your cake and eat it also. The argument that "it's not fair" is rubbish. The system works and for the people who disagree, haven't taken the time to actually research why and how it works and for whom. Don't bash the program, it works quiet well for those of us who ended up in wheelchairs.

Do you think workmans comp, will continue to pay you if you return to work? NO. And good luck trying get it.
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Can I ask whether your VAC claim was accepted prior to October 2000?  I don’t want to get into personal info you’re not willing to get into- but I can’t see any other reason that your VAC wouldn’t be clawed back by SISIP.  Those of us who receive monthly VAC payments (for claims finalized after October 2000) receive monthly VAC payments but have an equal amount clawed back by SISIP.

There are different scenarios of payment/clawbacks/awards based on when VAC claims were initiated and approved- we may just be all talking about different situations here.

Is that what’s confusing me?

To answer your question, yes i was receiving VAC, while still serving, starting in 1999. Upon my release in 2001, I was sent for retraining by SISIP for two years at the school of my choice. My monthly SISIP payment was clawed back by the amount of my VAC pension, but I was still receiving 75% of my past salary + the cost of my education, which added up to $14,000.00, including, books and equipment. This is the way it's designed to work. After my condition became much worse and it became apparent that i couldn't work, I was placed on LTD SISIP.

I really don't know were this person is planning on going with this, but if that is the case, he will not get very far. All one has to do is look and read your SISIP policy and it's right there in black and white. If this were the case, there would be many of us who felt the same and sued for lost monies. It looks to me that he is trying to get something he was never in tiltled to in the first place under the existing policy guidelines. If he was able to return to work, he shouldn't be drawing SISIP.

Like I stated previously, it doesn't add up. unless he's looking for 100%. But this will never happen.
 
If you can work, why should you be able to draw LTD SISIP benefits in the first place? These benefits were designed for people who "can't work" and have no other source of income, if that were the case the SISIP program would go bankrupt in a hurry. Sorry you can't have your cake and eat it also. The argument that "it's not fair" is rubbish. The system works and for the people who disagree, haven't taken the time to actually research why and how it works and for whom. Don't bash the program, it works quiet well for those of us who ended up in wheelchairs.

Do you think workmans comp, will continue to pay you if you return to work? NO. And good luck trying get it.

Hmm,

So maybe my definition is askew.  Because of the fact that I appear to have my faculties in order, exonerates me making an opinion with regards to compensation by SISIP.  Although I have incurred life long injuries (Hearing Loss, Blindness, Constant head and Muscular pain, psychological, etc), by your reasoning, I have to wait until I am totally incapacitated before I am able to offer an opinion.

Explain to me this, when I was injured I received absolutely zero from SISIP, even when I was put on light duties for close to 3 years, which affected my career and income.  Now after my medical release, I am being assessed based on my civilian employment?  How do they gauge that?  Do they look at my type of employment, years at the job, and assess that I have been held back from possible promotions due to my injuries?  Do they factor that in?  No they look at the face value of my pay stub and claw back.

We are forced to sign up for an insurance program (Literally, or we would not have received our contract to go overseas), pay into it, then receive absolutely nothing when something does happen.  Wouldn't you agree that this practice is odd and unfair?  It is downright illegal, in my opinion!

dileas

tess


 
I think that in my opinion if CF members are being forced to pay into this insurance plan and there are some CF members who do not receive any benefits after they have been injured than they should be able to at least get the money back that they paid into the program .
 
karl28 said:
I think that in my opinion if CF members are being forced to pay into this insurance plan and there are some CF members who do not receive any benefits after they have been injured than they should be able to at least get the money back that they paid into the program .

???

Excuse me! 

Reread what you just wrote and then ask yourself if any Insurance Company in Canada, or the world, would have a Policy stating members who do not receive any benefits after they have been injured should be able to at least get the money back that they paid into the program.

 
Tess I was also turned down the first time I applied for LTD after the initial two years, I went out and found a very good specialist in my case an orthopedic surgeon, who took on my case and we fought for six months to get me reinstated on LTD. SISIP in turn sent me to another specialist of their choosing, as a second opinion and upon receiving the same results from their doctor, reinstated me.

So you see, we don't all automatically get LTD, even the ones of us who are worse off. But again these checks and balances are placed there for a reason. If you feel you should be on LTD, fight for it, find a doctor who will listen to your concerns and back it up with hard medical fact and you'll be surprised what can happen.

As for the ones who say that paying into it should be optional, it was at one time prior the early 80's. But I'm very glad now that I opted to pay into it voluntarily starting in 1979. For the ones who opted not to and ended up getting injured, those are the ones who are much worse of than the rest of us.
 
That is what I am getting at,

To get anything we must fight for it?  We are sent to fight for our country's foreign policy, then come back and fight the state run insurance company for compensation when we are injured?

Although I know that we must fight for it, but I question why should injured Soldiers have to do that?  The government forces us to take the insurance policy that has very strict parameters to be compensated, maybe we should stand up and let the public know of such disgusting practices!

dileas

tess
 
retiredgrunt45 said:
If you can work, why should you be able to draw LTD SISIP benefits in the first place? These benefits were designed for people who "can't work" and have no other source of income, if that were the case the SISIP program would go bankrupt in a hurry. Sorry you can't have your cake and eat it also. The argument that "it's not fair" is rubbish. The system works and for the people who disagree, haven't taken the time to actually research why and how it works and for whom. Don't bash the program, it works quiet well for those of us who ended up in wheelchairs.

To answer your question, yes i was receiving VAC, while still serving, starting in 1999. Upon my release in 2001, I was sent for retraining by SISIP for two years at the school of my choice. My monthly SISIP payment was clawed back by the amount of my VAC pension, but I was still receiving 75% of my past salary + the cost of my education, which added up to $14,000.00, including, books and equipment. This is the way it's designed to work. After my condition became much worse and it became apparent that i couldn't work, I was placed on LTD SISIP.

I really don't know were this person is planning on going with this, but if that is the case, he will not get very far. All one has to do is look and read your SISIP policy and it's right there in black and white. If this were the case, there would be many of us who felt the same and sued for lost monies. It looks to me that he is trying to get something he was never in tiltled to in the first place under the existing policy guidelines. If he was able to return to work, he shouldn't be drawing SISIP.

Like I stated previously, it doesn't add up. unless he's looking for 100%. But this will never happen.

Me again,

SISIP does cooperate with people who can and do work. 

I now work part time out of home, and send in my earnings- my SISIP payments are offset accordingly.  Because, however, I can't hope (at this point) to make even close to what I was earning upon release- or even 75% of that- SISIP still offfers financial support. It doesn't have to be all or nothing. I've found that my case managers think well outside the box.  I'm very appreciative, actually.

That doesn't mean I think they should be getting my VAC award, though.

You stated above that you received your VAC award over and above your full pay and benefits while you were still serving. This is because your VAC award was, in those circumstances, considered independent of your financial situation.  It was your personal award for the disability you suffered in the course of your duties- it was considered a bonus (not really a good word, but I can't think of another) for your sacrifice.  It was not considered income.

Why, upon release and upon entering the SISIP program, and when you needed the money more, was your VAC integrated into your financial situation and considered income?

There will always be comparisons made to other policies and programs for other government workers in seeking fairness for veterans.  I do it all the time. You've made comparisons to Worker's Comp.
The only comparison I have to make when considering the suit Manuge has launched is the comparison between veterans on SISIP and still serving members.  If I compare a still serving, able-to-work member who is receiving a full salary plus his VAC to a medically released, unable-to-work member receiving 75% salary without the benefit of his VAC - I have to say I understand the basis for the suit.

You say that ,"he is trying to get something he was never entitled to in the first place under the existing policy guidelines". 

I get that.  I know what the policy states and what the entitlements are.

Manuge's suit is all about asking whether or not those existing policies are right and fair?

Based on that one comparison I just made- I think not. 

I'm not bashing SISIP - the VAC clawback is, IMO, a small flaw in an otherwise well run program.  My opinion only, of course. From reading other comments- I know that it is not considered in such a positive light by all who access the program.

There are people in many differing stages of this disabiity and release process. 

If I had commented on this two years ago- when I was dealing with the loss of my career and professional status, and we were selling our home in order to downsize, VAC was shutting me out, and life was a painful crap heap- my response would have been much different, and much more emotionally charged and...harsh.

I've had the time to calm down...and adapt...(maybe become a bit complacent) and, as I stated before, was in a pretty good situation (now that I'm thinking more clearly) to weather the storm that came my way. I still always like to look at things as others may see them, however, and do realize that, with the system being as whimsical and varied (unpredictable) as it is, not everyone is in the same place as me or has the same perceptions about the support they are receiving.

You say that "the argument that "it's not fair" is rubbish".  Your opinion- I respect that. 

My opinion, however, is that the unfairness that Manuge is fighting is the actual rubbish.  The fact that he is fighting a point that the Ombudsman dropped the ball on adds to the stench of it.

I wish Manuge well- the policies are not going to change unless someone fights them. I'll be keeping an eye out for ongoing information on his suit.

Bren



 
 
Dennis Manuge is working, and is not currently on LTD, so he is not milking the system, only seeking the money that was deducted during the 24 months he was covered. The lawsuit was only started after the government failed to act on the recommendations of two DND Ombudsmen , and only after several years and an utter failure for the NVC to retroactively correct the policy, unfortunately a time limit had to be place on it, so the ombudsmen chose back to when serving members started being able to receive VAC pension while still serving. Also some have argued that all insurance plans are the same, but they aren't, the public service and politicians insurance plans do not deduct pension act payments from their LTD payments. Pension act monthly payments are not income, I believe it even states it in the act, thus making it tax free, therefor it was illegal for SISIP to include it in their formula as income in the first place, but the MND at the time, as the initial policy holder didn't care, and I highly doubt Veterans Affairs  were consulted beforehand. Also an insurance company, that I had no choice but to pay into, shouldn't penalize members because they were injured on the job, were farther along in their career, or both. A disability is a disability and benefits should be the same for everyone. As a Spec 1 Cpl with 15 years of service and awarded a VAC pension before Apr 2006, I make $3500 per month (75%), of which SISIP only pays $611.00 after taxes. But a member released this year with less than 10 years in, they would get their return of contributions, Severance pay, the SISIP payments of $3500 per month, possibly until 65 plus their disability award, sometimes well over $100,000.00.  And since I can no longer work, that is all I will ever get, and will only be increased by a maximum of 2% each year, even if the national index is much higher.  Meaning if my VAC pension gets indexed by 7% like 2 tears ago, and my superannuation goes up by 3%, it only means less for SISIP to pay, as we cannot make more than a 2% increase in money per year, as it is dictated by SISIP. With the numbers I used, as an example of 2008 rates, if indexing was separate, my next years monthly income would be $3732.00, but using SISIPs method, it would only be $3645.00, a difference of 87 dollars per month, or $1044.00 for the year. Obviously the SISIP program needs to be completely revamped for the betterment of disabled veterans, but it will only happen if they are forced to change, after all this is our money in their pockets, and they don't want to give it away willingly. This is the unfairness that that is being addressed in the lawsuit.
 
Those are some pretty thorough responses!  Good points. 

What is the likelihood of said lawsuit be expanded to a class action suit? (if thats the correct term Im thinking of)
 
Seeing as one of the senior members of a law firm (Branch McMaster) who are a leading Class Action firm, has volunteered to aide in preperation of our case, I say we have a pretty good shot. Also the fact that there are so many of us helps, up to 6000 are covered by the proposed class. If not accepted a class action but Dennis wins, they need to realize, that they would be facing a great deal of lawsuits. I would pay gladly $5000 to get the $36000.00+ they owe me, and since there was presidence, it would be a sure thing, so why not just either fix the issue or not, in one fell swoop, it just makes sense.
 
Bigrex,

I received a little info the other day from another interested veteran that helps to highlight what you're saying about the class action suit.

Link to Boyne Clark website, explaining the collaboration between Boyne Clarke and Branch McMaster, a law firm that specializes in class action cases out of Vancouver.

http://boyneclarke.ns.ca/news.php?id=9

The website gives other links for more info.  Quite informative.

I have a question about one part of it- any legal minds out there?

From the website:

"Since the filing of our statement of claim we have received a significant number of e-mails from former members of the Canadian Forces inquiring as to whether they form part of the class and whether they can join in the action against the Government of Canada. The class we propose to have certified includes all those former member of the Canadian Forces whose SISIP LTD benefits have been reduced by the amount of their VAC Disability Pension. (“SISIP Clawback”) Should the Federal Court certify the class under this definition, any former member of the Canadian Forces subject to the SISIP Clawback would be a part of the class action against the Government of Canada unless they specifically opted out of the action."

Does this mean that we (former members of the Canadian Forces whose SISIP LTD benefits have been reduced by the amount of their VAC Disability Pension) will benefit without having to "sign up" as it were?  We are members of the suit by default and will automatically be compensated by SISIP due to the policy changes that will logically come into affect if the suit wins?

How will this work?

We should be hearing more on this in November or so - it's been in the papers - link is http://cnews.canoe.ca/CNEWS/Canada/2007/09/04/4469622-cp.html if it hasn't already appeared elsewhere on the forum.

Bren
 
Yes, if you are under the "class", then if it is certified as a class action, and won, all in the class will benefit, unless they opt out of the lawsuit. I think the database they have created is more for their records, maybe to present in court, as further proof that this affects a great deal of disabled/ medically released veterans, not just Dennis Manuge, he only had the willingness to take it to court first. Contacting the layers doesn't mean you will be subpoenaed or anything, so it cannot hurt.  Those who do contact them will be notified via email of all important information from the lawyer, or it can usually be read shortly afterwards at veteransvoice.info, so it's up to you. 

Also I'm alot better off than some of the young privates that have been injured in Afghanistan, if they were severely injured and unable to return to work and relied on SISIP to give them money to live off, all that their ruined lives are worth is between $1861.00 and $2735.00 per month plus 2 % each year until 65. So a 20year old who went to Afghanistan , right after battle school, gets injured to the point where he can no longer work, and goes on SiISIP LTD, in 45 years, his monthly earning will go from a max of $1861.00 to $2996.00, just over the unofficial poverty line for a household. And while on SISIP LTD, he cannot seek any additional income other than employment, he cannot apply for CPP disability, because that would get deducted from his sisip cheque 100%, he cannot get any money from VAC, including extra money for dependants, other than the new disability awards, which aren't that big of an amount if you need to make it last all your life. So that 20 year old, injured while serving his country will possibly never own his own house, probably never know the feeling of purchasing a brand new car, never afford to give his children a decent Christmas, or take them to Disneyland, all because of SISIP and greedy uncaring bureaucrats. If we get this settlement, and SISIP stops clawing back our money, people will not get rich, like one guy thinks, and there is a big difference between getting rich and being financially comfortable.
 
I'm with you on all of it.

And thanks for bringing up the younger soldiers again...those are the ones who are affected most by disability and release.  When you look at the benefits that injured personnel are offered- many of them are dependent on salary upon release. 

New/younger military personnel may be getting paid better than they used to, but still, 75% of release salary for some is not all that impressive an amount- especially if there are families and kids involved.

Anyway, thanks for the info.  It's great to see movement on this issue...and there are many, IMO, who ought to be thanking Manuge for sticking his neck out the way he has.

Bren

 
Hi folks

Glad you are discussing this, but those of you willing to settle for the government eating up what is rightly yours....grow a backbone and stand up for yourselves and if you are not willing to do so, stand up for those around you that can not stand up for themselves. I personally stand to gain only about $10 000 from my legal action against the crown. I am not drawing SISIP benefits at the moment and I have not since my 24 month elegibility ran out. I went through VOC Rehab, topped my course, graduated with honours, and gained lawful, full-time employement. I do not need SISIP LTD. I am greatful for my education, but I do believe I earned it when I Broke my back serving this country. What I did not earn was the ability of the federal government to clawback my money illegally. A disability pension is not replacement income, not taxable, and therefore, fundementally it is untouchable by anyone. There are some 70 points of argument in my statement of claim and I suggest any of you weak minded brain washed followers out there, get a grip and give it a read before spewing your ignorant and self defeating words to others when they are simply asking appropriate questions to learn more about the issue that you are to ignorant to learn yourself. As far as me or the class i represent "getting nowhere with this" I urge you to read and follow the story. We will be certified as a Class Action in February of 2008. If you disagree with the two ombudsmen, I look forward to your comments after a federal court judge destroys the crown and there inadequacy in their responsibility to disabled veterans. Stay tuned. Yours very seriously and sincerely, Dennis Manuge
 
I am more concerned with the so-called assistance in helping medically released service members find new employment for those who can work, or even work with accommodation (although I will admit this is less important than clawing back money from veterans dependent on that support).  As far as I am concerned, ex-service members are deliberately excluded and denied access to competitions and positions in other government departments, that includes civilian positions with the RCMP, DFO, HRSDC and many other government departments.  Many of these work-places are able to support disabled and injured people, they make accommodations for their own employees, yet they have no interest in hiring former CF members.  Further, the system of advertisement and competition specifications are rigged against CF members despite the fact that they are able to move to another part of the country to work at that position.  What is worse, is that SISIP representatives (among others) are aware of this but do nothing with the information. 

To fix this I would suggest the CF implement a post-release follow-up interview process to gain information from released veterans.  This would address not only this issue, but other issues that might exist.  At this moment, there is no effort to find out what is wrong with the system except when a retired member complains through a  third party such as an ombudsman (such as whats going on now with the 'clawback' issue).  Although the military is not responsible for my welfare after release, it is responsible for ensuring that former members are treated properly and giving access to jobs as part of the release process.  At the moment there is no means for them to ascertain this other than through service providers.
 
Greymatters
you make very good points and you understand what some of the real issues are. That is why i am seeking support to have a public inquiry  on a systemic scale into how we (disabled veterans) have been, and are being treated. Thanks for your comments.
Dennis
 
dennismanuge said:
... Thanks for your comments... 

In this matter, thank you, but I must defer subject matter expertise to our resident guru (IMO) on the subject, 48th Regulator (visible as the brown monk drinking ale).  He is much more active and informed on the subject than I am.

"Oh master, a new disciple approaches..."   ;D
 
dennismanuge said:
Hi folks

Glad you are discussing this, but those of you willing to settle for the government eating up what is rightly yours....grow a backbone and stand up for yourselves and if you are not willing to do so, stand up for those around you that can not stand up for themselves. I personally stand to gain only about $10 000 from my legal action against the crown. I am not drawing SISIP benefits at the moment and I have not since my 24 month eligibility ran out. I went through VOC Rehab, topped my course, graduated with honors, and gained lawful, full-time employment. I do not need SISIP LTD. I am grateful for my education, but I do believe I earned it when I Broke my back serving this country. What I did not earn was the ability of the federal government to claw back my money illegally. A disability pension is not replacement income, not taxable, and therefore, fundamentally it is untouchable by anyone. There are some 70 points of argument in my statement of claim and I suggest any of you weak minded brain washed followers out there, get a grip and give it a read before spewing your ignorant and self defeating words to others when they are simply asking appropriate questions to learn more about the issue that you are to ignorant to learn yourself. As far as me or the class I represent "getting nowhere with this" I urge you to read and follow the story. We will be certified as a Class Action in February of 2008. If you disagree with the two ombudsmen, I look forward to your comments after a federal court judge destroys the crown and there inadequacy in their responsibility to disabled veterans. Stay tuned. Yours very seriously and sincerely, Dennis Manuge

Dennis Welcome aboard, you are the person we have been waiting for on this thread.

Too much has been said about your situation and you cause, and some of us have been supportive of it.

You see, I was told exactly what you are fighting for.  The fact that I collect a VAC pension, that SISIP considers this an actual income.

Do I claim this pension on my taxes?  No. So then tell me how they are able to win the bid to be the supplier of our insurance, if they contravene the policy of our own government.

As you have said, two ombudsman have declared this to be wrong.

Now me, I have a lot more to fight.  I just received the letter stating that since my injuries occurred before 1999, there is a clause that states, because I did not pay into SISIP, I am unable to claim.  Fair enough, I did not pay into it.  However, when I was injured I did pay into it, and was denied then.

Am I going to fight it?  Hell ya!  I look at what you are trying to do, and again, $10,000 is not that much, but it is the principle.  Should we grow a spine and do this?  Maybe your post will help others to do this.

But what I have to say brother, is you are preaching to the quire here.  This site is in no way associated with DND, The CF, or SISIP.  All privately owned.  We abide by the rules that any soldier follows, and that is what keeps this site above and beyond others.

Again, thank you Dennis, and all I ask is that you become an active member here.  We need the input of someone that is working to make a change for the better for all of us that have, are, and will serve.

dileas

tess
 
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