restructure of Canada national security department

[Manimal]

You did indeed admit your lack of knowledge, then proceeded to comment on (and compare) the training of various special forces units.   There are very few people in Canada who (IMHO) are qualified to do that - even serving CF members.

I'm no old hand on this site, but even I have seen threads rapidly degenerate into nonsense as soon as special forces are mentioned.

Enough from me - back to your discussion at hand.

i have NO idea what the JTF 2 is really about. and there is nothing more then wanting to have great pride in our special forces. and my question was...(i hope) are they trained to that level. i wish we had the years of experience the SAS have, and in reading about the SAS, many many times, they point out the eliteness of other forces, mainly the USMC. i think IMHO they are the best common mil body in the world...they boardline elite. i know Canada has different values and standards the the US, not to put either country down, but we are different cultures, and the time has come to take example from our brothers from the US, and england. we haven't needed special forces for a long time..... and i think maybe that was a mistake, although we haven't needed them. and to be honest, i know nothing about CSIS, or CES, or any of those other bbody'smentioned here. NO idea we had those, i thought the RCMP were the top, with a few SS around the PM. LOL, my ignorance is great. i did not mean to sound like i was putting Canada down, or any units. the gov't, i'll openly bash, but not here lol.

 

[Infanteer]

:

Move along now, nothing to see here - back to the discussion at hand....

 

[Teddy Ruxpin]

In that vein... 

All of those orgs, including DND, have representation on the Privy Council Office intelligence section. The PCO is the "clearing house," and while it isn't the same as the Brit JIC, it performs a similar function.

But have there not been complaints in the media lately that the PCO isn't represented in the new PSEPC "command centre"?  On the int side the PCO system might function well (I don't know) but perhaps, given the carping, it doesn't on the operational side...  I've only ever see "them" in action at the provincial level, where the system worked relatively well.

I agree, though, that a "super Ministry" likely isn't the way to go.  However, we're rapidly becoming like the Americans, where there are all sorts of policing agencies that need better coordination.  PSEPC was (AFAIK) designed to do this - and I am not in a position to say whether it's been effective or not.

I also agree that a "super" civilian domestic and foreign intelligence agency wouldn't be all that productive.  Accurate or not, CSIS' public record isn't all that good and they have their hands full dealing with domestic threats.

My 2 cents...

TR

 

[Kal]

I am aware that the JTF2 does foreign and domestic ops, but I was replying to McG's comment and was wondering if another unit could be stood up?  The both of you Teddy and Infanteer have answered my question, that there are avenues that are used for when the abilities of this unit are needed.  Thank you.

 

[McG]

I am aware that the JTF2 does foreign and domestic ops, but I was replying to McG's comment and was wondering if another unit could be stood up?

There is no need for another unit.  If the JTF2 is needed for a domestic op, the CF can provide it.  This is why JTF2 need not be discussed here.  Instead, the coordination and communication between DND & a DNS to ensure the seamless support of DND assets to security/emergency ops when required.

As Teddy Ruxpin, many of these mechanisms are already in place.

 

[Slim]

Guys and gals

This is a good thread and I would like to see it stay open.

I'm taking down the last bit of nonesence and we can continue on as if nothing (or no one) hapened.

Cheers

A

Leter...

There done..Sorry for any bent feelings biut all too often a thread that starts out great devolves into crap when some youngster comes on and starts to go on about JTFSNIPERPATHFINDERWANNABE.

Please continue this excellent discussion.

Cheers all.

 

[mcnutt_p]

Why not create the department, using DND as an example. Have a department head and then under him section heads (RCMP Commissioner, CCG "Admiral" etc)

Why not create an office in Ottawa that houses a small det from each section within the department. Use the sections only as needed. Although I do like the idea of CSIS controlling in-tel investigations.

McNutt

 

[McG]

CSE is under DND, and should remain there for a variety of reasons (a pool of SIGINT expertise, for one).

I foresaw this becoming more of an inter-departmental agency (including CF pers).  Though, this might not be compatible with the NDA.

 

[Manimal]

Why not create the department, using DND as an example. Have a department head and then under him section heads (RCMP Commissioner, CCG "Admiral" etc)

Why not create an office in Ottawa that houses a small det from each section within the department. Use the sections only as needed. Although I do like the idea of CSIS controlling in-tel investigations.

McNutt

i don't understand why, but i posted saying basically the same thing. have they Terror investigations all run under a unit of CF, have the intell gather from there, have the search and destroy under that, it used here and aboard.......

 

[mcnutt_p]

So you are saying attach CSE with say CSIS. Allow them to stay under Op control of DND but assist CSIS in intel gathering ops.

If CSE is currently working like this disregard last.

McNutt

 

[Teddy Ruxpin]

I foresaw this becoming more of an inter-departmental agency (including CF pers).  Though, this might not be compatible with the NDA.

Is that not what PSEPC is supposed to do?  I do remember that OCIPEP (the precursor to PSEPC) was removed from the DND umbrella for precisely this reason...

mcnutt_p:  your idea sounds much like they've tried to do in the US (without the departmental responsibility for agencies).  The problem you run into is that many agencies (RCMP for example) have legislative responsibilities that prevent them from reporting to a "Homeland Security" minister and other responsibilities besides homeland defence.  The span of control for such a ministry would be horrific...  Take the CCG - they could be stopping terrorists one day, but doing fishery protection the next, and search and rescue the next...

No, a coordinating agency is the way to go, as MCG suggests, including an intelligence side divorced from the PCO (IMHO).

Edit:  For info, CSE is legislatively prevented from collecting domestic intelligence.

 

[mcnutt_p]

i don't understand why, but i posted saying basically the same thing. have they Terror investigations all run under a unit of CF, have the intell gather from there, have the search and destroy under that, it used here and aboard.......

I am not saying to create a unit under the CF. I was say to create department to take care or all matters of homeland security.

This department would not just be used for "terror investigation" it would be used for all intel gathering, fishing interdiction, border protection, and any other operations tasked to it, as needed

McNutt

 

[Acorn]

As mentioned there are legislative limits to how some of these organisations can act. CSE and CSIS are pretty-well mutually exclusive - one (CSE) is a SIGINT org prohibited from domestic int collection, and the other is a domestic security org with limited foreign collection capability. Where they can, they certainly cooperate, but it would be a mistake to put them together.

As I understand the role of PCO on the int side, it acts as a committee to fuse the int from various orgs into a "common picture" to present to decision makers in the PMO. The goal is to avoid conflicting reporting, which is/was an issue in the US, where the CIA, NSA, FBI and DIA may well have differing interpretations of the same source. Given that those US orgs all had/have independent access to the Executive, it could create confusion.

Teddy makes a good point: PCO doesn't have an "act" function. It is essentially an All Source Intelligence Centre writ large. I think I understand your point about an agency divorced from PCO.

While I think that there could be some rationalization of what currently exists in Canada, I don't see the creation of a mega-bureaucracy as the solution. It may speed up the reaction time, but at what cost? Neither do we need to start expanding the powers of existing departments 'till they overlap to the point of duplication.

Acorn

 

[Allen]

A Department of National Security should include:

RCMP
CCG
CSE
CSIS
CBSA
PSEPC

AFAIK, PSEPC is supposed to be our equivalent of a Dept. of Nat'l Sec.

It seems that RCMP, CSIS, and CBSA are already under the umbrella of PSEPC, along with Correctional Sevices, the Parole Board and the Canada Firearms Centre (is this the infamous gun registry?).

At least that's the impression I get from this web page from the official site:http://www.psepc.gc.ca/about/overview_e.asp

Does this mean that the heads of these 6 agencies report to the Minister of PSEP?

How are illegal fisherman creating terror?

Simple: They cause Canadians to flee in terror from their wretched, fishy B.O.

 

[edadian]

An overarching intelligence department has been tried in several countries, almost always with disastrous results. The most famous one was broken up in 1991 for trying to overthrow the President...yes I am talking of the KGB. We do not want to give one minister to much power and we don't want to create a police state.

Part of the roll of intelligence and security agencies is to keep an eye out for the abuses of other agencies. A working committee of agency heads and inter-agency work groups for specific assignments would be the best way of going.

What Canada needs to focus on now is creation of a foreign spy service in Foreign Affairs separate from the current Security Intelligence Bureau. This would help identify terror cells abroad and their connections in Canada. This agency should have the ability to call in JTF2 for specific assignments the way MI6 calls in the SAS.

 

[McG]

AFAIK, PSEPC is supposed to be our equivalent of a Dept. of Nat'l Sec.

It seems that RCMP, CSIS, and CBSA are already under the umbrella of PSEPC, along with Correctional Sevices, the Parole Board and the Canada Firearms Centre.

Yes, that is PSEPC.   However, it has only been around since 04 Apr of this year so I threw it in my list expecting that it would not be well known.  http://www.psepc.gc.ca/publications/news/2005/20050404_e.asp

However, without the Coast Guard under this organization, PSEPC cannot fill the full spectrum of public safety, national security, and emergency preparedness that it should.

RCMP and Canadian Coast Guard Begin Joint Marine Security Patrols Along Great Lakes and St. Lawrence Seaway
July 13, 2005

OTTAWA â “ The Royal Canadian Mounted Police (RCMP) and the Canadian Coast Guard (CCG) are initiating joint marine security and law enforcement patrols along the Great Lakes and St. Lawrence River. This partnership creates a major new on-water enforcement presence and fast-response capacity on these waterways.

...

This partnership will see the RCMP and CCG coordinating their efforts, resources and expertise. It will provide RCMP officers with the capacity to better disrupt and eliminate the activities of organized crime groups and to enhance national security along the Great Lakes and St. Lawrence River. The initiative also includes the participation and cooperation of provincial and municipal police forces.

http://www.dfo-mpo.gc.ca/media/newsrel/2005/hq-ac66_e.htm

 

[mcnutt_p]

Why not add the NAVRES to the patrols. It would allow for a larger joint operation and to see how others work. For example put CCG personal on naval ships and vis-versa. This would not only give the CCG working knowledge of armed operations.

Ideas about arming the CCG
http://forums.army.ca/forums/threads/32547.0.html

 

[edadian]

A Canadian Intelligence Primer. Here are some of the agencies gathering intelligence in our country and their oversight.

Privy Council Office and SIRC (Security Intelligence Review Committee)

DND - J2 and CSE both call on rest of CF as needed

PSEPC - CSIS and RCMP - NSIS for counter terrorism and counter intelligence - Criminal Intelligence Service - etc.

Industry Canada - Business Intelligence Express, Competetive Intelligence E-monitor, Security and Cryptography

Foriegn Affairs - Security Intellignec Bureau for over seas mission protection and hopefully a foriegn intelligence agency

Many other departments have

http://www.pco-bcp.gc.ca/docs/images/pub_si_org_e.jpg this an old chart I found online.

http://circ.jmellon.com/ is the Canadian Intelligence Resource Centre and full of information

 

[Acorn]

Foriegn Affairs - Security Intellignec Bureau for over seas mission protection and hopefully a foriegn intelligence agency

Oh, I hope not!

Acorn

 

[Slim]

Oh, I hope not!

Acorn

I will echo Acorn on this.

F.A. are most deffinetely not the best agency to be doing that. Their orientation is entirely different and they are not suited in the least for the oversight role.

Cheers