Reservist probed for 'racist activity' as police prepare for white pride rally

[the 48th regulator]

My mistake, I had no idea I had to achieve the status of "old fart" before I can wonder how rules and regulations I am from time to time subject to work.

I haven't seen everything, not by a long shot, just stating what I HAVE seen, with just shy of 10 years in the CF, I've seen my fair share of administrative releases of reservists. More to the point, I've seen several situations where I've wondered why somone WASN'T released, and I've always been curious why/why not the chain of command chose to make those decisions.

I was asking a question, a very legitimate question in this case. I was asking where the authority for the chain of command to deal with this sort of thing came from, when not subject to the NDA, and how an individuals chain of command would go about it.

Administrative action or disciplinary action, it all needs justification, or it's not going to surive a redress. Tess mostly answered my question, with the wording of a 5(f) release.

Now, on the subject of disciplinary vs administrative action, would there be/could there be any authority for disciplinary action by the individuals chain of command?

If the Media was able to find out that he served, then his posts on Facebook, along with any identification of being a serving member opens the door for him to at least be charged with, if the Allegations against him are true.

QR&Os: Volume II - Chapter 103
Service Offences

There is a myriad of offenses he can be charged with, if you read the QR&Os that I have linked to, but the all encompassing, and favourite one;

103.60 – CONDUCT TO THE PREJUDICE OF
GOOD ORDER AND DISCIPLINE

(1) Section 129 of the National Defence Act


Read the attached link, as it states the whole kit and kaboodal what the chain of command may use against him, if the allegation are found to be true.



dileas

tess

 

[ballz]

Tell that to the young soldier who said that the Airborne shouldn't have been disbanded. He was charged and found guilty.

What profession are you in anyways ballz? Grow up. You're in the PROFESSION of ARMS. Take your release and go protest.

You're comparison isn't even relevant. That's clearly in contradiction to the government and the CF.

I respect your opinion, and I realize it's based on more years of experience than I've got years of breathing. Sometimes a blanket rule would solve a lot of grey problems, and you might be able to enlighten me, and I'm even open to being convinced that it would be for the best in this case. But you certainly won't just by stamping your feet and tellng me to release. Really, what were you saying about growing up?

For one thing, I already said I wouldn't encourage any CF members to go participating in protests. Clearly, I don't. But I'm not narrow-scoped enough to expect everybody abide by my own personal policies, or that everyone should.

So I'll take a raincheque on that release, and if you've got a probem with that, maybe you should seek changes to the offiicial polices so that they reflect your concern, because right now they don't, so you've got no place telling members to release for abiding by them, regardless of how you feel they *should* be.

 

[jwtg]

You're comparison isn't even relevant. That's clearly in contradiction to the government and the CF.

And racism/white supremacy/discrimination AREN'T in contradiction to the government and the CF?

 

[Blackadder1916]

I don't think I've ever personally seen an example where somone was disciplined or released for somthing they've done contrary to the NDA, while not subject to the NDA.

This may be just semantics, but  . . . .  The phrase "subject to the NDA" is often (mistakenly) used to refer to situations of this nature in determining if disciplinary actions can be taken against part-time members.  Everyone in Canada (with maybe the exception of accredited foreign diplomats) is subject to the provisions of the National Defence Act.  That piece of legislation is the legal basis for all most aspects of our national defence -- providing for the establishment of the government department responsible for that service, the raising and organization of military forces to accomplish the tasks necessary to defend our country, the recruiting of people to fill that military organization, the authority by which we pay, feed, cloth and pension those people, establishing restrictions on entering military property, the granting of authority to tell others what to do and  . . . among many, many other things provides the legal basis to take disciplinary action, which is in fact only one separate part of the NDA.  It would be more appropriate to say "subject to the Code of Service Discpline" when determining if the organization can take punitive action against a member.  A reservist is always subject to the NDA, otherwise how could he legally be enrolled, given a uniform and other equipment, be retained in the organization, be paid, accumulate credit towards his CD and on and on; however, he is not always subject to the CSD.

 

[ballz]

And racism/white supremacy/discrimination AREN'T in contradiction to the government and the CF?

We were talking about peaceful protests in general, not their causes.

I already made my feelings clear on this "white pride" "gay pride" "black pride" issue. It's all stupid on so many levels that it makes me dizzy.

 

[OldSolduer]

Before we run this 17 year old out of town on a rail, let's cut him some slack.

He's SEVENTEEN. He can change. How many of us on here have not made errors in judgement?

 

[jwtg]

We were talking about peaceful protests in general, not their causes.

I already made my feelings clear on this "white pride" "gay pride" "black pride" issue. It's all stupid on so many levels that it makes me dizzy.

So was that guy who criticized the disbanding of the Airborne violent when he made his comments?  Or peaceful?

The cause is exactly what you were talking about.

 

[jwtg]

Before we run this 17 year old out of town on a rail, let's cut him some slack.

He's SEVENTEEN. He can change. How many of us on here have not made errors in judgement?

Fair enough, in a way.
I mean, I made mistakes...but I was never a racist.

 

[OldSolduer]

Fair enough, in a way.
I mean, I made mistakes...but I was never a racist.

That's great, I'm glad you aren't racist. I knew plenty of people in rank who were.

Don't fall into the trap of kicking everyone out who violates policies. Its patently unfair and does not give the member a chance to correct shortcomings.

 

[ballz]

So was that guy who criticized the disbanding of the Airborne violent when he made his comments?  Or peaceful?

The cause is exactly what you were talking about.

I suggest you go back and read mine and MWO Seggie's exchanges before you start getting excited.

He said, and I'm paraphrasing, "CF Members shouldn't participate in *any* protests. Period." And I said, again, paraphrasing, "I don't see a problem with peaceful protests as long as they aren't contradicting/opposing the government or CF."

There are two things there. "Peaceful" and "not in contradiction to/opposing the govenment and/or CF." MWO Seggie's example does not fit that criteria. It also doesn't fit in the protests/rallying criteria either, but what's the point in staying on track when we've got this far off already.

EDIT: For accuracy, this is what I'm referring to:

In my opinion members of the CF should NOT involve themselves in political activity of any sort. We are loyal to the country only, and not any political party or cause.

2nd EDIT, for more accuracy:

I don't see anything wrong with a CF member taking part in peaceful protests/demonstrations/etc., as long as they aren't in uniform or openly stating they are a CF member, and if the CF does it isn't reflected in the QR&Os. Is it a good idea? Probably not, because things can go awry and you're setting yourself up to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, even if you didn't do anything wrong.

I realize now I didn't specify "as long as it's not in contradiction/opposing the government/CF" in that one, but that's the point of not being in uniform and not identifying yourself as a CF member. That is all the written policy calls for IIRC.

 

[Strike]

All,

QR&O 19.14 is pretty specific:

19.14 – IMPROPER COMMENTS

(1) No officer or non-commissioned member shall make remarks or pass criticism tending to bring a superior into contempt, except as may be necessary for the proper presentation of a grievance under Chapter 7 (Grievances). (15 June 2000)

(2) No officer or non-commissioned member shall do or say anything that:
(a) if seen or heard by any member of the public, might reflect discredit on the Canadian Forces or on any of its members; or
(b) if seen by, heard by or reported to those under him, might discourage them or render them dissatisfied with their condition or the duties on which they are employed.

And then there's QR&O 19.36  (Only the relevant article is included)

19.36 – DISCLOSURE OF INFORMATION OR OPINION

(2) Subject to article 19.375 (Communications to News Agencies), no officer or non-commissioned member shall without permission obtained under article 19.37 (Permission to Communicate Information):

(g) take part in public in a discussion relating to orders, regulations or instructions issued by the member’s superiors;

I'd say that it's pretty cut and dried.  It doesn't have to be anything against the Government or the Canadian Forces for the first order posted.  As for the second order, that covers the young man who asked why his fire team partner was still in.  Neither article says anything about being in uniform or identifying oneself as military.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

I said at the beginining of the thread for people to watch how they conducted themselves in this thread.

Saying what should be done, if the allegations are true, does nothing to hide the intent or discolour the comment. You're still putting him on trial. Unfairly, as no one here knows the facts. Even the press, that you are relying on doesn't have the full story.

That hasn't stopped them coming here and watching the antics of this thread, looking for a quote or some other juicy tidbit to use. They've been here often to watch this goat rodeo.

I'll suggest that before someone says something that we'll all be sorry for, that the vast majority, if not all of you, go find something else to do until this develops a little further.

Milnet.ca Staff

 

[chrisf]

This may be just semantics, but  . . . . 

Not semantics, excellent point, the CSD is a distinct part of the NDA.

 

[Newapplicant78]

I couldn't even make it through this full thread without feeling bewildered.


A young man openly admits to being racist.
Now there is a debate as to his actions,  his punishment etc...

There was probably other comments that got me by the collar.

I don't see anything wrong with a CF member taking part in peaceful protests/demonstrations/etc., as long as they aren't in uniform or openly stating they are a CF member, and if the CF does it isn't reflected in the QR&Os. Is it a good idea? Probably not, because things can go awry and you're setting yourself up to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, even if you didn't do anything wrong.

Also, I'm not a white supremicist, nor would I attend a "white pride" parade, I think it's quite stupid, just like I think a black pride parade is stupid. But I am a bit offended that there are gay pride parades, black pride parades, "insert random thing here" parades, but a white pride parade is expected to be met with violence.

I can't speak on the Hitler and Mussolini quotes, but a CF member shouldn't get in trouble for attending a white pride parade if a CF member isn't going to get in trouble for attending a black pride parade, and I'm quite sure we recently authorized members to attend a gay pride parade in uniform.

EDIT: Was not under the impression that multihobbiest meant his questions were about white supremacy in the CF and his fireteam partner... Might be the green beers kickin in.

1) This protest would have never ended peacefully
2) Wearing the uniform entails upholding the ideals of this country. Whoever may not been wearing the uniform this http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Somalia_Affair should stand as a reminder. Disgraceful It's was my reminder.
3) What would this youth do with a person of colour was his commanding officer?
4) There are no BLACK Pride parades we have cultural parades the celebrate our Caribbean culture which is made up of Africans,Caucasians,South Asians, Asians and Latino's.  It is a cultural celebrated by all. :nod: Mind you this young man was participating in a protest  :rage: and not celebration.


As what is to happen to this youth perhaps re-education is in order or reprimand. I'm kinda rough around the edges as to what these guys actually believe in now a days.
However, after tutoring my students (Muslims) and telling them we have to respect people for who they are I know this ideal  :facepalm:  is not unknown to me.
People may not look, act or behave the way we think is "normal" but we live in a country that allows this type of freedom. We are not allowed to HATE (the only way to describe anti-racists HATERS)
However, there are people out there that will, and when they do we can only show them love.
Love concurs all evils and when evil is confronted by love it does not know what to do.
Confrontations of ignorance are only met by more ignorance and it's not always necessary to be By Any Means Necessary.  :threat:
I've gotta go work out now  :2c: :2c:

 

[Fishbone Jones]

For the last time.

This is an open investigation by police agencies and the CF. This is no different than any other open case involving CF pers that we've had in the past. We won't talk about it until the investigation is complete.

If you want to talk generalities of policy, the NDA or anything else in relation to this type of incident, that's fine. Do it without defining specifics to an open case.

We won't comment on any specifics of the case or the person alleged of certain actions involved in this case until he is properly judged by the designated authorities.

Every person is innocent until proven guilty and sanctioned by the proper entity. That is not us. They are also allowed to have their case spoken to and defended in the proper venue where they can face their accusers. That is not here.

Milnet.ca Staff

 

[nuclearzombies]

http://www.calgarysun.com/news/alberta/2011/03/19/17685181.html

Looks like the Calgary Police Service owned the show in Calgary on saturday..... I took MWO Seggie's suggestion and decied not to attend, true to fashion the ARA/anarchist types wore their silly masks and *tried* to manouver around police to start trouble......

 

[PMedMoe]

One white-pride demonstrator, who spoke under the condition of anonymity, said accusations of racism and violence are “manufactured,” and he simply wants to be free to be proud of who he is.

“They can have black pride, Native pride, but you can’t have white pride,” he said.

“All I want is the right to be proud of my culture.”

Watch the video at the link provided by nuclearzombies.  Most of the "white pride" demonstrators wear bandannas covering their faces.  If they're so "proud" of who they are, why do they not show their faces?  :

 

[Newapplicant78]

The right to be proud of culture...WHAT A JOKE

Where do you come from? I can count many celebrations/festival that celebrate culture.
What they are demonstrating is HATE. I wish some of these folks would sit down with their parents/grand parents and figure out where they come from so they can feel like they belong somewhere. They all lack a sense of belonging.
I know that when streams of slaves from America came across the border they were met with a government that tried to tighten(cut off) immigration to the slaves by law and since it was an election year the Bill never passed.  :nod:
Your breed is dying (HATERS) only 16 of them showed up not even showing their faces what cowards. (Thank you PMedMoe) But it goes to show you that there are still people like them out there only they are smarter and can use the system. Afro centric schools allowed in parts of Canada because it is law. Go Figure 8

 

[vonGarvin]

Afro centric schools allowed in parts of Canada because it is law. Go Figure 8

This, for the life of me, I cannot fathom.  I suppose I will when Asian, European and other "groups" have their own schools.  Because what I think unites us as a citizenry best is dividing us by the very things against which we are supposed not to discriminate.

 

[nuclearzombies]

Watch the video at the link provided by nuclearzombies.  Most of the "white pride" demonstrators wear bandannas covering their faces.  If they're so "proud" of who they are, why do they not show their faces?  :

The guy that made that statment (forgot his name) was convicted in '08, '09, and '10 (a hat trick!) for assault, all three on persons of ethnicity other than caucsian. The fat guy standing next to him is John Marleau, who threatened a Calgary Transit operator with a knife and ended up being tasered in front of a large crowd downtown during the morning rush. The funny thing is, disguising your face is fooling nobody. No doubt the CPS have a nice, thick file on them and the ARA/anarchists. That Jason Devine guy isn't much better, ask him sometime about how he hates our government, the CF, and pretty much anything tht does't conform to his cutesy Marxist-Leninist ideology. I knew Jason from high school, he was a leftist wingnut back then too.