Reservist probed for 'racist activity' as police prepare for white pride rally

[Fishbone Jones]

This is exactly what we're talking about. You guys haven't even gotten enough information from each other, or are misunderstanding each other, to discuss your own posts and the result is that in the first page, the thread is a train wreck.

Congratulations :facepalm:

Milnet.ca Staff

Sorry Infanteer, you got above me.

 

[OldSolduer]

He's allowed to ask questions as long as he's not wearing a CF uniform slash openly stating "I am a CF member blah blah blah."

I don't see anything wrong with a CF member taking part in peaceful protests/demonstrations/etc., as long as they aren't in uniform or openly stating they are a CF member, and if the CF does it isn't reflected in the QR&Os. Is it a good idea? Probably not, because things can go awry and you're setting yourself up to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, even if you didn't do anything wrong.
I can't speak on the Hitler and Mussolini quotes, but a CF member shouldn't get in trouble for attending a white pride parade if a CF member isn't going to get in trouble for attending a black pride parade, and I'm quite sure we recently authorized members to attend a gay pride parade in uniform.

I do. We have all sworn oaths. In my mind that means we abstain from making political comment.  I reckon though I should do that myself.

 

[ballz]

I do. We have all sworn oaths. In my mind that means we abstain from making political comment.  I reckon though I should do that myself.

Sworn oaths to execute orders, not to not voice our opinions.

A peaceful protest is not "against the government" it is just voicing opinion. It's hardly different from voting IMO.

 

[George Wallace]

Sworn oaths to execute orders, not to not voice our opinions.

A peaceful protest is not "against the government" it is just voicing opinion. It's hardly different from voting IMO.

That is a very thin line that you have to take care not to cross.

 

[multihobbist]

He's allowed to ask questions as long as he's not wearing a CF uniform slash openly stating "I am a CF member blah blah blah."

I don't see anything wrong with a CF member taking part in peaceful protests/demonstrations/etc., as long as they aren't in uniform or openly stating they are a CF member, and if the CF does it isn't reflected in the QR&Os. Is it a good idea? Probably not, because things can go awry and you're setting yourself up to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, even if you didn't do anything wrong.

Also, I'm not a white supremicist, nor would I attend a "white pride" parade, I think it's quite stupid, just like I think a black pride parade is stupid. But I am a bit offended that there are gay pride parades, black pride parades, "insert random thing here" parades, but a white pride parade is expected to be met with violence.

I can't speak on the Hitler and Mussolini quotes, but a CF member shouldn't get in trouble for attending a white pride parade if a CF member isn't going to get in trouble for attending a black pride parade, and I'm quite sure we recently authorized members to attend a gay pride parade in uniform.

-Addition, I heard about wearing uniform to gay pride parade, in fact my some of my good friends were asked to by the CoC and we had humourous remarks since these guys weren't gay.

EDIT: Was not under the impression that multihobbiest meant his questions were about white supremacy in the CF and his fireteam partner... Might be the green beers kickin in.

Well you're very correct about miscommunication.
I had two sentences separate because they were quite unrelated to eachother. My question was completely related to the CF. It was regarding reduced tax vs increasing public services.

I'm trying to point out the fact that it's sensitive what you say to who and where as far as you're a CF member because the words spread pretty fast, and a lot of times it changes due to miscommunication.

 

[RubberTree]

Perhaps oddly, I find it encouraging that the article made the news. If the subject was Joe Blow, a fast food chain employee, there would be no story. The only reason this even made print is that this young man has presented himself as both a CF member and (perhaps) a racist...an obvious exception to the general way that CF members are viewed by both the media and the general public.
Now if charges are laid or a punishment imposed and that too were to be published, I would be doubly encouraged.
RT

 

[nuclearzombies]

You may want to rethink attending. These events can get out of hand very quickly, and it doesn't matter why you're there.

It did in fact become violent in '09 - there was somwhat of a running street fight between 40-50 boneheads, and hundreds of angry protesters. I have to compliment the Calgary Police Service  for their professional response, they ultimately comandeered a Calgary Transit bus to evacuate the boneheads.
What really shocked me is how quickly the crowd turned ugly, considering how happy the earlier part of the rally seemed. There were people throwing things like cans of beans, eggs, a brick even! The Anti Racist Action people were instigating much of the fighting, and most of them wore balaclavas which rubbed me the wrong way. I dont believe in wearing a disguise in a public venue.

Don't worry, I tend to stay where I can beat it if I have to. And I certainly won't be causing any trouble myself, I'm a law abiding type these days

 

[The Bread Guy]

For the record, someone Postmedia News believes to be the individual in question is quoted denying the allegations:

“A Winnipeg teenage military reservist under investigation by the Canadian Forces says allegations of racist activity levied against him aren't true.  The 17-year-old also said while he'd considered attending the white pride march in Calgary Saturday to watch — not participate — he cancelled the plans weeks ago.  The teenager says while he is proud of his German-Ukrainian heritage, he does not believe in white supremacy.  "I do not believe the white race is the master race. I do not believe any races are inferior. I don't want any harm to happen to anyone," he said.  The teenager said he upholds all military values. "I don't care if you're homosexual, Asian, Muslim — we're all there for the same reason, and that's the defence of Canada." …. The teenager said he's since taken down postings on his Facebook page, including quotes from Hitler and Mussolini.  He said he put them up because he sees them as "powerful," in the sense of being willing to stand up and fight for beliefs.  "I don't want to give the wrong impression," he said. "Just because an evil person did and said many evil things, does not mean everything he said was wrong."  He said he'd previously posted on a white supremacist forum, but doesn't belong to any such groups and has since "matured" in his beliefs ….

 

[OldSolduer]

Sworn oaths to execute orders, not to not voice our opinions.

A peaceful protest is not "against the government" it is just voicing opinion. It's hardly different from voting IMO.

Tell that to the young soldier who said that the Airborne shouldn't have been disbanded. He was charged and found guilty.

What profession are you in anyways ballz? Grow up. You're in the PROFESSION of ARMS. Take your release and go protest.

 

[chrisf]

I'm seeing a problem here...

If the allegations against the individual are true, ethical and moral considerations aside, if he's a reservist, and this is on his own time, what's he guilty of?

There's a very clearly defined set of circumstances where the individual is subject to the NDA, and orders issued under the authority of the NDA.

If you're not subject to the NDA, you can't violate the NDA.

As an example, a while back, the RSM of a unit phoned one of it's members at home, and demanded they come to work. The member pretty much told the RSM to shove it (Although in politer words). The RSM was livid, and wanted the member charged with insubordination. The member, however, at the time, not subject to the NDA, as such, no insubordination was commited. The RSM may not have liked the individual much after that, but still, not subject to the NDA, can't violate it.

Now don't get me wrong, I'm perfectly in favor of giving the flick to any member who spends their weekends at a white pride rally, regardless of status of service, I'm just wondering if there would be authority to do so.

Quite frankly, if there was authority to do so, I'd be quite happy with giving the entire body of the rally the flick out of the country into the sea.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

He doesn't have to violate the NDA.  He doesn't have to be charged.  He can be adminstratively separated from the CF.

All hypothetically of course, because these are still allegations.

 

[chrisf]

He doesn't have to violate the NDA.  He doesn't have to be charged.  He can be adminstratively separated from the CF.

Still need justification to administratively release somone.

If an individual doesn't violate the NDA because they're not subject to it, and doesn't violate any civil laws, then the individual hasn't really done anything "wrong" (Again, ethics and morality aside), so what's the justification for release? Or any sort of action by the chain of command?

Don't get me wrong, not trying to be argumentative, legitimately wondering here, how would an individuals chain of command go about dealing with somthing like this? It's well above me to deal with these sort of things, but I'm curious, based on a few situations I've seen in the past. If the allegations are true, or if a similar situation were to pop up, would hate to see either corrective action for somthing that's morally/ethically wrong successfully redressed because it was legally ok.

 

[the 48th regulator]

Still need justification to administratively release somone.

If an individual doesn't violate the NDA because they're not subject to it, and doesn't violate any civil laws, then the individual hasn't really done anything "wrong" (Again, ethics and morality aside), so what's the justification for release? Or any sort of action by the chain of command?

Don't get me wrong, not trying to be argumentative, legitimately wondering here, how would an individuals chain of command go about dealing with somthing like this? It's well above me to deal with these sort of things, but I'm curious, based on a few situations I've seen in the past. If the allegations are true, or if a similar situation were to pop up, would hate to see either corrective action for somthing that's morally/ethically wrong successfully redressed because it was legally ok.

QR&Os: Volume I - Chapter 15
Release

5 (F) Unsuitable for Further Service.

Applies to the release of an officer or non-commissioned member who, either wholly or chiefly because of factors within his control, develops personal weakness or behaviour or has domestic or other personal problems that seriously impair his usefulness to or impose an excessive administrative burden on the Canadian Forces.


This pretty much says it all.  He may fall under these release conditions, if he is guilty of the alleged accusations.

dileas

tess

 

[chrisf]

Works for me.

I knew what a 5(f) release was, and I could give you a few examples of where it could/has been used, never paid attention to the actual word before. "behaviours" seems like it's the key word there.

 

[McG]

If an individual doesn't violate the NDA because they're not subject to it, and doesn't violate any civil laws, then the individual hasn't really done anything "wrong" (Again, ethics and morality aside), so what's the justification for release? Or any sort of action by the chain of command?

Some individuals have the mistaken belief that Class A reservists can do whatever they want and get away with it when not subject to the NDA.  That is not true - there is a vast range of policies and directives on conduct (mostly under the DAOD 5019 series) that, if violated even as a Class A while not subject to the NDA, can see a member release from the CF.  Alcohol misconduct, drugs, harasment prevention, sexual misconduct and many other policies all can apply to the Class A reservist while not subject to the NDA.

 

[jwtg]

Policy aside, if these allegations are true, then what is this guy doing in the CF?

Discrimination, oppression, genocide, subjugation, tyranny, racial intolerance...these are the kinds of things the CF fights against.  What kind of work does he think he's doing?

http://www.montrealgazette.com/news/Reservist+denies+racist+conduct/4461335/story.html

From above article...

The teenager said he's since taken down postings on his Facebook page, including quotes from Hitler and Mussolini.

He said he put them up because he sees them as "powerful," in the sense of being willing to stand up and fight for beliefs.

"I don't want to give the wrong impression," he said. "Just because an evil person did and said many evil things does not mean everything he said was wrong."

I'm not about to go posting quotes from Satan, the KKK, Nero, or any other tyrant or evil person/group in the history of the world.  That just gives credit to what they said or did.

Quoting them and calling them 'powerful' is exactly the kind of attitude/behaviour that allowed people like Hitler to rise to power in the first place.
Sure, innocent until proven guilty...but things aren't looking good.  It would seem that this guy doesn't stand for the same things the CF does. 

Go be a white supremacist, or be a soldier.  I don't believe the 2 can co-exist in one person.  One contradicts the other.

EDIT to add: I realize the above quote was included earlier in the thread- I just wanted to address this part.

 

[chrisf]

Some individuals have the mistaken belief that Class A reservists can do whatever they want and get away with it when not subject to the NDA.  That is not true - there is a vast range of policies and directives on conduct (mostly under the DAOD 5019 series) that, if violated even as a Class A while not subject to the NDA, can see a member release from the CF.  Alcohol misconduct, drugs, harasment prevention, sexual misconduct and many other policies all can apply to the Class A reservist while not subject to the NDA.

I don't think I've ever personally seen an example where somone was disciplined or released for somthing they've done contrary to the NDA, while not subject to the NDA.

I can think of multiple examples where a Class A reservists was disciplined or released either either for violating the NDA while subject to the NDA, or for things done while not subject to the NDA, the reprecussions of which carried over to a point where they were subject to the NDA.

Again, this just me being curious here, where the authority comes from, as while, without getting I can think of at least one or two examples where an incident may not have been handled in a way that made any sense to observers.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

Sig Op,

You are either accidentally or deliberately confusing adminstrative and disciplinary action.  I have seen plenty of Class A reservists released administratively from the CF for stuff that they did while they were not subject to the NDA. 

You are 26 years old.  I have 26 years in the CF.  I would suggest that your time horizon in the CF is not yet long enough to have seen everything.  Even I would not make that claim.

 

[nuclearzombies]

 

Go be a white supremacist, or be a soldier.  I don't believe the 2 can co-exist in one person.  One contradicts the other.

Agree 200%

Oddly, and this comes as a result of direct experience with the local Nazi wannabes, and participating in mainstream community efforts aimed at addressing the problem;

- not only do many of them consider themselves soldiers, they also believe they are currently "at war"
- their internal hierarchy is based on a quasi-military system, and encourage members to get military training (esp. as reservists)
- many of them believe that the CF is largely sympathetic to their cause(s)

Don't ask me by what cockamamie logic some of these individuals operate, but these white natonalist/Nazi/whatever types have some pretty screwy ideas. What bothers me is the level of violence rising: Since 2006, the "Aryan Guard", now calling themselves "Aryan Terror Brigade/Blood&Honor28" (sounds charming doesn't it?) have been convicted or implicated in more than 3 dozen assaults, 1 attempted IED attack, 3 home invasions resulting in injuries, among the usual bevy of tickets and minor charges for idiocy. We've also had some teenage pregnancies, and a couple bizarre love triangles that would make Charlie Sheen blush. It's odd, because much of it is a bunch of drunken jackassery and would almost be amusing in another context. Then the same people chuck a molotov through a window, narrowly missng four small kids. What the hell kind of yahoo has that kind of disregard!?!?!?

 

[chrisf]

Sig Op,

You are either accidentally or deliberately confusing adminstrative and disciplinary action.  I have seen plenty of Class A reservists released administratively from the CF for stuff that they did while they were not subject to the NDA. 

You are 26 years old.  I have 26 years in the CF.  I would suggest that your time horizon in the CF is not yet long enough to have seen everything.  Even I would not make that claim.

My mistake, I had no idea I had to achieve the status of "old fart" before I can wonder how rules and regulations I am from time to time subject to work.

I haven't seen everything, not by a long shot, just stating what I HAVE seen, with just shy of 10 years in the CF, I've seen my fair share of administrative releases of reservists. More to the point, I've seen several situations where I've wondered why somone WASN'T released, and I've always been curious why/why not the chain of command chose to make those decisions.

I was asking a question, a very legitimate question in this case. I was asking where the authority for the chain of command to deal with this sort of thing came from, when not subject to the NDA, and how an individuals chain of command would go about it.

Administrative action or disciplinary action, it all needs justification, or it's not going to surive a redress. Tess mostly answered my question, with the wording of a 5(f) release.

Now, on the subject of disciplinary vs administrative action, would there be/could there be any authority for disciplinary action by the individuals chain of command?