Replacing the Subs

[Colin Parkinson]

Navy asks for 12 hoping to get 9. TB/politicians looks at 4 subs and realize it does not work so will grudgingly offer 6. Bitter fight for the space between.

 

[KevinB]

Wasn't that the purpose behind Iqaluit? At least there it would be accessible without the need for a heavy ice breaker and closer to deep water

​

Both…

Iqaluit is Eastern and while relevant to the Northern Atlantic and Eastern Arctic it doesn’t do much for the Western side of Canada’s Arctic.

But yea a fair amount of work would need to get done on Tuk which would be good for the North anyway.

 

[KevinB]

Navy asks for 12 hoping to get 9. TB/politicians looks at 4 subs and realize it does not work so will grudgingly offer 6. Bitter fight for the space between.

You need 8 min, or don’t bother.

I’m of the opinion the money should be spent on other things.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

You need 8 min, or don’t bother.

I’m of the opinion the money should be spent on other things.

I will disagree, the subs, particularly if equipped with VLS (KS-III) will give Canada a much bigger effect than a surface only fleet. Plus the subs can be delivered before the bulk of the new surface fleet can be. So as the CFP self-divest, a new sub fleet will take on more importance.

 

[Stoker]

I will disagree, the subs, particularly if equipped with VLS (KS-III) will give Canada a much bigger effect than a surface only fleet. Plus the subs can be delivered before the bulk of the new surface fleet can be. So as the CFP self-divest, a new sub fleet will take on more importance.

Really won't take on any importance if we don't have the crews or do you suggest we use the crews from those divested CPF's?

 

[suffolkowner]

Really won't take on any importance if we don't have the crews or do you suggest we use the crews from those divested CPF's?

another reason 12 is unlikely

 

[Stoker]

another reason 12 is unlikely

I would say 4 would be likely.

 

[Furniture]

Really won't take on any importance if we don't have the crews or do you suggest we use the crews from those divested CPF's?

I suspect that the old boats are a big part of the recruiting problem. There are obviously other issues, but having very old boats isn't helping.

 

[OldSolduer]

Another part of the issue is today’s society. It’s very liberal and self centred and have absolutely zero thoughts about serving the nation. That goes for all three services and recruiting issues.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Really won't take on any importance if we don't have the crews or do you suggest we use the crews from those divested CPF's?

Likely you will get some crews from the CFP's. Having new and effective subs will help the navy recruit for them. Hopefully we will have turned the corner on recruiting by then and have the baseline crews. We will be short of experienced people , but that would eventually resolve itself. A navy with new subs, resupply vessels, CSC and AOP's would be a lot more attractive to people.

 

[Stoker]

Likely you will get some crews from the CFP's. Having new and effective subs will help the navy recruit for them. Hopefully we will have turned the corner on recruiting by then and have the baseline crews. We will be short of experienced people , but that would eventually resolve itself. A navy with new subs, resupply vessels, CSC and AOP's would be a lot more attractive to people.

I can safely say you won't get many volunteering for the submarines from the CPF's, you are deluding yourself if you think they will. Even a massive recruiting effort that there is no sign of you still only will get enough for 4 boats perhaps. In my opinion what we need to do is pay signing bonuses and recruit from other navies.

 

[Maxman1]

I suspect that the old boats are a big part of the recruiting problem. There are obviously other issues, but having very old boats isn't helping.

Indeed. And the Victoria class are infamous for unreliability and Chicoutimi catching fire on the trip to Canada when we bought them.

 

[dimsum]

Another part of the issue is today’s society. It’s very liberal and self centred and have absolutely zero thoughts about serving the nation. That goes for all three services and recruiting issues.

There’s being liberal, then there’s essentially going dark (in more ways than one) for months in today’s society.

Whatever your political affiliation, your family (spouse, kids, whatever) will not be super happy with you being gone with no communications until you arrive in whatever port, which is weeks (or more) away. That may have been fine before wifi and mobile phones, but I doubt that’s the case now.

 

[Nvlgzr]

Both…

Iqaluit is Eastern and while relevant to the Northern Atlantic and Eastern Arctic it doesn’t do much for the Western side of Canada’s Arctic.

But yea a fair amount of work would need to get done on Tuk which would be good for the North anyway.

View attachment 88361

Are the soundings on the chart fathoms or meters?

 

[KevinB]

I will disagree, the subs, particularly if equipped with VLS (KS-III) will give Canada a much bigger effect than a surface only fleet. Plus the subs can be delivered before the bulk of the new surface fleet can be. So as the CFP self-divest, a new sub fleet will take on more importance.

8 really only gives you 2 operational boats.

I would suggest that 12 SSN would be an actual capability for the RCN. For that gives 2 Pacific boats and one Arctic boat - and long endurance and speed.

12 Conventional boats would be okay - as then that offers 1 for Pacific, 1 each to Eastern and Western Arctic approaches, and the ability at times to surge a second boat to each AO to make up for the travel distances.

8 Conventional boats, well the distances mean that half the ‘patrol’ period of not more is taken up on the way to the AO.

Are the soundings on the chart fathoms or meters?

Good question. It was actually feet (I’m a small boat guy at the best of times) I reset the chart for fathoms.

 

[YZT580]

Are the soundings on the chart fathoms or meters?

Alaska is on the approaches to Tuk. The Americans can probably be relied upon to maintain a guard there. The east should be our bailiwick.

 

[Furniture]

Alaska is on the approaches to Tuk. The Americans can probably be relied upon to maintain a guard there. The east should be our bailiwick.

Alternatively, we should be good neighbour's and use our subs to free up USN SSNs to patrol farther afield.

 

[Kirkhill]

Alternatively, we should be good neighbour's and use our subs to free up USN SSNs to patrol farther afield.

12 SSKs

4 in Esquimalt cycling through the Bering to Tuk and Resolute

4 in Halifax cycling through Baffin to Iqaluit and Resolute

4 in either Halifax or Esquimalt for alliance surges.

Parking dead quiet in the narrows monitoring and controlling passage.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

8 really only gives you 2 operational boats.

I would suggest that 12 SSN would be an actual capability for the RCN. For that gives 2 Pacific boats and one Arctic boat - and long endurance and speed.

12 Conventional boats would be okay - as then that offers 1 for Pacific, 1 each to Eastern and Western Arctic approaches, and the ability at times to surge a second boat to each AO to make up for the travel distances.

8 Conventional boats, well the distances mean that half the ‘patrol’ period of not more is taken up on the way to the AO.

The Nuke boats are off the table. If we get subs the only question is which one and how many. If we signed a deal with SK tomorrow, they could likley deliver the first one in 2 years. Then have them alternate hull delivery to keep all their customers happy. By the time the first CSC hits the water we would have 2-3 new subs, 2 new AOR's and 6 AOP's. How many CFP's are still functioning, who knows?

 

[KevinB]

The Nuke boats are off the table. If we get subs the only question is which one and how many. If we signed a deal with SK tomorrow, they could likley deliver the first one in 2 years. Then have them alternate hull delivery to keep all their customers happy. By the time the first CSC hits the water we would have 2-3 new subs, 2 new AOR's and 6 AOP's. How many CFP's are still functioning, who knows?

But the issue is you won't sign a deal tomorrow (or well tomorrow never comes so...)

Canada should have had the first CSC in the water 10 years ago to make u for the 280's
Canada should have had the OAR's in the water 10 years ago to make up for the retirement of the Protecteurs
Canada should have CSC 6-16 going into the water now, .
Canada should have had a SSK program going in 2004 when the Chicoutimi fire made it clear the Vic's where a shit investment...

So I doubt Canada will get 12 SSK, and frankly I doubt you will get 8, and getting 8 or less than 8 is (due to Sub math, and Canadian territory) useless. But based on RCN acquisitions - as soon as the last Vic is laid up for good, you will have a decade after that minimum for a replacement of less than the original #. So probably 2...