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Replacing the Subs

I know the current favourite to replace the Vics are the Korean boats, but these would also do quite nicely, with their ultra modern systems:


I understand there are concerns about the Japanese lack of experience in exporting, but surely that's a problem that can be solved. They seem to have the industrial capability.
 
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I know the current favourite to replace the Vics are the Korean boats, but these would also do quite nicely, with their ultra modern systems:


I understand there are concerns about the Japanese lack of experience in exporting, but surely that's a problem that can be solved. They seem to have the industrial capability.
One of the most important concerns regarding the Canadian Patrol Submarine Program is going to be the ability of the chosen partner to have everything move ahead relatively smoothly. There is also a need for this partner to liaison with Canadian industry in order to set up the required infrastructure, resources and supply lines in order for us to maintain, refit and repair these boats domestically on both coasts. Japan has a very competitive submarine from all that I have heard and Canada is definitely interested however, Japanese institutional and industrial experience with military export programs are effectively nil. This is something we have to seriously take into consideration as it could cause countless issues for Canada in a program where we are already behind and cannot afford setbacks.
 
Serious question about the VIC’s. Is there any way that we can get them out and doing the business, reliably, to take some of the strain off the CPF fleet? I know they don’t fill the same roles, but in instances where they might fit?
 
The world of submarines is one where you lose the operating knowledge base incredibly fast. If you get out of the business, even for only a few years, it is extremely difficult and lengthy to rebuild it from scratch.

Far more economical and safe, in the long run, to keep refitting and using the ones we have to keep training the submariners we have and the up and coming ones, even if just as a bridge into the next generation of submarines.
 
The world of submarines is one where you lose the operating knowledge base incredibly fast. If you get out of the business, even for only a few years, it is extremely difficult and lengthy to rebuild it from scratch.

Far more economical and safe, in the long run, to keep refitting and using the ones we have to keep training the submariners we have and the up and coming ones, even if just as a bridge into the next generation of submarines.
I agree, but I’m wondering if it’s worthwhile to only concentrate on, say, the two that are in the best shape in order to keep the costs down somewhat. Also, is it possible to embed RCN submariners in other Allied navies in order to keep those skills sharp, if our boats aren’t really available all that often?
 
I agree, but I’m wondering if it’s worthwhile to only concentrate on, say, the two that are in the best shape in order to keep the costs down somewhat.

In reality, that could be what we are doing, but you'll never hear it open source. What the subs are doing, and how they do it is not something that is talked about in an unclass environment.
 
In reality, that could be what we are doing, but you'll never hear it open source. What the subs are doing, and how they do it is not something that is talked about in an unclass environment.
Fair point. It does make it hard for civvies or those not in the know to connect with the sub service, unfortunately, but loose lips and all…
 
Since we haven't actually purchased any new submarines yet, now is probably the best time to ask if we SHOULD buy new submarines.

I'm certainly not going to argue against the usefulness of submarines or against the quantity being proposed (anything less than 12 realistically doesn't really give you a big enough deployable fleet to have a significant military impact). But just like nobody will argue against the usefulness of aircraft carriers you can argue whether they are right for the RCN.

My take on submarines for Canada is based on the following assumptions/opinions:
  • in a war neither the Russian or Chinese surface fleets will risk approaching the North American coastline where they would come in range of US aviation assets.
  • any Russian/Chinese subs that approach our coasts are likely to be longer endurance nuclear boats rather than conventional subs.
  • given our plan to purchase MOTS conventional subs our boats will not be used for extended under ice operations.
  • since we are only likely to have up to four boats available at any given time and with the limited underwater range/speed of conventional subs (relative to nuclear subs) we are more likely to keep our sub fleet deployed on our side of the Atlantic/Pacific in a defensive role rather then deploying to the far side of the oceans in an offensive role.
Of course none of the above is written in stone. We could face enemy conventional subs in our own backyard or we could end up forward deploying a boat or two to the Far East or Norwegian Sea but I'd argue that these are more likely to be the exceptions rather than the rule.

So if the primary role of our subs would be to counter enemy submarines on our side of the oceans and we we will likely only have two available at any given time on each coast to cover our vast maritime domain and the nuclear boats we are facing are faster, have greater endurance and can go under ice where we can't follow, then do conventional submarines give us the best bang for our buck?

I'm again going to make an assumption that nuclear subs (which would counter many of the above issues) are off the table for political, technical and economic reasons. So the question then becomes what OTHER ASW capabilities could we purchase for the same money that we'd be putting into a fleet of 12 x conventional submarines? Additional surface combatants? More MPA's? Uncrewed systems? Would a mix of these alternate systems actually provide us greater coverage than the submarine fleet?

Again, I'll fully acknowledge the unique capabilities that submarines bring to the table, but in terms of opportunity cost are the benefits of a submarine fleet greater than the sum of the other capabilities we could buy for the RCN for the same cost?
 
The 23rd boat of the VA class was commissioned this month, the New Jersey, the 24th - 26th (Iowa, MA, and Idaho) are launched, conducting pre commissioning trials.

Can’t help thinking of New Jersey and Iowa as BBs.

My take on submarines for Canada is based on the following assumptions/opinions:
  • in a war neither the Russian or Chinese surface fleets will risk approaching the North American coastline where they would come in range of US aviation assets.

No reasons why disruptive freedom of navigation in (at least open uncontested) international waters couldn’t/wouldn’t be a thing, if nothing other than to goad and confuse…
 
No reasons why disruptive freedom of navigation in (at least open uncontested) international waters couldn’t/wouldn’t be a thing, if nothing other than to goad and confuse…
No argument from me...as I said certain enemy actions are unlikely not impossible. However, if the Russians/Chinese made the decision to conduct a disruptive FON passage near North America it means that they've already factored in the fact that US nuclear subs will certainly be in the area. The presence of two additional Canadian conventional submarines is highly unlikely to suddenly change their risk assessment and deter.
 
CAST enters stumbles around the chat.



Curious little nugget from @Blackadder1916 's intervention

When Trudeau was shopping for Halifaxes and Hornets he was looking favourably at 17 SSKs for the arctic on the grounds that they would be cheaper than the Halifaxes.

The military didn't want to take the focus off the German Border.
 
my answer to the NWP is to just park a ship there or sink one. Whats the depth and width at it shallowest or narrowest?
 
Since we haven't actually purchased any new submarines yet, now is probably the best time to ask if we SHOULD buy new submarines.

I'm certainly not going to argue against the usefulness of submarines or against the quantity being proposed (anything less than 12 realistically doesn't really give you a big enough deployable fleet to have a significant military impact). But just like nobody will argue against the usefulness of aircraft carriers you can argue whether they are right for the RCN.

My take on submarines for Canada is based on the following assumptions/opinions:
  • in a war neither the Russian or Chinese surface fleets will risk approaching the North American coastline where they would come in range of US aviation assets.
  • any Russian/Chinese subs that approach our coasts are likely to be longer endurance nuclear boats rather than conventional subs.
  • given our plan to purchase MOTS conventional subs our boats will not be used for extended under ice operations.
  • since we are only likely to have up to four boats available at any given time and with the limited underwater range/speed of conventional subs (relative to nuclear subs) we are more likely to keep our sub fleet deployed on our side of the Atlantic/Pacific in a defensive role rather then deploying to the far side of the oceans in an offensive role.
Of course none of the above is written in stone. We could face enemy conventional subs in our own backyard or we could end up forward deploying a boat or two to the Far East or Norwegian Sea but I'd argue that these are more likely to be the exceptions rather than the rule.

So if the primary role of our subs would be to counter enemy submarines on our side of the oceans and we we will likely only have two available at any given time on each coast to cover our vast maritime domain and the nuclear boats we are facing are faster, have greater endurance and can go under ice where we can't follow, then do conventional submarines give us the best bang for our buck?

I'm again going to make an assumption that nuclear subs (which would counter many of the above issues) are off the table for political, technical and economic reasons. So the question then becomes what OTHER ASW capabilities could we purchase for the same money that we'd be putting into a fleet of 12 x conventional submarines? Additional surface combatants? More MPA's? Uncrewed systems? Would a mix of these alternate systems actually provide us greater coverage than the submarine fleet?

Again, I'll fully acknowledge the unique capabilities that submarines bring to the table, but in terms of opportunity cost are the benefits of a submarine fleet greater than the sum of the other capabilities we could buy for the RCN for the same cost?
Watch the videos I posted. Answers all the questions.

In particular Adm(R) Norman dismisses nuke boats for arctic ocean patrols as he states correctly (paraphrased) "Our closest allies are already there, we can help them best by monitoring the approaches to the arctic"
 
One of the biggest advantages of submarines of any kind of their status as the oceans apex predators and the deterrence effect that they provide. These platforms can effectively be anywhere at home or abroad with the ability to utilize torpedoes, anti-ship missiles, cruise missiles and mines to hold a variety of targets at risk. This is doubly so for surveillance and supporting special forces if you have the proper equipment. Surface ships and aircraft cannot provide the unseen killing power and surveillance ability of submarines.
 
I agree with Underway.

Also, for employment of subs, listen carefully to what Adm. Davidson says. Bob is the man when it comes to submarines in Canada.

Remember, diesel electric submarines (or AIP ones) are barrier vessels. There are plenty of choke point our potential enemies must pass through to get to or from the Arctic. Similarly, there are tons of coke points around the China seas. Watching over some of those is a positive and substantial contribution to any sea campaign.
 
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