Reconstitution

[Halifax Tar]

Then go buy them! We’re talking $20 a year….

Weren't you pilots so whiney about pay that you actually got your own pay scale ?

 

[Cdn_Merchant_Navy Guy]

Jordan Peterson Podcast - August 1 2024 (recorded July 8th)​

468. Canada Can’t Defend Itself | J.O. Michel Maisonneuve, Barbara Maisonneuve, and Mark Norman​

Dr. Jordan Peterson sits down with J.O. Michel Maisonneuve, Barbara Anne Maisonneuve, and Mark Norman. They discuss the implementation of DEI policy in the Canadian Armed Forces, the move away from meritocracy, the overreaction to sexual misconduct — while acknowledging the existing problems — and the country's loss of credibility on the world stage.​

Would like to read the opinions from the community on Dr. Peterson's recent podcast.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Jordan Peterson Podcast - August 1 2024 (recorded July 8th)​

468. Canada Can’t Defend Itself | J.O. Michel Maisonneuve, Barbara Maisonneuve, and Mark Norman​

Dr. Jordan Peterson sits down with J.O. Michel Maisonneuve, Barbara Anne Maisonneuve, and Mark Norman. They discuss the implementation of DEI policy in the Canadian Armed Forces, the move away from meritocracy, the overreaction to sexual misconduct — while acknowledging the existing problems — and the country's loss of credibility on the world stage.​

Would like to read the opinions from the community on Dr. Peterson's recent podcast.

I used to listen to him but, lately, he's been falling into the right wing loonie category in a Victor Davis Hanson kind of way.

Yeah, we suck at some stuff, but when push comes to shove Canada can still shove pretty hard IMHO

 

[Brad Sallows]

Sure and we could just go to the town clinic instead of having a mir.

You might face long waits there, too, or a sign on the door that says they're already fully booked for the day.

Not every problem people are born with is mitigated at public expense.

 

[ballz]

So exactly which of the supplemental healthcare benefits is actually getting cut? And who is cutting it, exactly?

I didn't use it much for small OTC drugs, but one thing I used it for was vaccines. Unbeknownst to many (including, unfortunately, the CAF medical community), you could get a lot of valuable vaccines for free. I got the rabies vaccine for free which is like $750, because of my travel habits. That is, it wasn't "hey, you're deploying to "x" and need this vaccine to DAG green," it was something I sought out and got voluntarily and it was covered by the supplemental healthcare benefits.

Of course, the MIR in Edmonton told me that I couldn't get it and that it wasn't covered, but that was fake news. Unfortunately, the medical units don't seem to understand the difference between their operational mandate/funding and the supplemental healthcare benefits. That kind of incompetence was a bigger blade than ibuprofen for me, but I'd also be annoyed to have the small OTC stuff cut meanwhile having to push out $600k-700k/year across 8 units to blow on year-end spending which they can't use to buy anything super useful because it's being pushed down after the October PSPC deadline for anything over $25k.

 

[markppcli]

You might face long waits there, too, or a sign on the door that says they're already fully booked for the day.

Not every problem people are born with is mitigated at public expense.

My point was more where do we stop when we start cutting benefits vs a debate on healthcare

 

[Edward Campbell]

Helmets on:

Please don't forget that in the 1960s one of the key problems that newly minted defence minister Paul Hellyer was trying to solve was remuneration.The CF was underpaid, study after study had said so and there had been many proposals for pay reform but government after government, Conservative and Liberal, had dithered and done nothing. One of Mr Hellyer's many 'reforms' was to establish a new CF pay and allowance model based on the Canadian civil service by using "benchmarks." I can't remember the details except that one of the "benchmarks" was a civil service journeyman draughtsman and an Army, (RCE) corporal draughtsman.

Anyway we got a pay raise built around a massive change in career progression: the "Hellyer captain" and the "Hellyer corporal" emerged when it was decided hat "progression to those (quite well paid) ranks would be nearly automatic after a relatively minimal period of service and, for NCMs, a course or OJT.

In about 1970s something else happened: tax reform. I was told by a source I still consider to be 100% reliable that the finance minister of the day, a very smart fellow named Edgar Benson, went back and forth with his officials when preparing the budget speech because he believed, based on his wartime service, as a sergeant in the artillery, that the military did not pay any income tax. The fact was that we did pay taxes, just like everyone else, but many, including almost all single officers and soldiers, did not fill in any forms. For many of us our tax was calculated and deducted and that was that. If you had, say, investments that incurred capital gains and losses you would need to fill in income tax forms like other Canadians ... anyway, I recall that in the (I think 1970) budget speech Mr Benson said words to the effect that "members of the armed forces will pay taxes like everyone else." It was all that he and his officials could agree. Mr Benson and millions of other Canadians believed that we did not pay taxes at all!

Helmets off ...

 

[Halifax Tar]

Helmets on:

Please don't forget that in the 1960s one of the key problems that newly minted defence minister Paul Hellyer was trying to solve was remuneration.The CF was underpaid, study after study had said so and there had been many proposals for pay reform but government after government, Conservative and Liberal, had dithered and done nothing. One of Mr Hellyer's many 'reforms' was to establish a new CF pay and allowance model based on the Canadian civil service by using "benchmarks." I can't remember the details except that one of the "benchmarks" was a civil service journeyman draughtsman and an Army, (RCE) corporal draughtsman.

Anyway we got a pay raise built around a massive change in career progression: the "Hellyer captain" and the "Hellyer corporal" emerged when it was decided hat "progression to those (quite well paid) ranks would be nearly automatic after a relatively minimal period of service and, for NCMs, a course or OJT.

In about 1970s something else happened: tax reform. I was told by a source I still consider to be 100% reliable that the finance minister of the day, a very smart fellow named Edgar Benson, went back and forth with his officials when preparing the budget speech because he believed, based on his wartime service, as a sergeant in the artillery, that the military did not pay any income tax. The fact was that we did pay taxes, just like everyone else, but many, including almost all single officers and soldiers, did not fill in any forms. For many of us our tax was calculated and deducted and that was that. If you had, say, investments that incurred capital gains and losses you would need to fill in income tax forms like other Canadians ... anyway, I recall that in the (I think 1970) budget speech Mr Benson said words to the effect that "members of the armed forces will pay taxes like everyone else." It was all that he and his officials could agree. Mr Benson and millions of other Canadians believed that we did not pay taxes at all!

Helmets off ...

That's still a thing. My in laws didn't know I paid taxes until recently, when it came up in conversation.

 

[SupersonicMax]

Go buy your t shirts and cap badges, they’re cheap too…

I already buy my cap badges, my unit patches, unit stuff (visor covers, t-shirts, etc). That’s okay. US Military pays for their uniform beyond initial issue.

99.99% of the Canadian population pay for their OTC meds. They also largely have a co-pay for prescription medication. This is a battle that we most definitely won’t win in the public perception world.

 

[daftandbarmy]

I already buy my cap badges, my unit patches, unit stuff (visor covers, t-shirts, etc). That’s okay. US Military pays for their uniform beyond initial issue.

99.99% of the Canadian population pay for their OTC meds. They also largely have a co-pay for prescription medication. This is a battle that we most definitely won’t win in the public perception world.

Like the 'I'll show up to work an hour late because I'm doing PT", or ...

"I'll take a half day off on Friday because I work so hard during the week" thing?

 

[markppcli]

I already buy my cap badges, my unit patches, unit stuff (visor covers, t-shirts, etc). That’s okay. US Military pays for their uniform beyond initial issue.

99.99% of the Canadian population pay for their OTC meds. They also largely have a co-pay for prescription medication. This is a battle that we most definitely won’t win in the public perception world.

You buy your blue uniform t shirts? Your cap badge is available at clothing just saying.

 

[Baz]

You buy your blue uniform t shirts? Your cap badge is available at clothing just saying.

Yeah, but that's the plain Jane version


That doesn't say cool like the purchased version (only $19.99 at Canex).

And why wear a plain blue T-Shirt when you be stylin' this (only $29.99 for 3 at the CANEX!)


I still have stacks of issued blue T-Shirts (they almost insisted I take them everytime something I needed wore out) and socks... oh, so many socks!

 

[Navy_Pete]

I used to listen to him but, lately, he's been falling into the right wing loonie category in a Victor Davis Hanson kind of way.

Yeah, we suck at some stuff, but when push comes to shove Canada can still shove pretty hard IMHO

I'm not sure what DEI policy they are talking about anyway; really has nothing to do with promotion.

"Meritocracy" was always a bit suspect anyway, as people with fairy godfathers got direct boosts, as well as indirect boost like high profile postings that weigh heavily into promotion considerations. At least with some of the official selection processes for streamers it's a bit more transparent.

It gets it right a lot of the times, it takes some hard misses other times, but we've never been a pure meritocracy.

 

[dapaterson]

The CAF could fund the CSC complete by a small reduction in the wool sock entitlement.

 

[Remius]

I used to listen to him but, lately, he's been falling into the right wing loonie category in a Victor Davis Hanson kind of way.

Yeah, we suck at some stuff, but when push comes to shove Canada can still shove pretty hard IMHO

He’s definitely gone weird.

When he gets confronted with something he uses word salads and explains that things are hard to define so without definition it’s hard to explain etc.

But on men and women he never hesitates to define.

He deflects a lot. Some of his debating opponents have called him out more than once on that sort of thing.

 

[CountDC]

Sure, someone will just get an appointment to get OTC medication or go to sick parade. That's totally not a complete waste of everyone's time, and an efficient use of very limited medical resources.

OTC allergy meds is about 30-40 for a month worse, and depending where you are at, is usually about 3 months worth for allergy season. WIth that $100 they save they can print some recruitment posters I guess.

Then there are some of us that don't get a break from it, have to take it every day all year. Environmental allergies sometimes just don't go away. Unfortunately I can not get what works best through the pharmacy so either take the lesser from there or buy my own (I picked by my own)..

Or they could just buy them for $20? If you need more than one bottle a year, you likely have issues that require medical attention or at least documenting.

For allergy meds, that should definitely be followed up by a doctor…

Then go buy them! We’re talking $20 a year….

I have numerous that the treatment is - take painkillers when needed. Didn't need a doctor to tell me that, my mother had already taught me and I was doing it. Only reason to bring it up with the doc was to have a record for VAC and even then was offered aspirin.

 

[Navy_Pete]

Then there are some of us that don't get a break from it, have to take it every day all year. Environmental allergies sometimes just don't go away. Unfortunately I can not get what works best through the pharmacy so either take the lesser from there or buy my own (I picked by my own)..

That sucks, sorry to hear that. I have mostly seasonal allergies but things like cats, dogs and dust can suck sometimes as well.

We get nickle and dimed plenty though, and I think the arguement of 'what would the Canadian public think is BS. We have a lot of things to deal with the public doesn't so losing minor benefits because Canadians don't have them is stupid. All that is part of the benefits package so things like upping mandatory rations costs when you are on course and have to live in, cutting OTC drug access etc all is part of the overall reductions in compensations package.

 

[OldSolduer]

99.9% of the Canadian population doesn't deploy to Latvia, or other areas to possibly lay it all on the line in the service of their country. This gentleman has it right.

We get nickle and dimed plenty though, and I think the arguement of 'what would the Canadian public think is BS. We have a lot of things to deal with the public doesn't so losing minor benefits because Canadians don't have them is stupid. All that is part of the benefits package so things like upping mandatory rations costs when you are on course and have to live in, cutting OTC drug access etc all is part of the overall reductions in compensations package.

 

[Blackadder1916]

Weren't you pilots so whiney about pay that you actually got your own pay scale ?

While I can't dispute the impression that pilots are whiney, they've always (if we measure 'always' as since the 1950s) had their own pay scale.

Well hopefully cutting over the counter medication benefits will help the budget more than it erodes moral.

So exactly which of the supplemental healthcare benefits is actually getting cut? And who is cutting it, exactly?

Also the questions that interest me.

For those of us who no longer get their med care from the military, was there an announcement that "OTC meds" are no longer provided? Is this change in policy affecting only supplies provided from CF med facilities or does it also mean that OTC items obtained from civilian pharmacies will no longer be covered through Medavie Blue Cross? Or has the requirement to have these items "prescribed" by an authorized health provider (even a low level one) been reinstituted?

Following the posts about this issue, I'm confused about what the change actually means. Some seem to suggest that members will now be responsible for providing their own OTC meds when clinically required (I find that highly unlikely), others that they have to see a "doctor" to get a prescription, but so far, no one has referenced any "official" policy announcement.

I haven't been able to find (via google) any mention of a policy change. But that doesn't surprise me since it's damn near impossible to access CF policy documents on open sources. Conversely, I've found tons of information (from national level policy to local implementation guidelines for individual MEDFACs) about the similar US Military/Tricare programs.

Having dabbled in this realm back when onions tied to our belts was a preventive medicine procedure and before "CF Spectrum of Care" and "supplemental healthcare benefits" were considered part of a compensation package (I'm not sure that it is even considered a part of CF compensation today), I am not surprised by misunderstandings about what can and cannot be (or was. or was not, or no longer is) provided by CF health services. Some of it may be budgetary, some of it may be equality (e.g., not provided in similar federal programs - comparison of compensation benefits) and some of it may be regulatory (health policies, internal and external, about what can or cannot be provided by various provider levels and maintenance of medical records).

Just to throw some fuel on the fire, a few things that I found that touch on the general subject of OTC meds for CF members.

A previous (brief) discussion about the issue.
Problem with Base Pharmacy/Pharmacist

The CF Spectrum of Care is easily found online along with the searchable drug benefit list. (and yes @ballz, rabies vaccine - two types - are on the list)

But for those whose focus on OTC meds is primarily on analgesics and cold remedies, there is a wider range of what is included.

https://cafdbl-ldmfac.forces.gc.ca/en/docs/dbl-otc-quick-reference-guide.pdf

And for discussion sake, there is a scientific (as well as financial/administrative) basis to what is included on the Drug Benefit List. (This is a 2014 presentation at a symposium)
Criteria for Listing Non-Prescription Medications on CF Drug Benefit List

And what is currently on Medavie Blue Cross

https://pub.medavie.bluecross.ca/pub/0001/PublicDocuments/FAP-021%20POC%2010.pdf

Program of Choice (POC) 10, Prescription Drugs, includes drug products and other pharmaceuticals such as medical supplies, over-the-counter and general products.
. . .
PRESCRIPTION REQUIREMENTS VAC, CAF and RCMP require a prescription from a licensed physician, dentist or optometrist or other authorized prescriber (licensed to do so by the province/territory) for all drug products and other pharmaceuticals under this program regardless of the provincial or federal rules.

And a 2005 study

https://www.researchgate.net/publication/7869166_Evaluation_of_Pharmacist-Managed_Nonprescription_Drug_Benefit_for_Canadian_Military_Personnel

Abstract
To determine whether (1) desirable health outcomes (e.g., symptom resolution) would be achieved with a new national drug-management program implemented by the Canadian Forces (CF); (2) CF members would be satisfied with the services offered by the civilian pharmacists; and (3) cost implications of the new program would be favorable. Open, nonrandomized, longitudinal program evaluation and cost analysis study. Canada. 583 CF members who did not have access to a military pharmacy in selected geographic areas of Canada and 65 community pharmacy providers. A new drug-management program, which allowed members to obtain nonprescription medications from civilian pharmacies without first obtaining a prescription from a physician at no additional cost, was evaluated in a pilot study. A cost-analysis model conducted from the CF Health Services and Department of National Defense perspectives and telephone survey assessing health outcomes and members' satisfaction with the program. Based on 563 transactions that occurred during the pilot study period, 96% of the CF members reported being very to somewhat satisfied with the service received under the new drug-management program, and a majority stated that desirable health outcomes were achieved. The one area of concern cited about the new program was the low percentage of members who recalled being instructed by civilian pharmacists to see a physician if their symptoms did not abate. The cost analysis showed the new program was more economical than previous physician-based system. The provision of nonprescription medications by civilian pharmacists to members who had no access to a base pharmacy was both cost-efficient and associated with a high level of satisfaction. Future evaluations should include prospective monitoring of drug use patterns as well as assessments of the quality of care.

 

[Furniture]

We get nickle and dimed plenty though, and I think the arguement of 'what would the Canadian public think is BS. We have a lot of things to deal with the public doesn't so losing minor benefits because Canadians don't have them is stupid. All that is part of the benefits package so things like upping mandatory rations costs when you are on course and have to live in, cutting OTC drug access etc all is part of the overall reductions in compensations package.

Reductions at a time when we are already hurting for people, and asking people to do more with even less than the previous "less"...