Paid off vs Decommissioning split -HMCS Fraser looking for interested volunteers

[tabernac]

IIRC, HMC Ships are paid off, not decommisioned.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

IIRC, HMC Ships are paid off, not decommissioned.

I have never been to a paid off ceremony but I have been to 2 decommissioning ceremonies of 2 of our ships.

 

[drunknsubmrnr]

I'm pretty sure OJ was paid off, not decomissioned. At least, she had a "paying off pennant", not a "decomissioning flag".

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Both ships had paying off pennants as well, it was a decommissioning ceremony that I attended.

 

[Donaill]

 My spelling mistake, sorry.

As far as being payed off or decommisioned, I have heard many tell me that the Fraser is decommisioned and therefore not legally allowed to fly the ensign. Semantics? As quoted from a navy.dnd.ca site "Main Propulsion Officer of HMCS PROVIDER, now decommissioned." I am not trying to start something here but if I am using the incorrect term for taking an HMCS ship out of service than I would like to know. However, as it appears on several navy sites than I am not so sure if I am correct or not.

 As I said, I am still looking for people that might be interested in going to help. I was hoping to find at least 10 people to go. The Fraser still flies the Canadian flag and is still in full view by the public. I think it is a shame that she is just sitting there and covered in so much rust. I know that there are those that would say that she has hd her time and it is best to just let her sit and she is no longer our (the navy's) concern.  She is the last DDH St. Laurent class ship and is still being used as a museum piece and may still end up being sunk as a reef, as it is owned by the artificial reef society.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Talk aroound the Ops Room, apparently both terms are accepted. Go figure.

 

[geo]

Ummm... IIRC a ship can be decommissioned but be kept mothballed
The Upholder class of submarines would be a prime example...... (in the US they have the National defence reserve fleet )

Once a ship has been paid off... she's going for Rasors blades & Toyotas

 

[Neill McKay]

Talk aroound the Ops Room, apparently both terms are accepted. Go figure.

I think it's in the same category as serving "in" or "on" a ship, with naval culture purists in one camp thundering "by God it's 'paid off!'" and moderate people less bothered by details on the other camp equally accepting of either one.  (Am in the former category but have given up on this one as being unwinnable!)

 

[drunknsubmrnr]

Once a ship has been paid off... she's going for Rasors blades & Toyotas

No, the origin of the term is from paying the crew at the end of a commission. After the crew were "paid off" the ship went into "ordinary" (ie mothballs) and her officers placed on half-pay unless they found another ship. On being brought back from ordinary, the ship was "recommissioned". So "paying off" and "decomissioning" are really the same thing.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

I think it's in the same category as serving "in" or "on" a ship, with naval culture purists in one camp thundering "by God it's 'paid off!'" and moderate people less bothered by details on the other camp equally accepting of either one.  (Am in the former category but have given up on this one as being unwinnable!)

Agreed.

 

[geo]

works for me Drunknsubmariner

then again, I try to avoid water as much as possible - fish fornicate in water after all

 

[armyvern]

I'm pretty sure OJ was paid off, not decomissioned. At least, she had a "paying off pennant", not a "decomissioning flag".

Well according to forces.gc.ca (that'd be the official CF site I think) ...

HMCS ships are "decommissioned" (see term used at para 3 of link)

Attachment included below details the "The CF Ship Decommissioning Process".

Attached here is the link to the CFAO regarding the "paying off" of CF assets. It seems to me that the Ship itself is "decommissioned" (read Unit "disbanded" in the CFAO). After it is decommissioned it is then "payed off" in that the asset then moves from the Old Man to the CDS for disposal purposes.

CFAO 27-9 DISPOSAL OF NON-PUBLIC PROPERTY

Ergo, the "paying off" of the ship is it's handover to the disposal process.

It's actual "retirement from service" -- is it's decommissioning.

 

[Neill McKay]

Well according to forces.gc.ca (that'd be the official CF site I think) ...

HMCS ships are "decommissioned" (see term used at para 3 of link)

Press releases and backgrounders, official as they may be, are not a convincing source for something like this.  Being intended for a general audience (including the public) they tend to use terminology more likely to be understood by the public.  "Decommission" has a broader civilian use than the specific naval one.  (e.g. we talk about decommissioning a factory to mean taking it out of service, even though it was never "commissioned" in the symbolic sense of a ship becoming one of Her Majesty's and thereafter having its quarterdeck saluted, etc.)

Attachment included below details the "The CF Ship Decommissioning Process".

Attached here is the link to the CFAO regarding the "paying off" of CF assets. It seems to me that the Ship itself is "decommissioned" (read Unit "disbanded" in the CFAO). After it is decommissioned it is then "payed off" in that the asset then moves from the Old Man to the CDS for disposal purposes.

CFAO 27-9 DISPOSAL OF NON-PUBLIC PROPERTY

What you're saying seems to fit with what Geo said above, but I don't see that in the attachment.  What paragraph are you looking at?

 

[Harris]

Can we stay on topic and take the decommission vs paid off discussion to another thread?  The orginal poster is looking for volunteers to help him restore a ship.

Army.ca staff.

 

[armyvern]

Press releases and backgrounders, official as they may be, are not a convincing source for something like this.  Being intended for a general audience (including the public) they tend to use terminology more likely to be understood by the public.  "Decommission" has a broader civilian use than the specific naval one.  (e.g. we talk about decommissioning a factory to mean taking it out of service, even though it was never "commissioned" in the symbolic sense of a ship becoming one of Her Majesty's and thereafter having its quarterdeck saluted, etc.)

What you're saying seems to fit with what Geo said above, but I don't see that in the attachment.  What paragraph are you looking at?

Start at para 3 (as I gave) and read downwards from there. "Paying off" -- disposal process of Crown assets; I think it's pretty clear that it is the "disposal" process that is the "paying off".

The "disbandment" (or "decommissioning) is stated at para 3 wrt to HMC Ships.

 

[drunknsubmrnr]

Posted in the wrong topic. D'oh!

 

[WrenchBender]

Historical usage(RN era of Wooden Ships and Iron Men)- a ship was said to be 'Paid off' at the end of a deployment (could be up to 2 years or more ship), the crew where released (paid) and the ship would be refitted or placed into 'Ordinary' (the Reserve). When Decomssioned the ship was removed from the 'Admiralty List'.

Now in modern times we seem to have developed the habit of interchanging the terms.

WrenchBender

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Historical usage(RN era of Wooden Ships and Iron Men)- a ship was said to be 'Paid off' at the end of a deployment (could be up to 2 years or more ship), the crew where released (paid) and the ship would be refitted or placed into 'Ordinary' (the Reserve). When Decomssioned the ship was removed from the 'Admiralty List'.

Now in modern times we seem to have developed the habit of interchanging the terms.

WrenchBender

Psssst see reply#8

 

[WrenchBender]

Psssst see reply#8

Damn lost it in translation, that will teach me to skim the threads.......

WrenchBender

 

[Neill McKay]

Start at para 3 (as I gave) and read downwards from there. "Paying off" -- disposal process of Crown assets; I think it's pretty clear that it is the "disposal" process that is the "paying off".

The "disbandment" (or "decommissioning) is stated at para 3 wrt to HMC Ships.

"Paying off" is there and is included in the definition of "disbandment", but I don't see the word "decommission" anywhere in that order.