National ID Cards

[Brad Sallows]

>And I would love to see you cite an example of an abuse of authority by our Government in the sense of a misuse of information.

The first one to come to mind offhand involves a misuse of information by pharmacists receiving government paycheques.  If you don't think government employees never have and never will misuse their authority and the information to which they have access, you are naive beyond rational adult expectation.

 

[TCBF]

For the above reasons mentioned by others, I don't see this as much of a big brother exercise as a few other national issues we have.  I just don't see how it will be a great improvement until the technology improves.

But, assuming Zipperhead_cop is right, and it would work, I would say wether it uses biometrics or DNA, it must be linked to a national data bank, so we can't have people with five or six of these, like we have for SIN cards and so on.

So: The first machines go to the borders:

1. You don't enter the country unless we bio you and card you first. 

2. The card must be presented to access all health care. 

3. The card must be presented and swiped upon leaving the country.

4. The card must be presented and swiped to vote.

5. The card must be presented and swiped to access social services.

6. The card cannot be used for commercial purposes.

7.  Card numbers and SIN card numbers cannot be stored by non- auth agencies.

8.  Possesion of unauth card info - including numbers - punishable by 30 years in prison.

9.  You can change your name, but you will keep your number.

10. Citizenship: ALL of them, will be on the card.

Any other ideas?

Tom

 

[Fishbone Jones]

For all the conspiracy theorists:Just a little sidebar, let's not get off the original subject.

http://www.metacafe.com/watch/76081/conspiracy_documentary/


Tom,

I like your ideas!

 

[redleafjumper]

For most of us,of all points of view, a review of this site might be helpful when crafting our arguments:

http://www.nizkor.org/features/fallacies/

 

[TCBF]

People still look at me funny when i say "All Parakeets are birds, but not all birds are parakeets."

Tom

 

[zipperhead_cop]

It has been brough to my attention that I am coming off too strong.  So, since I was offensive in a public way, I am apologizing in a public way. 
National security is a passionate subject for me.  My job gives me a unique perspective on just how easy our system is to manipulate and get away with, literally, murder.  I have friends in national intelligence positions, and am privy to a lot of info that Joe citizen is not.  Have no doubts in your minds:  the only reason there has not been a terrorist attack in Canada is lack of desire on the part of terrorists.  They live here, so there is a "don't shite in your own back yard" way of thinking.  Drivers licences, health cards, passports are all painfully easy to counterfeit.  On top of that, we don't even hold people claiming refugee status to ensure who they are.  We just give them a bunch of money and make them promise to come back in a few weeks. 
You're mad at the Fed for not supporting health care enough?  How about the millions that is spent on illegal immigrants or Americans sneaking over to get our free medical treatments? 
Welfare bug you?  There are people who maintain four identities that travel from Hamilton to Montreal, to four different addresses collecting welfare and other social benefits because no one knows who they are.  Oh, those addresses:  about thirty people residing in a two bedroom apartment.  Doesn't get crowded because no one lives there. 
Thought you had a pay check?  Card skims are everywhere, and while in the long run you MAY get your money back, what are the odds that your account gets cleaned out the day you are going on vacation.
And these are just the examples that are such common knowledge that I can openly talk about them.

Yes, Brad, I am a police officer and have pledged my life to protect my little slice of Canada every time I go out.  Every car I stop, every door I go through, I put my ass on the line for guys like you, so you can sit back and say "I can't trust anybody but me".  Well, I have every belief that you are a completely trustworthy guy and conduct yourself credibly and with distinction in your community.  Unfortunately, there are a great many people who don't, and they kind of wreck it for the rest of us.  Other than criticizing the government, what do you do to make your world a better place?

Our system of identifying one another is antiquated and no longer has any valid purpose.  It is one more example of a situation where nothing will be done about it until there is a smouldering city block or a pile of dead people and then someone will go "gee, what should we do to avoid this the next time".  I would think people would be encouraged to perhaps trust the government a little more (isn't that why these guys got voted in?) because they are showing some due diligence to try to head off a problem before someone gets hurt.

It is easy to sit back and shoot down ideas.  It is the corner stone of socialism:  rip appart others ideas but don't offer solutions.  If not a biometrically enhanced national ID card, how can we hope to deal with identity fraud, terrorism, our sieve borders and national security in general?

 

[redleafjumper]

Zipperhead_cop,  while I respect your zeal in defending Canada, I must dispute your method.  The attraction of Canada for many is not its reputation for security but its reputation for freedom.  From my way of thinking, a  national ID card has nothing to do with providing anything but a false sense of security, while at the same time providing a means of tracking large numbers of people for dubious purposes, more related to control, than security. 

What type of terrorism would such a card prevent?  The Air India attack? Marc Lepine shooting people?  Someone sneaking a nuclear device into a Canadian port through the security sieve that those places are, and detonating it even at point of inspection?  Hmm, I don't think so.  When a terrorist is below the radar, that is, doesn't associate with suspicious folks, keeps away from such toys as cell phones and computers and engages in otherwise legitimate activities, up until their act of terrorism,  no fancy ID card in the world is going to stop that.  One of the things that I appreciate most in this country is that it is not a "Your papers please!" environment that I have seen operate in tin-pot dictatorships all around the world.  It is an historical fact that state terrorism (Armenia, Bosnia, Rwanda, Guatemala, Cambodia, USSR, China, etc. gee,  did I mention Germany?) has killed far more people in even the past 100 years than spectacular single acts by ideologically-driven fanatics.

I disagree that we haven't seen terrorist attacks based in Canada, I think the examples provided show that we have.  I do agree that the lack of a major attack is more of a function of the temporary lack of desire on the part of those who would do such things.  I also disagree with your characterisation that it is a function of the left to criticize security and statist control over people in the way that you describe.  Far from it, such statist activities are highly characteristic of the "mommy democracy" of the left that claims to provide all the measures to protect and look after all of us throughout our lives.

I think my philosophical objections to such a card would include premises that I do not believe that such a thing would provide the security claimed, and that I am concerned that it would be abused for purposes well beyond trying to stop something that it cannot.  In short, I don't belive it would "work", and I don't believe that any percieved benefit is worth the range of costs that would be associated with it. 

I am all in favour of enhanced security procedure at points of entry, but realize that procedures that would work would be very expensive, not only in direct costs, such as more Customs Officers, screening equipment, shipping container inspections, etc., but also in terms of the necessary delays which would slow transportation down to the point where the economy is affected.

Proposals for such things as national biometric-based ID cards tell me that any terrorists don't have to do much here, as we are quite prepared to do their work of limiting freedom and creating an environment of fear for them.

(edited to fix apostrophe error)

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Wow, did you read my post?

Once more....all the info on the card already exists "out there", all it does is put it in one much more secure device.

Quote,
From my way of thinking, a  national ID card has nothing to do with providing anything but a false sense of security, while at the same time providing a means of tracking large numbers of people for dubious purposes

Well then turn in your health card and start paying under the table for your doctor visits,.... your work benifit card?...destroy it quick!!!!!, ...ATM card....AARRRGGG!!!.....getting the point yet?

 

[George Wallace]

As this discussion carries on and on, I tend to think back to the discussion that must have gone on way back when, ages ago, and time and time again, over and over again.  What was said for and against the issuance of Health Cards, SIN Cards, Drivers Licences, Passports, Military ID, Credit Cards, Interact Bank Cards before their implementation?  All the same arguments over and over, time immoral.  What was argued before over DNA use in the Courts, and Fingerprints before that? 

I find it funny that people are arguing against this "One Card" to do all, by saying we already have several that do the same thing and that one more will infringe on our rights and freedoms.  When the same arguments were used in the past, for issuance of those very same cards.  Imagine what the arguments were for the first piece of ID that was created some centuries ago?  Were they not basically the same arguments?

 

[TCBF]

When I was a kid, there was a  family from Scotland that was in a dispute with the post office because the father refused to put numbers on his house.  He argued that the people who needed to - including the mailman - knew who lived there, and it was nobody else's business.

Tom

 

[geo]

no pleasing everybody..............

 

[STONEY]

Did anyone here read the news report that started this tread, well read it again.  It simply says a new card might be needed for travel outside Canada . If you dont want one ,then stay home. Why complicate things, if you fly in a commercial aircraft you require a ticket so if you dont have a ticket you can't fly. If you want to go to the U.S. and they require a ID that costs 25 bucks instead of a passport that costs a 100 bucks then either get one or don't go and stay home.  Ta Ta.

 

[DJ]

So the lesson here is to have faith in our policy makers and never ask questions?

 

[geo]

Note that the US has an even bigger "sell" job for it's population.
The "national ID card" is something that Homeland security wants for people entering the US.... be they Cdn visitors (who are traveling without a passport) OR US Citzens who have come up north for some R&R.
The Governors & senators from the northern states have led the opposition to these cards....... more to follow - I guess.

 

[geo]

So the lesson here is to have faith in our policy makers and never ask questions?

Wouldn't go that far...........

 

[2 Cdo]

I only have one potential problem with this. If a government runs a 1000% over budget for a gun registry, how much would a National ID card over run!

 

[geo]

(heh.... have you heard about the computer system that is used to keep track of the GST?)

 

[Brad Sallows]

>Were they not basically the same arguments?

Yes, and in each case some degree of freedom was surrendered to security.

Those of you on the "inside" of security endeavours also know that the bad guys recruit people to work on the "inside" as well.  One of the (possibly) tall tales I rather enjoyed was the one about the officer who undertook to infiltrate a criminal organization and wound up trussed like a turkey dumped on the lawn of a local law enforcement property with a note to the effect "we think this belongs to you".  That could certainly have gone worse.  Regardless whether that incident actually happened, those of you on the "inside" must be aware of the fact that the human element is not watertight.  Information grows legs.

Have credit cards and ATM cards made it easier or harder to rip people off?  I can turn them both off tomorrow and go back to making cash withdrawals from my local bank branch.  I have control over the decision to use those.  Whether I've conceded to use them is irrelevant to my other objections.

The more trustworthy the ID, the less additional verification people seek.  Is that a good thing?

 

[zipperhead_cop]

Zipperhead_cop,  while I respect your zeal in defending Canada, I must dispute your method.  The attraction of Canada for many is not its reputation for security but its reputation for freedom.  From my way of thinking, a  national ID card has nothing to do with providing anything but a false sense of security, while at the same time providing a means of tracking large numbers of people for dubious purposes, more related to control, than security.

Your reputation for freedom is the worlds reputation for being suckers.  Are you actually saying you would rather have this wide open terror and criminal playground for a country than be safer from identity theft?  The mind reels...

What type of terrorism would such a card prevent?  The Air India attack? Marc Lepine shooting people?  Someone sneaking a nuclear device into a Canadian port through the security sieve that those places are, and detonating it even at point of inspection?  Hmm, I don't think so.  When a terrorist is below the radar, that is, doesn't associate with suspicious folks, keeps away from such toys as cell phones and computers and engages in otherwise legitimate activities, up until their act of terrorism,  no fancy ID card in the world is going to stop that. 

Okay, your terror example is an old one, and Marc Lepine was a psycho.  An ID card also has NOTHING to do with port security.  You are arguing apples and base ball bats.  This isn't to stop violence, it is to identify people.  Does your SIN card or drivers licence save you from peril now?  Must be better than the ones issued here in Ontario.  The reason they are below the radar is that they are POSING as people who don't show on the radar.  You can get hundreds of dollars for selling your passport to a criminal.  What do you think happens to the passport?  It's not used to wallpaper someones bathroom ???
The ID card isn't some magic bullet, it IS AN ID CARD.

One of the things that I appreciate most in this country is that it is not a "Your papers please!" environment that I have seen operate in tin-pot dictatorships all around the world.  It is an historical fact that state terrorism (Armenia, Bosnia, Rwanda, Guatemala, Cambodia, USSR, China, etc. gee,  did I mention Germany?) has killed far more people in even the past 100 years than spectacular single acts by ideologically-driven fanatics.

So, by your thinking, because you have the card, it will obviously be brought into force of law, on pain of arrest, to present it at any and all times with no probable cause.  No doubt, all of the worst demogouges around the world got launched to power with a wallet sized piece of plastic with a photo and some numbers.  By the way, currently, refugees are required at all times to carry their papers with them.  Think that happens? 

I disagree that we haven't seen terrorist attacks based in Canada, I think the examples provided show that we have.  I do agree that the lack of a major attack is more of a function of the temporary lack of desire on the part of those who would do such things.  I also disagree with your characterisation that it is a function of the left to criticize security and statist control over people in the way that you describe.  Far from it, such statist activities are highly characteristic of the "mommy democracy" of the left that claims to provide all the measures to protect and look after all of us throughout our lives.

I will concede that there are more learned persons on this site who can speak to the left and right ends of the political spectrum and their typical characteristics.  As a generality, the left in Canada are winy, socialist crybabies that fear all things conservative (IMHO).

I think my philosophical objections to such a card would include premises that I do not believe that such a thing would provide the security claimed, and that I am concerned that it would be abused for purposes well beyond trying to stop something that it cannot.  In short, I don't belive it would "work", and I don't believe that any percieved benefit is worth the range of costs that would be associated with it. 

And I am sure that in your professional opinion, which includes the ability to do national threat level assessment, terrorist interdiction and international document codification that is a great assessment.  Because otherwise, you just posted "Me don't like it, make me feel poo poo".

I am all in favour of enhanced security procedure at points of entry, but realize that procedures that would work would be very expensive, not only in direct costs, such as more Customs Officers, screening equipment, shipping container inspections, etc., but also in terms of the necessary delays which would slow transportation down to the point where the economy is affected.

Proposals for such things as national biometric-based ID cards tell me that any terrorists don't have to do much here, as we are quite prepared to do their work of limiting freedom and creating an environment of fear for them.

(edited to fix apostrophe error)

Again, you are talking about importation of goods and commercial interdiction.  It has nothing to do with identifying individuals, unless they turn up in a shipping container or transport truck. 

>Were they not basically the same arguments?

Yes, and in each case some degree of freedom was surrendered to security.

Those of you on the "inside" of security endeavours also know that the bad guys recruit people to work on the "inside" as well.  One of the (possibly) tall tales I rather enjoyed was the one about the officer who undertook to infiltrate a criminal organization and wound up trussed like a turkey dumped on the lawn of a local law enforcement property with a note to the effect "we think this belongs to you".  That could certainly have gone worse.  Regardless whether that incident actually happened, those of you on the "inside" must be aware of the fact that the human element is not watertight.  Information grows legs.

Have credit cards and ATM cards made it easier or harder to rip people off?  I can turn them both off tomorrow and go back to making cash withdrawals from my local bank branch.  I have control over the decision to use those.  Whether I've conceded to use them is irrelevant to my other objections.

The more trustworthy the ID, the less additional verification people seek.  Is that a good thing?

Having a deep cover agent burned has nothing to do with a card to identify people within Canada (although what you describe sounds like something from an episode of Smokey and the Bear).  It is the human element that is being eliminated. 
Honestly, there have got to be some really guilty conscience's leaking out here.  There are thousands upon thousands of criminals in and out of Canada trying to do harm here.  There are even thousands of more radical and alarming vocal disenters who on an outside chance may attract someones attention.  You as Joe Nobody is just not interesting enough to warrant attention.  Sorry.  Don't want to burst anyones bubble here.  I know for my part, I do a lot of crazy crap, and I could seriously care less who is watching.  And I actually have a whole set of rules that can give me real penalties that most of you don't. 
Brad, you got all bent earlier when you felt that I was bragging about the powers that exist for policing.  That was not my intention.  I am just trying to show that there is nothing special about this stuff (search warrants, bugs, GPS).  It happens all the time, but only to the worst people whom you would want on a short leash. 
So you don't trust the Government?  No one really does completely.  But what do you think, in your worst case scenario, they could do to misuse the information?  Please illuminate this info boogie man you are so terrified by, because I for one just don't get it.

 

[Rodders]

"As a generality, the left in Canada are winy, socialist crybabies that fear all things conservative (IMHO)."

So as an equal generalization, the right in Canada are inconsiderate, intolerant looking-out-for-number-ones that despise anything different than the status quo. IMNSHO.

Don't speak in generalizations. Maybe you should consider the inherent dangers of painting one group with the same brush. Or don't. Just remember. Stalin was on the political left. Hitler was on the political right. Do you want to be that limiting?