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I‘ve also heard the reserves are getting the Chevy Cheyennes, and the regs are getting the mercedes, and eventually the mercedes will trickle down to reserves. I‘ve also seen, in bordon, dudes torking around in shinny green jeep cherokees in the bush, Permanent thing? I dont know, may just be a temp solution thing.
H
Harry
Guest
Right... :blotto: The 5/4 was a temporary solution as well 
.
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He who uses Jungle wrote:
"Why not disband the CF and hire a Private Military Company whenever we need troops"
Don‘t joke about it - see
http://latimes.com/templates/misc/printstory.jsp?slug=la%2D000026555apr14
U.S. Companies Hired to Train Foreign Armies
Yours,
Jock in Sydney
"Why not disband the CF and hire a Private Military Company whenever we need troops"
Don‘t joke about it - see
http://latimes.com/templates/misc/printstory.jsp?slug=la%2D000026555apr14
U.S. Companies Hired to Train Foreign Armies
Yours,
Jock in Sydney
- Reaction score
- 5,141
- Points
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Olive,
The Cheyannes and/ or variants have been used in Borden and the G‘Spot for a number of years as the DS vehicle and all round runabout for the schools. Not a new thing or anything to get worked up about
The Cheyannes and/ or variants have been used in Borden and the G‘Spot for a number of years as the DS vehicle and all round runabout for the schools. Not a new thing or anything to get worked up about
Michael Dorosh
Army.ca Veteran
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 410
I have driven US Army HUMVEEs (they are NOT "Hummers") both on road and off; they are big and noisy - just like driving an MLVW, and you can‘t fit any more troops into them than an Iltis, thanks to the odd layout inside. Thanks, but no thanks. Anybody who would wish for one probably hasn‘t driven one.
I still don‘t see what advanatages the ILTIS had over the tried and true JEEP, be it the CJ configuration or even the older M38 or Willy‘s/GPW.
I agree something needs to be done about both the Iltis and LSVW, but HMMVWs are not the answer.
Incidentally, will we ever see a truck that has spring loaded troop seats in the back? I can‘t count the number of times I‘ve ended up flat on my back in the cargo section of an ML or LS hanging on for dear life because the seats have absolutely no spring to them.
I still don‘t see what advanatages the ILTIS had over the tried and true JEEP, be it the CJ configuration or even the older M38 or Willy‘s/GPW.
I agree something needs to be done about both the Iltis and LSVW, but HMMVWs are not the answer.
Incidentally, will we ever see a truck that has spring loaded troop seats in the back? I can‘t count the number of times I‘ve ended up flat on my back in the cargo section of an ML or LS hanging on for dear life because the seats have absolutely no spring to them.
H
Harry
Guest
Egads, the HMMWV debate rears its ugly head again.
I have also operated the HUMVEE. Let’s explore once again a couple of facts. That is after I relate my experience of seeing a picture showing a TOW gun taped into an Iltis last week in Afganistan. Needless to say I choked on my Oaties after spitting most it across the kitchen in a fit of laughter (guess the TOW BV206 are doing other things?).
The HMMVW was designed to replace what we call the LS and ML of the US wheeled fleet. It fits four pers as indicated in what you consider an odd lay out. If anyone checked the specs, each pers has their own little mine protective bathtub so to speak. The integral safety features of this can not be touched by too many existing multi purpose wheeled vehs our mandarins have considered.
It has been designed to fit everything from an M-60 to a turret mounted Air Defence Missile system and there are models with a 20mm enclosed turret. Lets be straight up, some may disparage the HMMVW, but I think it will handle a lot better than an Iltis with a TOW on it. There are various versions for various roles including troop carrier. I would surmise based upon manufacturer spec, that the HMMVW has a higher survivability rating than an MLVW WRT mine strikes. As for sounding like an MLVW, well it replaced the Merican fleet of similar trucks and subsequently would have to have a similar veh power plant to fulfill this role, wonder why it sounds like one?
For what the HUMVEE is and the multiple roles it fulfills, you couldn’t get a better vehicle. I am willing to go out on a limb here, after all costs are added up, the G-Wagen will cost more and not be as adaptable. It will not even compare in the HUMVEE’s built in defensive armor and the survivability ratings.
Why did the Iltis replace the old Jeeps, safety? They were old, getting worn out and they showed it. Ask the guys in Gagetown that got smeared onto the Trans Canada, oh sorry, they didn’t make it. But it illuminates a valid point, we operate three types of wheeled fleets, in reality we could replace two with a good single fleet veh and maintain the heavy fleet as is. The LSVW is similar in size and payload requirements, side by side, the LSVW pales in comparison.
And my two cents worth on rear troop carrying. When will we ever adopt centre mounted seating so the troops can roll up the tarps and face outwards, providing both safety in the event of a mine strike (not sitting over the blast) and can respond to an attack/ambush.
It’s a tough debate, but IMHO, the HUMVEE is superior to anything we have fielded to date based upon payload specs, capabilities and survivability. After traipsing around the world and operating some pretty wild kit, the HUMVEE does stand out.
On the down side, I think any veh wishes we have, have been soundly put to sleep for a long time by or government. Why would we replace a vehicle that fits into the light support role with a vehicle that will cost (after all the bells, whistles and kick backs) over four times the value of an Iltis (yes the Iltis was grossly over priced by Bombardier) and 5 times any Jeep series? Mind boggling, like spending $150 g on a run about for local trips and then justifying it by explaining the undercoating and warranty cost as much as the car.
I have also operated the HUMVEE. Let’s explore once again a couple of facts. That is after I relate my experience of seeing a picture showing a TOW gun taped into an Iltis last week in Afganistan. Needless to say I choked on my Oaties after spitting most it across the kitchen in a fit of laughter (guess the TOW BV206 are doing other things?).
The HMMVW was designed to replace what we call the LS and ML of the US wheeled fleet. It fits four pers as indicated in what you consider an odd lay out. If anyone checked the specs, each pers has their own little mine protective bathtub so to speak. The integral safety features of this can not be touched by too many existing multi purpose wheeled vehs our mandarins have considered.
It has been designed to fit everything from an M-60 to a turret mounted Air Defence Missile system and there are models with a 20mm enclosed turret. Lets be straight up, some may disparage the HMMVW, but I think it will handle a lot better than an Iltis with a TOW on it. There are various versions for various roles including troop carrier. I would surmise based upon manufacturer spec, that the HMMVW has a higher survivability rating than an MLVW WRT mine strikes. As for sounding like an MLVW, well it replaced the Merican fleet of similar trucks and subsequently would have to have a similar veh power plant to fulfill this role, wonder why it sounds like one?
For what the HUMVEE is and the multiple roles it fulfills, you couldn’t get a better vehicle. I am willing to go out on a limb here, after all costs are added up, the G-Wagen will cost more and not be as adaptable. It will not even compare in the HUMVEE’s built in defensive armor and the survivability ratings.
Why did the Iltis replace the old Jeeps, safety? They were old, getting worn out and they showed it. Ask the guys in Gagetown that got smeared onto the Trans Canada, oh sorry, they didn’t make it. But it illuminates a valid point, we operate three types of wheeled fleets, in reality we could replace two with a good single fleet veh and maintain the heavy fleet as is. The LSVW is similar in size and payload requirements, side by side, the LSVW pales in comparison.
And my two cents worth on rear troop carrying. When will we ever adopt centre mounted seating so the troops can roll up the tarps and face outwards, providing both safety in the event of a mine strike (not sitting over the blast) and can respond to an attack/ambush.
It’s a tough debate, but IMHO, the HUMVEE is superior to anything we have fielded to date based upon payload specs, capabilities and survivability. After traipsing around the world and operating some pretty wild kit, the HUMVEE does stand out.
On the down side, I think any veh wishes we have, have been soundly put to sleep for a long time by or government. Why would we replace a vehicle that fits into the light support role with a vehicle that will cost (after all the bells, whistles and kick backs) over four times the value of an Iltis (yes the Iltis was grossly over priced by Bombardier) and 5 times any Jeep series? Mind boggling, like spending $150 g on a run about for local trips and then justifying it by explaining the undercoating and warranty cost as much as the car.
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
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I had an opportunity to check out the new G-Wagon while on course in Borden; although i didn't drive it :'(, i did sit in one. I know they are very reliable having been in use by other forces around the world for many, many years. To those that have driven it, what do you think? Was it a wise investment? Should we have bought more if the $$$$ was there?
My thoughts on the MILCOTS:
They have to be the biggest waste of money spent by DND since the purchase of the LSVW :rage:. Why in the world would you buy a truck, the same one i drive daily, paint it green, B/O lights, and all that other army stuff, and then say it is not be used in the field :rage: :rage:!! WHERE'S THE LOGIC!!!! I understand we needed to replace the iltis, but with a pickup that is essentially the same as the civvy crewcabs??? ??? Why not save the money spent on MILCOTS and put it towards the G-Wagon; or maybe something a little cheaper like the Jeep Liberty, (new diesel version being introduced).
I think the army needs to find some better ways to spend money when it comes to vehicle replacements. The MLVW will be the next vehicle to be replaced. What are they going to chose, Ford 3-tons painted camo green with B/O lights????? I hate to say it, but the big P needs to disappear. That being Politics. Why can we not buy vehicles from a fellow allied country. I understand the government wants to create jobs for the people of canada. But to tell a bidding corporation they have to set up and build in Canada, is in my opinion, nonsense. A plan needs to be put in place to replace vehicles every 15 years at the most.
Money should be set aside in some sort of trust, so when the time comes, there is no strain on the various departments, and the army gets what it needs.
I'm in a reserve Service Battalion, and have a severe shortage of vehicles. 1 HL Cargo, 1 HL TCV, another on the way(believe it when i see it), 3 ML, and i believe 5 LSVW. How can a Service Battalion effectively do it's job, without the tools to do it.
Enough for now, i'm starting to ramble on.
Just my 0.02
My thoughts on the MILCOTS:
They have to be the biggest waste of money spent by DND since the purchase of the LSVW :rage:. Why in the world would you buy a truck, the same one i drive daily, paint it green, B/O lights, and all that other army stuff, and then say it is not be used in the field :rage: :rage:!! WHERE'S THE LOGIC!!!! I understand we needed to replace the iltis, but with a pickup that is essentially the same as the civvy crewcabs??? ??? Why not save the money spent on MILCOTS and put it towards the G-Wagon; or maybe something a little cheaper like the Jeep Liberty, (new diesel version being introduced).
I think the army needs to find some better ways to spend money when it comes to vehicle replacements. The MLVW will be the next vehicle to be replaced
. What are they going to chose, Ford 3-tons painted camo green with B/O lights????? I hate to say it, but the big P needs to disappear. That being Politics. Why can we not buy vehicles from a fellow allied country. I understand the government wants to create jobs for the people of canada. But to tell a bidding corporation they have to set up and build in Canada, is in my opinion, nonsense. A plan needs to be put in place to replace vehicles every 15 years at the most. Money should be set aside in some sort of trust, so when the time comes, there is no strain on the various departments, and the army gets what it needs.
I'm in a reserve Service Battalion, and have a severe shortage of vehicles. 1 HL Cargo, 1 HL TCV, another on the way(believe it when i see it), 3 ML, and i believe 5 LSVW. How can a Service Battalion effectively do it's job, without the tools to do it.
Enough for now, i'm starting to ramble on.
Just my 0.02
Y
Yard Ape
Guest
Where did you hear that the MilCOTS is not to be used off roads? That's got to be the most pure BS I've ever heard. Over the last week, I've watched dozens of them beating about off roads.
- Reaction score
- 5
- Points
- 430
21trucker said:
Before the LSVW we has the 5/4-ton fleet (CPs, cargo, mortar carriers, etc.), a civilian pattern vehicle purchased on a 5-year interim project - that we ran for 25 years. All with support from civilian parts and maintenence when local military facilities were unavailable or over-burdened. We've already proven that the MILCOTS approach works for domestic fleets.
Also, from what I have been told, there was input from the Reserves on what type of vehicle they wanted as a unit vehicle and what their requirements were. Many reserve unit transportation tasks involve the transport of a mix of personnel and equipment (advance parties, range staffs, etc.) that the Iltis alone didn't handle well, and had to be supplemented by CQ stores vehicles or rentals. Probably the most used vehicle in many reserve units has been the rented (or CF) extended cab - and it's very likely that compiled brigade or unit staff returns indicated that more of them would carry the administrative load of the units better than any other option. For the most part, except for in the reserve Recce Regiments (which I believe will eventually get G-wagons, correct me if I am wrong) the Iltis was seldom used as a recce or command vehicle, and most used in admin roles through the unit training year.
21trucker said:
Please let us know how many vehicles you believe your unit should own to support it's 30-40 training days per year. Extrapolate this by the number of Reserve Service Battalions, and add equally generous entitlements for all of the rest of the Reserves to meet their training requirements. Now, how many extra vehicles should we be buying, with the same Defence budget.
Y
Yard Ape
Guest
I personnaly think that every civillian pattern crew-cab in the CF should be replaced by a MilCOTS (1 for 1 change). This would give flexibility to use all vehicles in the field.
Lance Wiebe
Sr. Member
- Reaction score
- 6
- Points
- 230
The 5/4 is a poor example. It showed exactly what happens when a civilian vehicle is used as an SMP. In the long run, they were far more expensive than a dedicated SMP. Yes, they were cheaper to buy initially, but were far more expensive to maintain. The Chev was just not tough enough.
On the other hand, a purpose built military vehicle that was adapted to civilian life is great. Vehicles like the Hummer and the Gelandewagen are good examples. Steyr also makes an excellent 2 1/2 ton truck that has been used as support vehicles in the Paris-Dakar race by civilian firms. The vehicles are there, we just need to buy the right thing. Who cares if they are made by Bombardier or Western Star?
The Milcots should be good for its intended task, as a support/echelon vehicle. And, I agree with Yard Ape, the leased/rented crew cabs should, and hopefully will, all be replaced. I also was told, by an RSS Sgt that I know, that the operators being taught the Milcots were told that the vehicle should not be used cross-country, they should only be used on, at worst, black tracks. This is because they are certainly not designed to be a Gelandewagen wannabe!
On the other hand, a purpose built military vehicle that was adapted to civilian life is great. Vehicles like the Hummer and the Gelandewagen are good examples. Steyr also makes an excellent 2 1/2 ton truck that has been used as support vehicles in the Paris-Dakar race by civilian firms. The vehicles are there, we just need to buy the right thing. Who cares if they are made by Bombardier or Western Star?
The Milcots should be good for its intended task, as a support/echelon vehicle. And, I agree with Yard Ape, the leased/rented crew cabs should, and hopefully will, all be replaced. I also was told, by an RSS Sgt that I know, that the operators being taught the Milcots were told that the vehicle should not be used cross-country, they should only be used on, at worst, black tracks. This is because they are certainly not designed to be a Gelandewagen wannabe!
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Mike,
I can see where you are coming from. However, how can the upper echelon expect us to do our job if we don't have the resources. Do our LSVW's need to outnumber our ML's and HL's put together??? Our unit is growing in MSE Op' s; how effective are we going to be, doing DP's and convoy driving with 2-4 heavy trucks?? Especially considering drivers outnumber the trucks available??? Do we put out a schedule as to who does what week to week?? Is everyone going to get their 1000kms to stay current every training year?? I have been in the reserves 13 years now, and i don't think it has ever been this bad; in the way of a lack of vehicles. Sometimes i wonder what i'm still doing here, but i hang in hoping it will get better.
My sentiments exactly, Yard ape. Not to mention the possible PR being done in some towns by having these driving around as they are doing admin duties, etc.
Lance, i agree. The Steyr would make an excellent replacement for the MLVW. We should be buying from our allies whenever possible to help stretch out our measly defence budget. As stated before, a life cycle needs to be developed and vehicles replaced in a timely matter (10-15 years) and not 20. Why do we have to award a DEFENCE contract to a snowmobile/watercraft company. They only mess things up. Prime example is the Iltis, what would have cost about $37,000 to have it built in Germany, ended up costing about $80,000 because Bombardier had to re-tool their shop and buy the blueprints.
- Reaction score
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While standing sentry at the recent ArCon, we had a seperate gate, with a parking area from which the owners had to walk into the camp from, nearby for civvie pattern vehicles as the roads within the camp had become exceptionally bad.
Out of curiosity, I asked if the MilCots were considered civvie pattern or military pattern... after about a half hour of checking, the person on the other end of the radio replied that they were considered civvie pattern...
Out of curiosity, I asked if the MilCots were considered civvie pattern or military pattern... after about a half hour of checking, the person on the other end of the radio replied that they were considered civvie pattern...
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As someone who has put a lot of Km on the new MILCOTS both on the hwyway and the bush...I think I can safely say that it is a vast improvement over the Iltis. I now have more internal capacity, we can be more doctrinally in line with our allies with the 3 man jeep team.
As for not going off road...It's a MILITARIZED veh. It can handle the rough stuff. For those of you who say it can't go through deep sand or mud...how soon you forget the Iltis sucked in sand as well, the LSVW is only good in the snow if parked and the fuel fired coolant heater is miraculously working.
What we got was a dependable truck that can perform off road well enough to meet our needs that will not have huge maint issues for remote units.
My 2 cents
As for not going off road...It's a MILITARIZED veh. It can handle the rough stuff. For those of you who say it can't go through deep sand or mud...how soon you forget the Iltis sucked in sand as well, the LSVW is only good in the snow if parked and the fuel fired coolant heater is miraculously working.
What we got was a dependable truck that can perform off road well enough to meet our needs that will not have huge maint issues for remote units.
My 2 cents
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Any vehicle that doesn't have to have recovery's phone number taped to dash is a welcome change.
From a sig perspective - I'm sure there will be some issues with the CP pods but that will work itself out since
we've been wasting most of our valuable training time anyways jury rigging mods and gear because
half the convoy broke down en-route to the training area.
oh and if the things could actually maintain highway speed into the wind so we can actually traverse
the rather large distances we have to travel in this country --- that would be nice ---
As for offroad capabilities --- I've driven Hummers (in stuff that you wouldn't want to try in something else), Iltis, MLVW's, Toyota's, and have a Dodge 3500.
Haven't seen the performance of the G-Wagon yet ---- but it doesn't matter what you have if you have people behind the wheel who don't know how to drive offroad
- most of what I've seen is people who drive daily on pavement (maybe a few gravel roads / forestry roads once in awhile) climb into a military vehicle and either
a) think it's some type of dirt bike/quad purposely running em thru bogs - revving em up and generally playing till they get stuck (which sucks for them since we don't carry recovery straps, cumalongs/winches (which is kind of odd considering).
or
b) drive beyond THEIR capabilities - offroad driving is a different skillset -
We aren't privy to whether our higher ups were asked to comment on what capabilities we needed - but I hope they answered thinking about how we train/respond
- sub-arctic nation - deep snow in winter, muddy deeply rutted roads at other times - yes it needs to be usable in the field (or are we now relegated to practicing in parking lots??? local campgrounds??? : )
- big country - need to be able to get to places in a somewhat timely manner.
- trucks sit outside in winter for extended periods
- need to carry/transport A LOT of gear/equipment
- able to ascend steep forestry roads without overheating like they did on Op Peregrine - even if you were using the lower gears to keep the tranny fluid circulating (as recommended by the Vehtechs)
- able to get repair parts for them - easily - so it can be fixed in a week - as opposed to a month.
- and while we only use them for 30-40 training days each year - trying to pool them or make them universally accessible to everyone - just wastes a reserve units training time by having to prep a vehicle all the time - our ex's/training has now ground down to prep truck/unprep truck (assuming someone hasn't 'borrowed/loaned' out the truck/gear you need) - not exactly a valuable use of our time...
I'd rather have vehicles that at least allows us to practice what we are supposed to; and allows us to get where we are needed - I'm okay with leaving the big boy trucks to the guys who are using them as tools - they need them.
From a sig perspective - I'm sure there will be some issues with the CP pods but that will work itself out since
we've been wasting most of our valuable training time anyways jury rigging mods and gear because
half the convoy broke down en-route to the training area.
oh and if the things could actually maintain highway speed into the wind so we can actually traverse
the rather large distances we have to travel in this country --- that would be nice ---
As for offroad capabilities --- I've driven Hummers (in stuff that you wouldn't want to try in something else), Iltis, MLVW's, Toyota's, and have a Dodge 3500.
Haven't seen the performance of the G-Wagon yet ---- but it doesn't matter what you have if you have people behind the wheel who don't know how to drive offroad
- most of what I've seen is people who drive daily on pavement (maybe a few gravel roads / forestry roads once in awhile) climb into a military vehicle and either
a) think it's some type of dirt bike/quad purposely running em thru bogs - revving em up and generally playing till they get stuck (which sucks for them since we don't carry recovery straps, cumalongs/winches (which is kind of odd considering).
or
b) drive beyond THEIR capabilities - offroad driving is a different skillset -
We aren't privy to whether our higher ups were asked to comment on what capabilities we needed - but I hope they answered thinking about how we train/respond
- sub-arctic nation - deep snow in winter, muddy deeply rutted roads at other times - yes it needs to be usable in the field (or are we now relegated to practicing in parking lots??? local campgrounds??? :
)- big country - need to be able to get to places in a somewhat timely manner.
- trucks sit outside in winter for extended periods
- need to carry/transport A LOT of gear/equipment
- able to ascend steep forestry roads without overheating like they did on Op Peregrine - even if you were using the lower gears to keep the tranny fluid circulating (as recommended by the Vehtechs)
- able to get repair parts for them - easily - so it can be fixed in a week - as opposed to a month.
- and while we only use them for 30-40 training days each year - trying to pool them or make them universally accessible to everyone - just wastes a reserve units training time by having to prep a vehicle all the time - our ex's/training has now ground down to prep truck/unprep truck (assuming someone hasn't 'borrowed/loaned' out the truck/gear you need) - not exactly a valuable use of our time...
I'd rather have vehicles that at least allows us to practice what we are supposed to; and allows us to get where we are needed - I'm okay with leaving the big boy trucks to the guys who are using them as tools - they need them.
Michael Dorosh
Army.ca Veteran
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 410
I am glad the initial off the mark comments in this thread were so quickly rebuffed. As a company OC's driver, I'll be extremely happy not to have to piss around with a trailer- the Iltis just couldn't fit myself, the OC, the CSM, sometimes the Coy 2 i/c, four rucksacks, webgear, weapons, plus camp stores, radio equipment, antenna mast unit, etc. The few exs I've been on, Coy HQ was set up next to an MSR anyway, so the OC could report to bn or bde/BG HQ as required.
My only question - does the MILCOT have a radio tray in the cab?
Oh, and having driven a friend's privately owned US Army Hummer, whatever mobility they have, I have to say they suck in other respects. They are slow and noisy like an ML and have marginally more useable space inside for stowage. Not to mention being twice as wide as the Iltis and with poor visibility for the driver. And the one I was in had a leaky roof on top of it, probably due to the weapons mount.
But - if it means not having to drive back through the training area the morning after a convoy drive to find the doors that have fallen off, like I've done with the Polecat, I'd drive my mother's Honda Civic in the training area.
My only question - does the MILCOT have a radio tray in the cab?
Oh, and having driven a friend's privately owned US Army Hummer, whatever mobility they have, I have to say they suck in other respects. They are slow and noisy like an ML and have marginally more useable space inside for stowage. Not to mention being twice as wide as the Iltis and with poor visibility for the driver. And the one I was in had a leaky roof on top of it, probably due to the weapons mount.
But - if it means not having to drive back through the training area the morning after a convoy drive to find the doors that have fallen off, like I've done with the Polecat, I'd drive my mother's Honda Civic in the training area.
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
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thanks for reminding me --- the trailer... we pull our 10K gene for the CP det
a trailer light plug in receptacle that actually works ... and doesn't fall out halfway down the route... ^-^
p.s. I think the leaking roof/window on the Hummer is common - my buddies civi Hummer (which I call the big tractor) does the same...
a trailer light plug in receptacle that actually works ... and doesn't fall out halfway down the route... ^-^
p.s. I think the leaking roof/window on the Hummer is common - my buddies civi Hummer (which I call the big tractor) does the same...
- Reaction score
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- 1,160
Michael Dorosh said:
Only certain variants do. On the recent Stalwart Guardian, the Ex Commander, BGen Young, had to borrow my Troop's Milcot, because it was one of a few that has a radio. Don't get me started on the antenae AMU though..... Only the recce models have it, MP variants do not.
Onto the Milcot itself. People think they can offroad all they want in it. I'd rather be in an LS. These vehicles are going to be abused, misused, and destroyed within a couple years, if people don't start losing thier 404s for screwing around in them.
Michael Dorosh
Army.ca Veteran
- Reaction score
- 0
- Points
- 410
SuperSlug said:
Thanks!
