Justin Trudeau hints at boosting Canada’s military spending

I'll believe it when I see it.

 

[Booter]

You're right, except it didn't have to be this way. We havent maintained and renovated over time, instead we've kicked the can so far down the road the that were on a piled stone foundation, with knob and tube wiring and a tarpaper roof... Just using my own previous analogy.

100% but this is a country wide philosophy, if it’s not being used it’s probably not important. Look at provincial emergency management. Police. Health care.

Everyone is shocked that the system designed fifty years ago needs maintenance.

I may have this wrong- it wasn’t my area- does the forces not start trying to get people out or remustered the moment a trade is over it’s numbers?

That constant needles eye staffing wouldn’t support growth- creates a nonsensical training system that only runs courses every couple years- creates boom and bust trades…

In my experience with army reservists- they were obsessed with doing things so cheaply that they would rather maintain untrained soldiers untrained for longer than required rather than sending them to another area to do their training,

I’m way out of my depth here and my observations are dated- but it always seemed like we were happy to have a number on paper and attrition wasn’t really a concern.

So say we got the money- we don’t have the people trained to do things. A couple training missions around the globe. Logistics that are essentially assuming that we ll always be in a coalition so we can use their stuff.

 

[Halifax Tar]

100% but this is a country wide philosophy, if it’s not being used it’s probably not important. Look at provincial emergency management. Police. Health care.

Everyone is shocked that the system designed fifty years ago needs maintenance.

I may have this wrong- it wasn’t my area- does the forces not start trying to get people out or remustered the moment a trade is over it’s numbers?

That constant needles eye staffing wouldn’t support growth- creates a nonsensical training system that only runs courses every couple years- creates boom and bust trades…

In my experience with army reservists- they were obsessed with doing things so cheaply that they would rather maintain untrained soldiers untrained for longer than required rather than sending them to another area to do their training,

I’m way out of my depth here and my observations are dated- but it always seemed like we were happy to have a number on paper and attrition wasn’t really a concern.

So say we got the money- we don’t have the people trained to do things. A couple training missions around the globe. Logistics that are essentially assuming that we ll always be in a coalition so we can use their stuff.

Well we, as country, are going to be learning some tough lessons.

I wont divulge numbers, but I will tell you the new Naval Experience Program has been wildly successful; beyond what we expected, we will get more applications than billets we have. We will max out.

I think our recruiting issue is in the length of our contracts. Everyone should be joining on a 1 year probie period. 3 months of training and 9 months of employment. This would include officer intake, everyone comes in from that start point.

 

[YZT580]

Well we, as country, are going to be learning some tough lessons.

I wont divulge numbers, but I will tell you the new Naval Experience Program has been wildly successful; beyond what we expected, we will get more applications than billets we have. We will max out.

I think our recruiting issue is in the length of our contracts. Everyone should be joining on a 1 year probie period. 3 months of training and 9 months of employment. This would include officer intake, everyone comes in from that start point.

Isn't that what mandatory service out of high school produces? It appears to me that most 17/18 year old youths have no grasp on where they wish to spend their next 20 years. One year mandatory service that introduces them to several different potential career choices may be a healthy approach if done right. And yes that is a very big if. Would also require a different mind set on the part of career counsellors in high schools.

 

[dapaterson]

I wont divulge numbers, but I will tell you the new Naval Experience Program has been wildly successful; beyond what we expected, we will get more applications than billets we have. We will max out.

I think our recruiting issue is in the length of our contracts. Everyone should be joining on a 1 year probie period. 3 months of training and 9 months of employment. This would include officer intake, everyone comes in from that start point.

More applications than spaces is common; selection processes will winnow down those numbers. In some less demanding industries, ratios of a dozen or more applications to a single hiring are common.

The CAF is not unique in enrollment challenges, most all volunteer militaries are experiencing a tight labour market right now.

The CAF needs to streamline its recruiting process and include greater transparency and visibility to applicants, and move away from systems seeming dating from the Mad Men era.

That said the NEP is interesting to watch, and hopefully will generate lessons that will be learned and will make effective long term change.

 

[Halifax Tar]

More applications than spaces is common; selection processes will winnow down those numbers. In some less demanding industries, ratios of a dozen or more applications to a single hiring are common.

The CAF is not unique in enrollment challenges, most all volunteer militaries are experiencing a tight labour market right now.

The CAF needs to streamline its recruiting process and include greater transparency and visibility to applicants, and move away from systems seeming dating from the Mad Men era.

That said the NEP is interesting to watch, and hopefully will generate lessons that will be learned and will make effective long term change.

The billets are almost full now, with no slow showing for applicants.

Agreed, we need to change the way we recruit, and I think NEP might be that catalyst.

 

[dimsum]

Isn't that what mandatory service out of high school produces? It appears to me that most 17/18 year old youths have no grasp on where they wish to spend their next 20 years. One year mandatory service that introduces them to several different potential career choices may be a healthy approach if done right. And yes that is a very big if. Would also require a different mind set on the part of career counsellors in high schools.

The issue with mandatory service is what if the person knows they don't want to do it? There is a non-zero percentage that know they don't want to be in uniform.

Yeah, some of them may change their minds once in, but we would need to essentially (maybe literally) police those who don't want to, and will do anything to get out of it.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Well we, as country, are going to be learning some tough lessons.

I wont divulge numbers, but I will tell you the new Naval Experience Program has been wildly successful; beyond what we expected, we will get more applications than billets we have. We will max out.

I think our recruiting issue is in the length of our contracts. Everyone should be joining on a 1 year probie period. 3 months of training and 9 months of employment. This would include officer intake, everyone comes in from that start point.

Be careful of counting your chickens before they've hatched. The CAF has a history of declaring mission success with these types of endeavours way too early.

I wouldn't say the words "wildly successful", I would say "promising".

The program will be successful if it produces a larger cadre of OFP qualified sailors, that meet all of the enrollment standards (which will eventually need to be captured) are fit and able to deploy on operations, in a more expedient timeframe than traditional recruiting entry plans.

There is zero evidence yet that this is the case.

I've seen initiatives like this also backfire in the past with a significant negative variance from the standard deviation.

 

[YZT580]

The issue with mandatory service is what if the person knows they don't want to do it? There is a non-zero percentage that know they don't want to be in uniform.

Yeah, some of them may change their minds once in, but we would need to essentially (maybe literally) police those who don't want to, and will do anything to get out of it.

absolutely. If however it is simply part of the requirements for graduation as in grade 13, provides a skills oriented curriculum, and introduces several different career choices whilst at the same time permitting the young person to mature then perhaps it is worth considering as an alternative to where things are progressing now. The CAF cannot get recruits, kids are graduating from useless courses after spending tons of money, we are systematically destroying the concept of nationhood and we are falling behind much of the world in just about every category you wish to name except government size. And we vote for the person with the best pair of socks. We have to try something because what we are doing now isn't working.

 

[GR66]

So say we got the money- we don’t have the people trained to do things. A couple training missions around the globe. Logistics that are essentially assuming that we ll always be in a coalition so we can use their stuff.

There are lots of things we could spend our 2% on that are not pieces of equipment for which we don't currently have the trained people to operate.

Infrastructure. Maintenance of existing equipment. War stocks of munitions and parts. Key missing support weapons. Frankly I'd be more that willing to see the CAF cut back on it's current number of deployable units/ships/aircraft temporarily and spend money and PYs on building a training infrastructure that can handle future expansion.

The CAF is so broken currently that it needs a fundamental re-build right from the foundation IMHO.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Be careful of counting your chickens before they've hatched. The CAF has a history of declaring mission success with this endeavours way too early.

I wouldn't say the words "wildly successful", I would say "promising".

The program will be successful if it produces a larger cadre of OFP qualified sailors, that meet all of the enrollment standards (which will eventually need to be captured) are fit and able to deploy on operations, in a more expedient timeframe than traditional recruiting entry plans.

There is zero evidence yet that this is the case.

I've seen initiatives like this also backfire in the past with a significant negative variance from the standard deviation.

I disagree. The program has been wildly successful, thus far, as we will exceed our expectations and capability for intake.

OFP isn't a fair measure as none of them will be OFP after a year, which isn't the goal. They will complete basic then NETP and go on to be employed in the fleet moving through departments and occupations to get a feel for life on ship and at sea, hopefully choosing an occupation to move into after the year is up.

I also disagree with your assessment of the success on the others side. I think, and I have said this here for years, we should be embracing large volume short duration contracts/TOS. To me success will be 25- 30 who choose stay on, and the program growing to allow more intake the following year.

Also there hasn't been an initiative like this, for the RegF at least, since YTEP.

 

[JLB50]

Which a good many of us see right through.

The Emperor has no clothes....a charlatan

Sadly now enough people have seen through his thin veneer. Hopefully the public is beginning to see him as the charlatan he really is.

 

[OldSolduer]

Sadly now enough people have seen through his thin veneer. Hopefully the public is beginning to see him as the charlatan he really is.

I forgot to add “snake oil salesman”

 

[JLB50]

Jimmy Jones had charisma and his followers loved him for it, right to the end.

And drank the Kool Aid he offered them.

I forgot to add “snake oil salesman”

Hey, please be kind to snakes.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

100% but this is a country wide philosophy, if it’s not being used it’s probably not important. Look at provincial emergency management. Police. Health care.

Everyone is shocked that the system designed fifty years ago needs maintenance.

I may have this wrong- it wasn’t my area- does the forces not start trying to get people out or remustered the moment a trade is over it’s numbers?

That constant needles eye staffing wouldn’t support growth- creates a nonsensical training system that only runs courses every couple years- creates boom and bust trades…

In my experience with army reservists- they were obsessed with doing things so cheaply that they would rather maintain untrained soldiers untrained for longer than required rather than sending them to another area to do their training,

I’m way out of my depth here and my observations are dated- but it always seemed like we were happy to have a number on paper and attrition wasn’t really a concern.

So say we got the money- we don’t have the people trained to do things. A couple training missions around the globe. Logistics that are essentially assuming that we ll always be in a coalition so we can use their stuff.

The CAF needs to reduce the size of the Regular Force, probably by 15-20k personnel and deep cuts need to be made to Senior Leadership/Administration.

It needs to consolidate everything from infrastructure, number of bases, to number of units and formations.

It needs to then appropriately fund what's left over. The 45k members that are left over should be of the highest standard of fitness and given the best equipment and training money can buy.

We are never going to produce mass so we should be aiming for maximum quality.

 

[dimsum]

I disagree. The program has been wildly successful, thus far, as we will exceed our expectations and capability for intake.

I think the fundamental difference between your and @Humphrey Bogart 's viewpoints are where to draw the line at "success". I think you can be both right, in a way.

• Your (and presumably RCN NEP) measure of success is interest and enrollment
• His measure of success is how many end up doing a full-time contract beyond the NEP

 

[Halifax Tar]

The CAF needs to reduce the size of the Regular Force, probably by 15-20k personnel and deep cuts need to be made to Senior Leadership/Administration.

It needs to consolidate everything from infrastructure, number of bases, to number of units and formations.

It needs to then appropriately fund what's left over. The 45k members that are left over should be of the highest standard of fitness and given the best equipment and training money can buy.

We are never going to produce mass so we should be aiming for maximum quality.

Searching for a LPC or NDP riding nomination ?

 

[Halifax Tar]

I think the fundamental difference between your and @Humphrey Bogart 's viewpoints are where to draw the line at "success". I think you can be both right, in a way.

• Your (and presumably RCN NEP) measure of success is interest and enrollment
• His measure of success is how many end up doing a full-time contract beyond the NEP

Without doubt. The issue is the program itself doesn't expect a 100% follow on enrollment rate.

The idea is to get people in, expose them the to life at sea and if they wish the opportunity to continue; or leave.

Its a new way of looking at recruitment, don't aim for lifers.

 

[OldSolduer]

Jimmy Jones had charisma and his followers loved him for it, right to the end.

Flavor Aid not Kool Aid.

But you’re right about his charisma.

 

[dapaterson]

Interview with ADM May:

https://twitter.com/x/status/1649047461976211456

 

[JLB50]

Flavor Aid not Kool Aid.

But you’re right about his charisma.

Ok, Flavor Aid. Then maybe he got his charisma after drinking too much liquid during his “electric Kool Aid acid test”.