Informing the Army’s Future Structure

[MilEME09]

The counter point being that having them in Gagetown puts them much closer to ports if we did need to deploy them.

Counter point, CFB Wainwright and Suffield have railheads for quick loading and transport to a port.

 

[markppcli]

Counter point, CFB Wainwright and Suffield have railheads for quick loading and transport to a port.

Quick being a relative term when you're going from Alberta to the Ocean.

 

[MilEME09]

Quick being a relative term when you're going from Alberta to the Ocean.

It's just over 6H by rail from medicine hat to Vancouver, best search gets me about 4H from gagetown to Halifax. In the grand scheme of things, 2 hours isn't much.

 

[markppcli]

It's just over 6H by rail from medicine hat to Vancouver, best search gets me about 4H from gagetown to Halifax. In the grand scheme of things, 2 hours isn't much.

There's a port in St John though. So you could just drive them the 1.5 hours to the port. At which point there also much closer to Europe, which is where we expect to use tanks isn't it?

 

[Kirkhill]

And congratulations, we have just invented the Canadian Airborne Regiment.

All of this is pure posturing of course, if we can't decide what the army is for. If it is for force generating combat ready medium brigades, as SSE implies, then the light battalions are of course, useless -- unless we actually want a high-readiness light force, something that we possibly don't want, as we disbanded such a force in 1995 and haven't really missed it much. Light forces are something that the army hasn't been able to wrap their heads around over the course of the ensuing 25 years, so it's a hard argument that light infantry battalions without doctrine or supporting enablers bring something to the table that a LAV battalion temporarily stripped of its armoured vehicles can't provide. Especially if we insist on a 6-12 month road to war -- this is plenty of time for a LAV company to re-role to dismounted.

The bigger gaps are not organizational, they involve equipment. Self-propelled mortars, ATGMs, air defence, artillery that is not towed behind a truck. And we won't fix our equipment problem before 2025 -- so long as we treat purchasing a pistol as having the complexity of the Manhattan Project.

And we're back...

 

[Underway]

Finally something I know something about. It doesn't matter where you put them as long as there is rail. What's 3 days in a month-long deployment operation. Anywhere on the Pacific, it will take two weeks to sail somewhere, and anywhere on the Atlantic it's a week. And if it's further into the Med or Indian ocean we're looking at a longer timeframe.

*rough timelines...

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Actually, you also need a harbour that is equipped to efficiently load that type of equipment, and that means Montreal, Halifax or Vancouver. The other harbours would have to improvise. Also, I thought that was one of the main reason the main depot of oversea (read Europe) support was CFB Montreal. After all, sailing from Montreal or Halifax is a 36 hours difference, and as Underway mentioned, what's two or three extra days?

Personally, I think that the greatest delay, in any event, would be for the Army to get its gear (and arses) together, but I am quite happy to be proven wrong.

 

[markppcli]

And we're back...

If back means a high readiness light infantry force that can be sent around the world on shorter notice with less tail and 6 mechanized battalions each fully manned then I’m fine with it.

 

[suffolkowner]

Finally something I know something about. It doesn't matter where you put them as long as there is rail. What's 3 days in a month-long deployment operation. Anywhere on the Pacific, it will take two weeks to sail somewhere, and anywhere on the Atlantic it's a week. And if it's further into the Med or Indian ocean we're looking at a longer timeframe.

*rough timelines...

Yeah but if you want to cross the Pacific or Atlantic does it make sense to come from all the way across the country? It's an organization thing again as to how to set the various units. Are they going to be symmetrical or asymmetrical? Dispersed or aggregated? How and who are training where and with what? It's hard to believe we can't afford to keep them in Wainwright and Gagetown. We have 80ish tanks with 40 with the Lord Strathcona's Horse and 20 with the Royal Canadian Dragoons(where are the other 20?) while the Australians have their 59 over 5 locations

"The Army’s operational fleet of Abrams is held by Army’s three Armoured Cavalry Regiments in Adelaide, Brisbane and Townsville. Additionally, vehicles for training purposes are also held at the School of Armour in Puckapunyal and the Army Logistic Training Centre at Bandiana."

 

[GR66]

I think the point of a Light Battalion would be that it's air deployable. I guess from that sense Petawawa would be a good choice.

 

[markppcli]

Yeah but if you want to cross the Pacific or Atlantic does it make sense to come from all the way across the country? It's an organization thing again as to how to set the various units. Are they going to be symmetrical or asymmetrical? Dispersed or aggregated? How and who are training where and with what? It's hard to believe we can't afford to keep them in Wainwright and Gagetown. We have 80ish tanks with 40 with the Lord Strathcona's Horse and 20 with the Royal Canadian Dragoons(where are the other 20?) while the Australians have their 59 over 5 locations

"The Army’s operational fleet of Abrams is held by Army’s three Armoured Cavalry Regiments in Adelaide, Brisbane and Townsville. Additionally, vehicles for training purposes are also held at the School of Armour in Puckapunyal and the Army Logistic Training Centre at Bandiana."

20 I imagine are with our Bn worth of LAVs for deployments

 

[suffolkowner]

20 I imagine are with our Bn worth of LAVs for deployments

they're set aside just in case ready to go?

 

[Brad Sallows]

If LAV companies must dismount, presumably the requirements leading to it apply to everything else. So a bunch of other people must also re-role and a bunch of capabilities (equipments) must be exchanged for "difficult terrain" versions. Do we have those? Are there any differences (technical, doctrinal, experiential) which militate against simple re-roling and argue for dedicated users?

 

[MilEME09]

Yeah but if you want to cross the Pacific or Atlantic does it make sense to come from all the way across the country? It's an organization thing again as to how to set the various units. Are they going to be symmetrical or asymmetrical? Dispersed or aggregated? How and who are training where and with what? It's hard to believe we can't afford to keep them in Wainwright and Gagetown. We have 80ish tanks with 40 with the Lord Strathcona's Horse and 20 with the Royal Canadian Dragoons(where are the other 20?) while the Australians have their 59 over 5 locations

"The Army’s operational fleet of Abrams is held by Army’s three Armoured Cavalry Regiments in Adelaide, Brisbane and Townsville. Additionally, vehicles for training purposes are also held at the School of Armour in Puckapunyal and the Army Logistic Training Centre at Bandiana."

We don't have enough tanks to mam multiple Regiments. Awhile I agree one location could catch us off guard if we have to move then to the other coast, this can be mitigated by regularly practicing doing such a task. A split force means you'd get half our tanks to the fight and the rest 36 hours later. Might as well concentrate them and wait to get a whole Regiment in the fight at the same time.

 

[suffolkowner]

We don't have enough tanks to mam multiple Regiments. Awhile I agree one location could catch us off guard if we have to move then to the other coast, this can be mitigated by regularly practicing doing such a task. A split force means you'd get half our tanks to the fight and the rest 36 hours later. Might as well concentrate them and wait to get a whole Regiment in the fight at the same time.

So the 6 mechanized battalions will be wholly asymmetric then?

How is it that Australia can split their 59 tanks over 5 bases(?14,14,14,6, &6?) but we cant split our 82 over 2?

 

[GR66]

So something a little more like this?

 

[MilEME09]

So the 6 mechanized battalions will be wholly asymmetric then?

How is it that Australia can split their 59 tanks over 5 bases(?14,14,14,6, &6?) but we cant split our 82 over 2?

Given our current state ID argue they already are asymmetric. Trying to have our brigades apo be Swiss army knifes means they will be good at most tasks and masters of none. Australia may be able to split their force which ever way they want. We have ours split right now, they also are more efficient, doesn't mean a split force is the right way to go. Saying they can do it is fine, but does it actually work for them or are they doing it to justify keeping up those units and bases?

 

[Kirkhill]

And the assymetry is generated by a discussion about how to manage 20 tanks per brigade.

 

[Ostrozac]

And the assymetry is generated by a discussion about how to manage 20 tanks per brigade.

And 20 tanks per brigade is too few to actually give the effect associated with an Armoured Regiment. 20 tanks isn’t enough to generate shock action. At best, that’s an infantry direct fire support company, like the tank company of a Korean War-era US Regimental Combat Team. At worst, they are extremely expensive mobile pillboxes.

If we are to have tanks, then we need to mass them.

 

[Underway]

Yeah but if you want to cross the Pacific or Atlantic does it make sense to come from all the way across the country? It's an organization thing again as to how to set the various units. Are they going to be symmetrical or asymmetrical? Dispersed or aggregated? How and who are training where and with what? It's hard to believe we can't afford to keep them in Wainwright and Gagetown. We have 80ish tanks with 40 with the Lord Strathcona's Horse and 20 with the Royal Canadian Dragoons(where are the other 20?) while the Australians have their 59 over 5 locations

My point was it takes so long to ship a tank that unless you are doing it by air it really doesn't matter if it comes halfway across the country. What's a 5-day train ride from Edmonton to Halifax when it takes a month to prepare, pack and load the tank, train it to a port and then sail it to its destination, where you unload it and get it ready for use. The train ride time is almost a rounding error.

The other 20 tanks are at the Armour School in Gagetown for training purposes and one of each variant is also at the EME School in Borden.