Hamas invaded Israel 2023

[GR66]

There may have been hatred of Jews before in the middle east but it wasn’t as it is now. Clearly they were tolerated before Israel’s existence. Otherwise there wouldn’t have been a diaspora to move to Israel.

Are you serious???

From Wikipedia...but there are so many references to historical antisemitism that you could spend a lifetime reading about it

The first clear examples of anti-Jewish sentiment can be traced to the 3rd century BCE to Alexandria,

Statements exhibiting prejudice against Jews and their religion can be found in the works of many pagan Greek and Roman writers.

There are examples of Hellenistic rulers desecrating the Temple and banning Jewish religious practices, such as circumcision, Shabbat observance, the study of Jewish religious books, etc. Examples may also be found in anti-Jewish riots in Alexandria in the 3rd century BCE.

James Carroll asserted: "Jews accounted for 10% of the total population of the Roman Empire. By that ratio, if other factors such as pogroms and conversions had not intervened, there would be 200 million Jews in the world today, instead of something like 13 million."

In the late 6th century CE, the newly Catholicised Visigothic kingdom in Hispania issued a series of anti-Jewish edicts which forbade Jews from marrying Christians, practicing circumcision, and observing Jewish holy days. Continuing throughout the 7th century, both Visigothic kings and the Church were active in creating social aggression and towards Jews with "civic and ecclesiastic punishments",ranging between forced conversion, slavery, exile and death.

From the 9th century, the medieval Islamic world classified Jews and Christians as dhimmis and allowed Jews to practice their religion more freely than they could do in medieval Christian Europe. Under Islamic rule, there was a Golden age of Jewish culture in Spain that lasted until at least the 11th century. It ended when several Muslim pogroms against Jews took place on the Iberian Peninsula, including those that occurred in Córdoba in 1011 and in Granada in 1066. Several decrees ordering the destruction of synagogues were also enacted in Egypt, Syria, Iraq and Yemen from the 11th century. In addition, Jews were forced to convert to Islam or face death in some parts of Yemen, Morocco and Baghdad several times between the 12th and 18th centuries.

The Almohads, who had taken control of the Almoravids' Maghribi and Andalusian territories by 1147, were far more fundamentalist in outlook compared to their predecessors, and they treated the dhimmis harshly. Faced with the choice of either death or conversion, many Jews and Christians emigrated.

In medieval Europe, Jews were persecuted with blood libels, expulsions, forced conversions and massacres. These persecutions were often justified on religious grounds and reached a first peak during the Crusades. In 1096, hundreds or thousands of Jews were killed during the First Crusade..

In 1147, there were several massacres of Jews during the Second Crusade. The Shepherds' Crusades of 1251 and 1320 both involved attacks, as did the Rintfleisch massacres in 1298. Expulsions followed, such as the 1290 banishment of Jews from England, the expulsion of 100,000 Jews from France in 1394, and the 1421 expulsion of thousands of Jews from Austria. Many of the expelled Jews fled to Poland.

As the Black Death epidemics devastated Europe in the mid-14th century, causing the death of a large part of the population, Jews were used as scapegoats. Rumors spread that they caused the disease by deliberately poisoning wells. Hundreds of Jewish communities were destroyed in numerous persecutions. Although Pope Clement VI tried to protect them by issuing two papal bulls in 1348, the first on 6 July and an additional one several months later, 900 Jews were burned alive in Strasbourg, where the plague had not yet affected the city.

Martin Luther, an ecclesiastical reformer whose teachings inspired the Reformation, wrote antagonistically about Jews in his pamphlet On the Jews and their Lies, written in 1543. He portrays the Jews in extremely harsh terms, excoriates them and provides detailed recommendations for a pogrom against them, calling for their permanent oppression and expulsion. At one point he writes: "...we are at fault in not slaying them...", a passage that, according to historian Paul Johnson, "may be termed the first work of modern antisemitism, and a giant step forward on the road to the Holocaust."

During the mid-to-late 17th century the Polish–Lithuanian Commonwealth was devastated by several conflicts, in which the Commonwealth lost over a third of its population (over 3 million people), and Jewish losses were counted in the hundreds of thousands. The first of these conflicts was the Khmelnytsky Uprising, when Bohdan Khmelnytsky's supporters massacred tens of thousands of Jews in the eastern and southern areas he controlled (today's Ukraine).

Thousands of Jews were slaughtered by Cossack Haidamaks in the 1768 massacre of Uman in the Kingdom of Poland. In 1772, the empress of Russia Catherine II forced the Jews into the Pale of Settlement – which was located primarily in present-day Poland, Ukraine, and Belarus – and to stay in their shtetls and forbade them from returning to the towns that they occupied before the partition of Poland.

Historian Martin Gilbert writes that it was in the 19th century that the position of Jews worsened in Muslim countries. Benny Morris writes that one symbol of Jewish degradation was the phenomenon of stone-throwing at Jews by Muslim children. Morris quotes a 19th-century traveler: "I have seen a little fellow of six years old, with a troop of fat toddlers of only three and four, teaching [them] to throw stones at a Jew, and one little urchin would, with the greatest coolness, waddle up to the man and literally spit upon his Jewish gaberdine. To all this the Jew is obliged to submit; it would be more than his life was worth to offer to strike a Mahommedan."

In the middle of the 19th century, J. J. Benjamin wrote about the life of Persian Jews, describing conditions and beliefs that went back to the 16th century: "…they are obliged to live in a separate part of town… Under the pretext of their being unclean, they are treated with the greatest severity and should they enter a street, inhabited by Mussulmans, they are pelted by the boys and mobs with stones and dirt…."

 

[Eaglelord17]

You miss the point, South Africa still exists, Israeli would not.


Did you miss the actions of the Arabs since 1948?
Do you think Canada should return Quebec to France?


You can be free to believe what you want, the issue occurs when one tries to enforce that view on others, and loses, repeatedly…

And who has continually sabotaged it and refused that solution?


Seriously?

A nation would still exist where Israel is, whether it’s called Israel or not means nothing.

A more apt comparison would be returning land recently stolen from the natives back to them. Which we are legally starting to do thanks to the various treaties we dishonoured. What Israel is doing is colonization, just in the 20th and 21st centuries a hundred years after we learned it is wrong.

Did you miss the actions of the Israelis since 1948? About half the wars in the region over that time they started, they aren’t all defensive actions. Not to mention the illegal settlements and driving of/killing of Palestinians to take their homes and land.

Both sides have continuously sabotaged any attempt at peace over the last 70 years. More recently Israel has supported Hamas over the PLO because the PLO had a chance of forming a legitimate government and would have stopped Israeli expansion. Much easier to justify your actions when the other side is extremists.

Are you serious???

From Wikipedia...but there are so many references to historical antisemitism that you could spend a lifetime reading about it

Historical anti-semitism doesn’t mean genocide. My argument is generally they were tolerated in the arab world before Israel came into existence. Yes there was discrimination (as there was in the western world as well, if anything we treated them worse and thats ignoring the holocaust) but that isn’t straight up killing them.

Generally the way Arabs treated religious minorities was to tax them harder and give incentives to convert. They did discriminate against them but by and large they let them live their lives provided they weren’t trying to convert anyone. It’s only in the modern era that has changed.

 

[FJAG]

Are you serious???

From Wikipedia...but there are so many references to historical antisemitism that you could spend a lifetime reading about it

Just to round out the history of anti-Semitism one should recall the second rise of the Ku Klux Klan in America after DW Griffith's Birth of a Nation in 1915.

In addition to the Klan, Tyler and Clarke provided consulting services to the Anti-Saloon League and the Red Cross. Tyler believed the Klan needed to expand membership beyond the former Confederate states in order to attract sufficient recruits. It was Tyler’s belief that “racism didn’t sell in the North” and the Klan needed a wider audience. The expansion of enemies to include Catholics, Jews and particularly immigrants would be emphasized in the North and mid-west. The result of the marketing campaign would be the expansion of the Klan well beyond the former Confederate states of the first phase of the Klan into the mid-west and to a lesser extent, to the western states. The marketing concept of an extended list of enemies succeeded in the mid-west where distrust and dislike of immigrants had taken hold in the second half of the nineteenth century. ... It is estimated that as a result of the above factors, official membership in the Klan reached upwards of 5 million members by the mid 1920s. https://commons.lib.jmu.edu/cgi/viewcontent.cgi?article=1602&context=master201019

And that's just one example.

 

[daftandbarmy]

A nation would still exist where Israel is, whether it’s called Israel or not means nothing.

A more apt comparison would be returning land recently stolen from the natives back to them. Which we are legally starting to do thanks to the various treaties we dishonoured. What Israel is doing is colonization, just in the 20th and 21st centuries a hundred years after we learned it is wrong.

Did you miss the actions of the Israelis since 1948? About half the wars in the region over that time they started, they aren’t all defensive actions. Not to mention the illegal settlements and driving of/killing of Palestinians to take their homes and land.

Both sides have continuously sabotaged any attempt at peace over the last 70 years. More recently Israel has supported Hamas over the PLO because the PLO had a chance of forming a legitimate government and would have stopped Israeli expansion. Much easier to justify your actions when the other side is extremists.


Historical anti-semitism doesn’t mean genocide. My argument is generally they were tolerated in the arab world before Israel came into existence. Yes there was discrimination (as there was in the western world as well, if anything we treated them worse and thats ignoring the holocaust) but that isn’t straight up killing them.

Generally the way Arabs treated religious minorities was to tax them harder and give incentives to convert. They did discriminate against them but by and large they let them live their lives provided they weren’t trying to convert anyone. It’s only in the modern era that has changed.

Ironically the Ottoman Empire was a safe haven for Jews, where they were welcomed, unlike the rest of Europe where they were ruthlessly persecuted...

History of the Jews in the Ottoman Empire - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Interesting discussions on the effect on Hezbollah of yet another leader taken out and how it will effect political positions

 

[KevinB]

A nation would still exist where Israel is, whether it’s called Israel or not means nothing.

Except all the Jewish people there would be dead…

A more apt comparison would be returning land recently stolen from the natives back to them. Which we are legally starting to do thanks to the various treaties we dishonoured. What Israel is doing is colonization, just in the 20th and 21st centuries a hundred years after we learned it is wrong.

Okay so you have a clearly anti-Semitic leaning, but it isn’t like that whatsoever.

If any of the First Nations had decided to conduct an armed revolt or terror campaign against non Natives in Canada, what do you think the result would be?

What happened with the FLQ in Quebec and what almost happened at Oka…

Did you miss the actions of the Israelis since 1948? About half the wars in the region over that time they started, they aren’t all defensive actions.

Seriously?

Not to mention the illegal settlements and driving of/killing of Palestinians to take their homes and land.

This is your one shred of truth.

Both sides have continuously sabotaged any attempt at peace over the last 70 years. More recently Israel has supported Hamas over the PLO because the PLO had a chance of forming a legitimate government and would have stopped Israeli expansion. Much easier to justify your actions when the other side is extremists.

Hamas was supported by the people of Gaza.

Not much else in your diatribe was worth responding to as you tend to ignore anti Israeli horrors and place heavier emphasis on the Israeli transgressions

 

[brihard]

What happened with the FLQ in Quebec and what almost happened at Oka…

Add Gustafsen Lake to that. It gets way less attention because media were kept out, but it was absolutely wild. Thousands of rounds fired; it’s miraculous nobody was killed.

 

[KevinB]

Add Gustafsen Lake to that. It gets way less attention because media were kept out, but it was absolutely wild. Thousands of rounds fired; it’s miraculous nobody was killed.

Oh I've seen the absolutely shredded RCMP Suburban corpse and a Bison that was used as target practice too.
But it was smaller in scale that Oka, and none of the GL folks had ATGM's or M2's at their defensive positions.

 

[brihard]

Oh I've seen the absolutely shredded RCMP Suburban corpse and a Bison that was used as target practice too.
But it was smaller in scale that Oka, and none of the GL folks had ATGM's or M2's at their defensive positions.

Right on. Just pointing out this kind of militancy isn’t limited to Quebec.

The government and police have gotten smarter since Oka, etc- but the kindling is still there. Canada as a nation needs to still tread carefully. But I’ll step back and end the sidetrack.

 

[Eaglelord17]

Except all the Jewish people there would be dead…


Okay so you have a clearly anti-Semitic leaning, but it isn’t like that whatsoever.

If any of the First Nations had decided to conduct an armed revolt or terror campaign against non Natives in Canada, what do you think the result would be?

What happened with the FLQ in Quebec and what almost happened at Oka…



Seriously?


This is your one shred of truth.

Hamas was supported by the people of Gaza.

Not much else in your diatribe was worth responding to as you tend to ignore anti Israeli horrors and place heavier emphasis on the Israeli transgressions

You can have a nation encompassing all of Palestine/Israel (or two nations) and still have the Muslims and Jews (and others). Have it be secular, equal rights based instead of a apartheid ethno-religious state.

My question to you is from a Palestinian perspective why would they like the Israelis? At best they are actively holding your people back, at worst they are killing them. Israel should be working with them, educating them, raising them up, giving them a reason to like them instead of continuing a cycle of hate.

The first nations did fight various battles and wars with the Europeans, they just lost in the end each and every time. It took a couple hundred years to get them to the state they are in now.

You use Oka and the FLQ as examples of resistance in Canada, I will also use those as examples of how you defuse that resistance. We enacted constitutional changes to resolve Quebecs sovereignty issues, making them part of the system instead of working against it. With the natives, things have improved a ton over the last 70 years.

Not to mention we aren’t treating either group half as terribly as the Israelis are treating the Palestinians, thereby not creating the conditions needed for violent groups to thrive.

The reason I place emphasis on Israels actions is because Israel is the one in a position to change things (they work very hard to maintain total control). The Palestinians don’t really have much control over anything. Militarily they have next to nothing. Economically they have next to nothing. Politically they have next to nothing.

Demanding the Palestinians be the ones to bring in change is backwards, they can’t and therefore won’t.

Israel on the other hand can and should. Little steps like stopping their settlers, not arming and unofficially supporting their campaigns is a basic step. Trying to help educate, create jobs, rebuild, etc.

It is hard but it is necessary if they actually desire peace in the long term. The west has experience with this, we de-nazified Germany, but it was difficult and took a while. Thats the type of effort needed with Gaza.

For the record I am not anti-semitic, I don’t care for the Jewish religion but I don’t really care for any religion. If anything I am more against Islam than any other one. Disagreeing with Israeli actions doesn’t equal hating Jews. Many Israelis maybe Jewish, but not all Israelis are Jewish.

 

[PrairieFella]

You can have a nation encompassing all of Palestine/Israel (or two nations) and still have the Muslims and Jews (and others). Have it be secular, equal rights based instead of a apartheid ethno-religious state.

My question to you is from a Palestinian perspective why would they like the Israelis? At best they are actively holding your people back, at worst they are killing them. Israel should be working with them, educating them, raising them up, giving them a reason to like them instead of continuing a cycle of hate.

The first nations did fight various battles and wars with the Europeans, they just lost in the end each and every time. It took a couple hundred years to get them to the state they are in now.

You use Oka and the FLQ as examples of resistance in Canada, I will also use those as examples of how you defuse that resistance. We enacted constitutional changes to resolve Quebecs sovereignty issues, making them part of the system instead of working against it. With the natives, things have improved a ton over the last 70 years.

Not to mention we aren’t treating either group half as terribly as the Israelis are treating the Palestinians, thereby not creating the conditions needed for violent groups to thrive.

The reason I place emphasis on Israels actions is because Israel is the one in a position to change things (they work very hard to maintain total control). The Palestinians don’t really have much control over anything. Militarily they have next to nothing. Economically they have next to nothing. Politically they have next to nothing.

Demanding the Palestinians be the ones to bring in change is backwards, they can’t and therefore won’t.

Israel on the other hand can and should. Little steps like stopping their settlers, not arming and unofficially supporting their campaigns is a basic step. Trying to help educate, create jobs, rebuild, etc.

It is hard but it is necessary if they actually desire peace in the long term. The west has experience with this, we de-nazified Germany, but it was difficult and took a while. Thats the type of effort needed with Gaza.

For the record I am not anti-semitic, I don’t care for the Jewish religion but I don’t really care for any religion. If anything I am more against Islam than any other one. Disagreeing with Israeli actions doesn’t equal hating Jews. Many Israelis maybe Jewish, but not all Israelis are Jewish.

Get outta here with that reasonable take

 

[KevinB]

You can have a nation encompassing all of Palestine/Israel (or two nations) and still have the Muslims and Jews (and others). Have it be secular, equal rights based instead of a apartheid ethno-religious state.

My question to you is from a Palestinian perspective why would they like the Israelis? At best they are actively holding your people back, at worst they are killing them. Israel should be working with them, educating them, raising them up, giving them a reason to like them instead of continuing a cycle of hate.

Keep in mind how much money and effort the Israeli government pumped into Gaza to attempt to make it a viable Palestinian society. The Israeli goal had been to create a Palestinian nation there, and eventually attempt to relocate Palestinians from the WB there.

The first nations did fight various battles and wars with the Europeans, they just lost in the end each and every time. It took a couple hundred years to get them to the state they are in now.

My issue isn’t with battlefield losses or gains. One will never be able to reverse history, so one shouldn’t foolishly attempt to try to do that. The issue is when Governments welched on certain treaties, without appropriate compensation.

The term Indian Giving isn’t a slight against Natives (though many seem to think it is) the term came about from the empty promises that American and Canadian governments made to the First Nations.

You use Oka and the FLQ as examples of resistance in Canada, I will also use those as examples of how you defuse that resistance. We enacted constitutional changes to resolve Quebecs sovereignty issues, making them part of the system instead of working against it.

I would suggest that most of the Canadian constitutional changes have been anything but fair, and have ended up causing more issues that not for they have created several classes of ‘second class’ citizens and stripped rights and freedoms from
Canadians as opposed to granting them.

With the natives, things have improved a ton over the last 70 years.

Maybe for some bands, but many are in the same boat they were in 150 years ago, if not worse.

Not to mention we aren’t treating either group half as terribly as the Israelis are treating the Palestinians, thereby not creating the conditions needed for violent groups to thrive.

Many bands don’t have fresh water or indoor plumbing, so they can’t dig up the water lines like Hamas did to make rocket tubes

The reason I place emphasis on Israels actions is because Israel is the one in a position to change things (they work very hard to maintain total control). The Palestinians don’t really have much control over anything. Militarily they have next to nothing. Economically they have next to nothing. Politically they have next to nothing.

You seem to ignore everything that happened when Israel left Gaza to self administrate itself, hundred of millions of dollars of Israeli money went there.

Demanding the Palestinians be the ones to bring in change is backwards, they can’t and therefore won’t.

Then they can die.

Israel on the other hand can and should. Little steps like stopping their settlers, not arming and unofficially supporting their campaigns is a basic step. Trying to help educate, create jobs, rebuild, etc.

You need to separate Gaza from the WB.
Yes I think what Israel has done with the WB is wrong- Benny the Bulldozer has again encouraged that since his return - as it was being stopped previously

It is hard but it is necessary if they actually desire peace in the long term. The west has experience with this, we de-nazified Germany, but it was difficult and took a while. Thats the type of effort needed with Gaza.

Again Israel left Gaza, and funded its growth. Hamas got ‘elected’ and chose to attack Israel— so Gaza is reaping what it sowed.

For the record I am not anti-semitic, I don’t care for the Jewish religion but I don’t really care for any religion. If anything I am more against Islam than any other one. Disagreeing with Israeli actions doesn’t equal hating Jews. Many Israelis maybe Jewish, but not all Israelis are Jewish.

From my perspective, you seem to ignore certain aspects of what Israel has done for peace - and glossed over what the Arab world has done to Israel.

It’s a disaster there, and there isn’t a ‘good guy’, as Israel doesn’t have clean hands, but they are a lot cleaner than the Palestinians.
So I’m going to keep rooting for Israel, and hope they can make better choices towards victory - for they need to win.


Oh I think Benny the Bulldozer is a giant piece of crap - he’s not out for the best interests of Israelis / he just wants to cement his power and will continue war(s) to keep the people focused on that and not his criminal activities before and after 7 Oct.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Out here the term "Indian giving" relates to the potlatch tradition. Which the whites totally misunderstood. In a region with high dampness and most material made from short lived organic materials, there was no way to accumulate wealth like the Europeans did with metals. The potlatch was a form of distributed wealth and welfare, basically indebting the more powerful to providing goods and foods to you in the future, while assisting the lesser families and gaining status.

 

[OldSolduer]

"You can have a nation encompassing all of Palestine/Israel (or two nations) and still have the Muslims and Jews (and others). Have it be secular, equal rights based instead of a apartheid ethno-religious state."

Right and tell that to Iran, Hezbollah and Hamas. Good luck

 

[Good2Golf]

state.

My question to you is from a Palestinian perspective why would they like the Israelis? At best they are actively holding your people back, at worst they are killing them. Israel should be working with them, educating them, raising them up, giving them a reason to like them instead of continuing a cycle of hate.

You mean like when ‘they’ gave you fulll administrative control of your entire population in 2005, even providing your people with power and water treatment and political representation of your own government?

You seem to ignore everything that happened when Israel left Gaza to self administrate itself, hundred of millions of dollars of Israeli money went there.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

"You can have a nation encompassing all of Palestine/Israel (or two nations) and still have the Muslims and Jews (and others). Have it be secular, equal rights based instead of a apartheid ethno-religious state."

Right and tell that to Iran, Hezbollah and Hamas. Good luck

Islam is a political religion, the two are intertwined. The whole purpose of building a mosque on the only holy site in Judaism is to show power and control. If anyone thinks the Palestinians would allow Jews to pray there if they were in control, then they have no understanding of how Islam works. Particularly the modern radical Sunni Islam based on Wahhabism and Deobandism. People don't understand that the Arabs/Palestinians have and would create apartheid states, far worse than the one they want to replace.

 

[KevinB]

Islam is a political religion, the two are intertwined. The whole purpose of building a mosque on the only holy site in Judaism is to show power and control. If anyone thinks the Palestinians would allow Jews to pray there if they were in control, then they have no understanding of how Islam works. Particularly the modern radical Sunni Islam based on Wahhabism and Deobandism. People don't understand that the Arabs/Palestinians have and would create apartheid states, far worse than the one they want to replace.

Islam hasn’t really found its reformation point yet.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Makes eminent sense...

Israel Aims to Force Back Hezbollah Without a Ground War​

Israel has attacked Hezbollah in Lebanon every day for the past week — from commander assassinations to the destruction of missile launchers — in what officials say is an attempt to force the group to pull back from the border and stop its own rocket barrage.

Yet unlike the campaign against Hamas in Gaza, Israel’s goal is less about eliminating its enemy than forcing it into a retreat. That would prevent the need for a boots-on-the ground war and enable about 65,000 Israelis displaced from its northern border area to return home.

“We are destroying military infrastructure that Hezbollah has built over the past 20 years,” Israel’s top general, Chief of Staff Herzi Halevi, said on Monday. “Everything needs to be aimed at creating the conditions to return the residents of the north to their homes.”

For many Lebanese, efforts to achieve that goal have been catastrophic, with hundreds killed in air strikes and tens of thousands forced from their homes. Almost 500 people died on Monday alone, with 1,650 injured, in Israel’s heaviest bombardment on Lebanon since 2006.

That followed an attack last week in which thousands of pagers and walkie-talkies owned primarily by Hezbollah members in Lebanon exploded. Hezbollah and Iran blamed Israel, which neither confirmed nor denied responsibility.

Israel’s plan, at least for now, appears to be to stop short of a ground invasion, although officials say that hasn’t been ruled out. On Tuesday, Israel’s defense chief made a conspicuous show that its forces are ready to go there if needed.

Israel Aims to Force Back Hezbollah Without a Ground War

Israel has attacked Hezbollah in Lebanon every day for the past week — from commander assassinations to the destruction of missile launchers — in what officials say is an attempt to force the group to pull back from the border and stop its own rocket barrage.

www.bnnbloomberg.ca

 

[Halifax Tar]

Islam hasn’t really found its reformation point yet.

I'm not sure it has the ability to reform.

 

[OldSolduer]

I'm not sure it has the ability to reform.

The same may have been said about Christianity. Catholics and Protestants waged wars on each other for a very long time.