Hamas invaded Israel 2023

[daftandbarmy]

There is basically no conceivable circumstance where you can do this and not look like total shitheads. What an embarrassing lack of discipline and professionalism.

Conscript armies enter the chat...

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Israel investigates after its soldiers filmed throwing bodies off roof

The IDF says the incident does not "conform" to its values, while Palestinian officials say it is a "crime".

www.bbc.com

Israeli troops throwing people/bodies from a building by Jenin.

Really makes you question the professionalism of the troops as they wouldn’t be doing such actions if they didn’t feel they would be getting away with it.

I think a year of close quarter fighting after a horrific massacre of civilians and the constant barrage of rockets has hardened them and their GAF is -7

 

[dimsum]

I think a year of close quarter fighting after a horrific massacre of civilians and the constant barrage of rockets has hardened them and their GAF is -7

That may be true but it still doesn’t give them (or anyone) a pass on the Geneva Conventions, or Law of Armed Conflict.

 

[brihard]

That may be true but it still doesn’t give them (or anyone) a pass on the Geneva Conventions, or Law of Armed Conflict.

Yup. Just to be clear, the laws of war around treating the remains of the death with some semblance of dignity aren’t some wishy-washy neo-wokeism. They’re codified in the 1949 Fourth Geneva Convention, to which Israel became a state party in 1951. Israel’s own military regulations obligate the dead to be protected from abuse. That’s Israel’s own rules.

As I said, this is a failure at the unit level to uphold discipline and professionalism, and it makes them look terrible. That’s according to Israel’s own military rules, and a treaty it voluntarily signed.

 

[Eaglelord17]

I think a year of close quarter fighting after a horrific massacre of civilians and the constant barrage of rockets has hardened them and their GAF is -7

-7 or not there is a way to conduct yourself. Israels biggest international defence is that they try to be a professional army which has a accountable justice system. Both those things are being eroded.

The moment they let that go they will (and are as witnessed by the loss of support in Europe and the West) lose the means and capabilities which allow them to exist. They are walking a fine line and the farther they deviate from it them more likely they will lose everything.

Israel would not survive a blockade and sanctions such as what South Africa received under apartheid. If they keep going the way they are going it will become more and more likely.

 

[brihard]

Israel would not survive a blockade and sanctions such as what South Africa received under apartheid. If they keep going the way they are going it will become more and more likely.

Israel would need a major reversal in its relations with the U.S. for that to happen, but even at that it would survive. It would simply get really isolated and more ugly stuff would ensue.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

That may be true but it still doesn’t give them (or anyone) a pass on the Geneva Conventions, or Law of Armed Conflict.

Canadians gained a rep for not taking prisoners both in WWI and II. It certainly took a lot less for us to get to that point. While the politicians and General Staff in Israel wish to stay within the bounds. At some point the rigged game is going to cause the average solider and civilian to stop caring.

 

[dimsum]

Canadians gained a rep for not taking prisoners both in WWI and II. It certainly took a lot less for us to get to that point. While the politicians and General Staff in Israel wish to stay within the bounds. At some point the rigged game is going to cause the average solider and civilian to stop caring.

The Geneva Conventions came about in stages, and as @brihard alluded to, the 4th one was in 1949.

However, the “Geneva Suggestions” meme about the Canadian military is a black mark on us, not something to be celebrated.

 

[daftandbarmy]

The Geneva Conventions came about in stages, and as @brihard alluded to, the 4th one was in 1949.

However, the “Geneva Suggestions” meme about the Canadian military is a black mark on us, not something to be celebrated.

Bomber Command be like...

 

[dimsum]

Bomber Command be like...

There was a part in Masters of the Air where the show alludes to it, and the book discusses the “terror bombing”.

 

[daftandbarmy]

There was a part in Masters of the Air where the show alludes to it, and the book discusses the “terror bombing”.

If you have the time, definitely worth a (free) watch.

BTW, I'm a big Bomber Harris fan. So was my Dad (3rd Cdn Div in WW2)

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Bomber Command be like...

Very much the "Italian way of thinking"

Giulio Douhet - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[KevinB]

-7 or not there is a way to conduct yourself. Israels biggest international defence is that they try to be a professional army which has an accountable justice system. Both those things are being eroded.

Tossing dead bodies off a roof isn’t necessarily indignity to the dead. Sometimes it is just a necessity.

I don’t know the circumstances that lead to the video, nor what the tactical situation was on the ground during that video.

I’ve seen friendly force dead thrown off roof tops, simple to clear the area. Dead can be treated with respect after the situation stabilizes.

So I will reserve judgement on the actions in the video until more information comes to light.

The moment they let that go they will (and are as witnessed by the loss of support in Europe and the West) lose the means and capabilities which allow them to exist. They are walking a fine line and the farther they deviate from it them more likely they will lose everything.

Israel would not survive a blockade and sanctions such as what South Africa received under apartheid. If they keep going the way they are going it will become more and more likely.

You really don’t understand Israel.

Also keep in mind that they have nuclear weapons.

 

[MJP]

Tossing dead bodies off a roof isn’t necessarily indignity to the dead. Sometimes it is just a necessity.

I don’t know the circumstances that lead to the video, nor what the tactical situation was on the ground during that video.

I’ve seen friendly force dead thrown off roof tops, simple to clear the area. Dead can be treated with respect after the situation stabilizes.

So I will reserve judgement on the actions in the video until more information comes to light.

I agree to a degree and while I think it was a silly move, I can see cases where the local situation dictates certain actions being warranted. I did a handover in 2006 with the Pl/unit that caused an uproar by burning Taliban bodies in 2005. During the handover the dude insisted it was for hygienic reasons as the dead were literally were just laying around where the guys were going to be for the 24-48 hours and had already been dead for 24 hours in the heat. He also said he wished he hadn't done it as it hurt their credibility not only in that area but across the world as the news articles were not flattering. Strategic Cpl actions and all that jazz

 

[OldSolduer]

I think we tend to look at others actions (Israel, Bomber Command etc) through the lenses of our own experience and tend to judge them by our standards of today.
Just a thought...

 

[dimsum]

I think we tend to look at others actions (Israel, Bomber Command etc) through the lenses of our own experience and tend to judge them by our standards of today.
Just a thought...

Or, in the case of the Spartans, forget some aspects…

 

[Dana381]

We should not judge others till we have walked a mile in their shoes. Correct me if I'm wrong but I don't think anyone here has walked an inch in their shoes.
Many of you have seen combat, and awful shit. However you did so as part of a country that is relatively safe. Backed up by the U.S. and other very capable allies. Without having to worry about family back home having rockets fall on them.
Isreal is surrounded by millions of people, many of whom have sworn to destroy them. Including the Palestinians. Israeli soldiers are the ones tasked to prevent that. In WWII the allied soldiers were welcomed by the civilians they were liberating. These guys dont have that luxury.
Over the last 11 months they have likely been worked pretty hard and they are still in the firing line even when on leave. I imagine they are scared, exhausted and angry. Put anyone in those circumstances and they will crack. I know I sure couldn't do it and remain a gentleman.

 

[Halifax Tar]

You really don’t understand Israel.

Also keep in mind that they have nuclear weapons.

I think that was more of a statement of desire than prediction, IMHO.

 

[Edward Campbell]

If you have the time, definitely worth a (free) watch.

BTW, I'm a big Bomber Harris fan. So was my Dad (3rd Cdn Div in WW2)

Me, too. I get that a lot of people, including the Royals, didn't like Harris' very strong views on how to "make war," but he was anything but a war criminal and his methods worked and his targets were valid. The film suggests that the allied high command backed him while the fighting was going on but abandoned him as soon as public opinion became involved.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Me, too. I get that a lot of people, including the Royals, didn't like Harris' very strong views on how to "make war," but he was anything but a war criminal and his methods worked and his targets were valid. The film suggests that the allied high command backed him while the fighting was going on but abandoned him as soon as public opinion became involved.

Its funny how quickly things change when the shooting stops.