Hamas invaded Israel 2023

[brihard]

Israel is the greater good and must win this. These instances of crime need to and are being dealt with, hopefully harshly, to deter any future acts.

If anyone is really shocked there are isolated instances of atrocity by the "good guys" in a war, you fail to understand humans. The Israeli people are not cheering this on wholesale like Palestinians did on Oct 7th. Israel has been criticized from the beginning for it's "heavy handed response".

Horrific things happen in war - so avoid war at all costs. The handwringing can stop now.

How isolated this is doesn’t seem fully settled. There are other reports of prisoners there having needed amputations from abusive degrees of physical restraint. There’s enough smoke to warrant checking for a fire. That’s over and above the prisoner who was sodomized to the point of needing anal surgery.

While Israelis writ large have certainly not celebrated this event, a mob of people did force their way into and temporarily overrun at least part of an army base. They were cheered on, defended, and enabled by an extremist political party that forms prt of the country’s coalition government. This mob and these politicians support the soldiers under investigation for the sexual torture. So, it’s fair for those of us on the outside looking in to be concerned about what this means about the ethics and values of at least a significant enough chunk of Israeli society and a portion of their legislature and executive government. There’s no widespread celebration, but there certainly isn’t universal condemnation either, which there absolutely should be.

Trying to dismiss these concerns as mere ‘handwringing’ is beneath anyone in the profession of arms- at least in any country where the military purports to be professional.

 

[QV]

Some people are just not shocked anymore when outrageous things are done by professional militaries or institutions or horrible things that happen in civil society. That doesn't dismiss the act in any way. It dismisses the handwringing reaction to what is a likely outcome given the circumstances - ie: what did you expect? There always was a non-zero chance some splinter group will dish out an 'eye for an eye' response at some level during this shit show and the longer it went on the further from zero that chance became. Not surprising.

 

[brihard]

Some people are just not shocked anymore when outrageous things are done by professional militaries or institutions or horrible things that happen in civil society. That doesn't dismiss the act in any way. It dismisses the handwringing reaction to what is a likely outcome given the circumstances - ie: what did you expect? There always was a non-zero chance some splinter group will dish out an 'eye for an eye' response at some level during this shit show and the longer it went on the further from zero that chance became. Not surprising.

I expect a professional military not to allow the growth of an ethical environment in which a group of its soldiers decide it’s OK to sodomize a prisoner, and I expect mobs not to leap to the defense of those that do. That’s reasonable. This was a professional failing at levels far higher than just the section or platoon directly involved. Accountability flows up.

This isn’t a case of one or two bad apples who were alone and unsupervised. A whole group is under investigation, meaning enough others knew and it wasn’t stopped when it should have been (I.e., before a prisoner in secure custody was sodomized).

In the safe and secure confines of a base well away from the fighting, there is far less room to show understanding of gross criminal excesses.

 

[PrairieFella]

Let's not pretend that Israel is a shining city on the hill when it comes to human rights. These types of events have happened in the past and keep happening. Israel is vasstly superior on human rights to their neighbours but lacking by the standards of the West. Fuck Hamas and also fuck torture and the men who did this (and their superiors who probably knew about this). It's in our interest they win and survive but after this war there needs to be a reckoning on their actions which are going too far in a lot of ways.

I never did buy the "Greatest Allies of America" bit, your greatest allies don't bomb your ships.

 

[markppcli]

Some people are just not shocked anymore when outrageous things are done by professional militaries or institutions or horrible things that happen in civil society. That doesn't dismiss the act in any way. It dismisses the handwringing reaction to what is a likely outcome given the circumstances - ie: what did you expect? There always was a non-zero chance some splinter group will dish out an 'eye for an eye' response at some level during this shit show and the longer it went on the further from zero that chance became. Not surprising.

What do you mean “what did you expect” ? I don’t expect professionals to rape and torture people , nor do the Isrealis judging by their response. I sincerely hope you never find your self in a position of so authority in an operation.

Most of the people you’re accusing of “hand wringing” have been deployed to combat theatres, and put themselves in harms way. Some how none of us raped people.

 

[QV]

I mean that I expect during war there will be people who do horrific things that are not remotely legal. Ergo, not surprised. That state of mind in no way negatively impacts my personal morals and ethics, but has in fact made me more resilient to trauma.

Your sincere hope can be granted, I've already completed several operational tours in positions of authority with a successful record and I am now retired.

 

[KevinB]

I mean that I expect during war there will be people who do horrific things that are not remotely legal. Ergo, not surprised.

I can understand some excesses in the heat of the moment (not to condone them) - but this is after they have been taken into custody in a detention center. That is quite removed from a situation where surrendering soldiers are granted no quarter after a bloody messy fight.

That state of mind in no way negatively impacts my personal morals and ethics, but has in fact made me more resilient to trauma.

Your sincere hope can be granted, I've already completed several operational tours in positions of authority with a successful record and I am now retired.

Expectations set a bar for acceptance, and these sort of activities cannot be normalized or accepted.

Every time an egregious act is attempted to be explained away we lower ourselves as a whole.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Let's not pretend that Israel is a shining city on the hill when it comes to human rights. These types of events have happened in the past and keep happening. Israel is vasstly superior on human rights to their neighbours but lacking by the standards of the West. Fuck Hamas and also fuck torture and the men who did this (and their superiors who probably knew about this). It's in our interest they win and survive but after this war there needs to be a reckoning on their actions which are going too far in a lot of ways.

I never did buy the "Greatest Allies of America" bit, your greatest allies don't bomb your ships.

Around the same era Turkey bombed one of their own ships as well. Do you think we would be any better if Israel was made up of entirely Canadians living under the same circumstances, we would act the same or worse. The fact that Israel has had a very strong (until Oct 7th) peace movement willing to make significant sacrifices says a lot for the culture.

 

[QV]

These instances of crime need to and are being dealt with, hopefully harshly, to deter any future acts.

 

[OldSolduer]

I can understand some excesses in the heat of the moment (not to condone them) - but this is after they have been taken into custody in a detention center. That is quite removed from a situation where surrendering soldiers are granted no quarter after a bloody messy fight.

That is why MPs (who are supposed to be responsible for PW handling) take the PWs off the hands of whoever captured them to avoid atrocities.

Who was running the detention center?

 

[Remius]

That is why MPs (who are supposed to be responsible for PW handling) take the PWs off the hands of whoever captured them to avoid atrocities.

Who was running the detention center?

I read Force 100. Which are, i think, the MPs.

Not sure.

 

[Brad Sallows]

We shouldn't indulge in the bigotry of low or high expectations for societies and their governments. All should be held to one standard, just as all armed forces should be held to one standard. The standard we should prefer is the high one, which means we have to stop setting and tolerating low expectations, of anyone.

 

[QV]

Agreed Brad. However the world tolerates Hamas, a designated terror group, as the leadership of Palestine. We should expect (not accept) bad things to come of that.

 

[Quirky]

Israel has responded with an air strike on Beirut killing a hezbollah commander. More to come?

 

[The Bread Guy]

True, but that situation is a PR boon to Hamas and any anti-IDF organizations out there.

Not to mention hard-right ISR politicos (and their supporters) who want Bibi & Co. To go even harder than they have already. Don’t have to be lots to be heard/seen, as we can see.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Pretty quick to dismiss the rape and torture of some on held in custody. Frankly this can and will be a major talking point in the region, will be used as evidence to drive more pro Israeli regional powers, and will be a fundraising boon for Hamas

No one is dismissing anything. I just don't share the pearl clutching outrage that seems to have permeated this event on these forums.

War is dirty, and it makes otherwise good people do dirty things.

Israel has investigative services they will handle that. I'm fine leaving it with them.

I guarded Taliban prisoners in a detainee facility in 2011. I have friends that were killed by the Taliban. Somehow I managed not to rape and torture them. It’s very simple, you just don’t do that.

Congrats, there are lots of us on here who chewed that dirt shed those tears. And you're right I don't know of anyone who raped a Taliban member either.

Rape should never happen, but humanity is filled with evil. Violence and assault is a fact of the human condition, for some its more prevalent than others.

I also don't know anyone who served with us in the dirt who had first hand visceral events to the equivalent to Oct 7th as motivation for their fight.

 

[PrairieFella]

I also don't know anyone who served with us in the dirt who had first hand visceral events to the equivalent to Oct 7th as motivation for their fight.

You say that like 9/11 didn't have a profound psychological, emotional and social impact on all of the US and Canadian troops who went in initially (and for years afterwards) to the War in Afghanistan.

 

[Halifax Tar]

You say that like 9/11 didn't have a profound psychological, emotional and social impact on all of the US and Canadian troops who went in initially (and for years afterwards) to the War in Afghanistan.

I don't think comparing 9/11 and Oct 7 is a smart game to play.

Two very different scenarios and the comparison debate will go no where.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

What do you mean “what did you expect” ? I don’t expect professionals to rape and torture people , nor do the Isrealis judging by their response. I sincerely hope you never find your self in a position of so authority in an operation.

Most of the people you’re accusing of “hand wringing” have been deployed to combat theatres, and put themselves in harms way. Some how none of us raped people.

Sorry, but you can't 100% say that last line....

 

[brihard]

War is dirty, and it makes otherwise good people do dirty things.

War doesn’t make you force objects up a prisoner’s ass. That’s a choice, and I reject that someone who makes that choice was an ‘otherwise good person’.

“Great guy, other than the rape” isn’t a thing.