Hamas invaded Israel 2023

[GR66]

A couple Hamas commanders, one of whom reportedly their chief of staff for West Bank operations. Certainly a worthy target if true. Issue is, the civilian population there has been moved and evacuated time and again, and are crowded into extremely dense areas that the Israelis have essentially forced them to for lack of other options. When you target enemy leadership in a refugee camp, that’s a choice. In this case that means the world was quickly looking at a lot of video of badly burned bodies, and a distraught father holding what was left of a little girl with her head very clearly missing. Maybe I’m a bit swayed from how much time I spend holding my own child each day, but I hate seeing that shit, especially knowing that Israel is choosing certain ways to attack over others.

That kind of imagery has strategic consequences if you care what other countries and their populations think of you, which Israel to some extent still does. Both sides appear to consider the other guys’ civilian lives to be pretty expendable. It’s been a long time since I expected any better of Hamas, which is why I’m very at ease with Hamas being killed. Unfortunately Israel is showing less and less restraint and discipline as this goes on. Meanwhile another generation on both sides is getting radicalized against each other.

And the band plays on…

I think possibly a major factor behind the number of civilian casualties we're seeing in Gaza is the fact that Israel doesn't have enough troops to conduct a Clear/Hold/Build counter insurgency strategy. They are going into areas and clearing them but they don't have enough troops to hold them with the civilian population in place. And of course there is zero opportunity to "Build" if you're not holding.

The result is that civilian populations (with Hamas fighters among them) are shifted from area to area as the IDF is clearing sections but then are filtering back because Israel can't hold the terrain. In fact I suspect that they are actually making their job harder by moving the population out of the targeted areas. They are simply cramming more and more people into smaller areas so obviously the chance of collateral damage goes up when they strike legitimate targets in areas that are densely packed.

I totally get why the Israelis want and have the right to wipe out Hamas but I think they are quite possibly making the long term situation more difficult for themselves due to the level of casualties and physical destruction they are inflicting in Gaza. No idea what other options they have though really. The horrific attack by Hamas demanded a powerful response. I just don't know if in the end they may be making their future harder by further radicalizing an already radicalized population.

 

[brihard]

Palestinians could always tell Hamas fighters to get lost when they show up to refugee camps.

I mean, they could say that, yeah. I think that voids your life insurance policy over there.

 

[Rudburg]

I think possibly a major factor behind the number of civilian casualties we're seeing in Gaza is the fact that Israel doesn't have enough troops to conduct a Clear/Hold/Build counter insurgency strategy. They are going into areas and clearing them but they don't have enough troops to hold them with the civilian population in place. And of course there is zero opportunity to "Build" if you're not holding.

I don't think the Israelis see this as a COIN fight at all. They used to, but their opinions have changed since October. I think they view this war as existing much further along the spectrum of conflict, and something close to a total war. There are existential war aims on both sides, and that creates a situation where neither side wants to end the war before the other has been crushed.

I just don't know if in the end they may be making their future harder by further radicalizing an already radicalized population.

Maybe, maybe not. I'm not sure if it is possible for its enemies to become more radicalized. By and large I think opinions on Israel are mostly baked in.

I think the broader Israeli concern, over the long term, is that they have no shortage of security problems, and they need to "restore deterrence." I've seen this term used a few times by Israeli commentators, who point out that Israel's security relies on being able to deter its rivals from getting too bold. Deterrence requires both the capability to cause severe harm, and your enemies must believe that you are actually willing to follow through on your threats. Once deterrence has failed, as it did in October, the only way to restore it is to demonstrate conclusively that aggressors will pay a severe price. By this reasoning, defeating Hamas is an important goal, but it is also a means to a larger end - reminding its other rivals that the same thing will happen to them if they go too far.

 

[Jarnhamar]

I mean, they could say that, yeah. I think that voids your life insurance policy over there.

That's true. The IDF could "lose" some Aks in the refugee camps, maybe the Palestinians will rise up against Hamas. Especially with (block your ears abduly) Hamas using Gaznians as human shields.

 

[Quirky]

Any indications that gazans want hamas out? What do the polling numbers of 338Gaza.com say?

 

[Cloud Cover]

I don’t know if this the same strike at the DP camp, but the video I watched shows a number of good sized secondary explosions with projectiles flinging everywhere. Now I know from my own tossing of old paint cans into the burn pit that it could be anything, but was there also ammo dump, perhaps not even intentionally targeted by the IDF.

 

[abduly85]

That's true. The IDF could "lose" some Aks in the refugee camps, maybe the Palestinians will rise up against Hamas. Especially with (block your ears abduly) Hamas using Gaznians as human shields.

Hey, I have absolutely no issue with Palestinians rising against Hamas (or any other group or faction for that matter)... Let them pick their leadership and get their house in order.

But let's be honest, after the killing of 35,000 Palestinians by Israel and making over 17,000 children orphans... then some Aks gets "lost" by the IDF at the refugee camps (as you suggest), who do you think these kids will be aiming these Aks at when they grow up? It's the same cycle.

As some here mentioned already, the damage Israel is causing this time is generational, not just on the next Palestinian generation(s) but they have awakened a global movement from Tokyo to Cleveland (Even some posters here mentioned that their own kids showed support to the Palestinian cause... well its because they're seeing kids blown up live on their phones without the CNN/FOX narrative).
In a nutshell, the Palestinians are seeing this as the 1948 Nakba, except livestreamed and on steroids.

Everybody is going gung ho on Hamas being the obstacle to peace and the 2 state solutions, ok... But they only came to power in 2006/07, so what was the obstacle for the prior 60 years (1948 to 2006)? I guess the short answer is "the Palestinians" themselves .

Also, guess who was one of the biggest advocates for supporting and funding Hamas' rule in Gaza?? It's None other then the Prime Minister of Israel himself, Netanyahu!

In March 2019, Netanyahu told his Likud colleagues: “Anyone who wants to thwart the establishment of a Palestinian state has to support bolstering Hamas and transferring money to Hamas … This is part of our strategy – to isolate the Palestinians in Gaza from the Palestinians in the West Bank"

Another Israel news source (Yedioth Ahronoth):

Top Secret: In a 2018 letter, Netanyahu asks Qatar to fund Hamas

In letter seen by handful of people, PM urges Doha to deliver $30 million to Gaza monthly, claiming funding Hamas would preserve regional stability and avert humanitarian crisis

www.ynetnews.com

 

[brihard]

I don’t know if this the same strike at the DP camp, but the video I watched shows a number of good sized secondary explosions with projectiles flinging everywhere. Now I know from my own tossing of old paint cans into the burn pit that it could be anything, but was there also ammo dump, perhaps not even intentionally by the IDF.

Very distinct possibility, that’s the kind of thing the investigation will figure out. More broadly, it should be expected that when you keep hitting military targets of a force that fights with rockets and IEDs, secondaries are going to be a distinct possibility some proportion of the time. It’s very possible that Israel will have had no specific knowledge of explosives at the site of this strike; yet conversely does also know that often they are. You keep rolling the dice, sometimes they’ll come up a certain way.

Across the campaign as a whole, the civilian toll has been horrendous, and the sheer physical destruction is going to be a major barrier to restoring populations and their livelihoods in particular areas. Everything about the last several months will just continue to fuel the despair and desperation in Gaza. From a counterinsurgency standpoint, that’s not ideal.

 

[Jarnhamar]

Hey, I have absolutely no issue with Palestinians rising against Hamas (or any other group or faction for that matter)... Let them pick their leadership and get their house in order.

No doubt. They had 16 years to do a leadership change. They seem content.

But let's be honest, after the killing of 35,000 Palestinians by Israel and making over 17,000 children orphans... then some Aks gets "lost" by the IDF at the refugee camps (as you suggest), who do you think these kids will be aiming these Aks at when they grow up? It's the same cycycle.

If Hamas keeps using the kids as human shields they're probably not going to be aiming AKs at anyone in the future.

well its because they're seeing kids blown up live on their phones without the CNN/FOX narrative).

Why weren't they effected by the videos of hamas shooting kids?

But they only came to power in 2006/07, so what was the obstacle for the prior 60 years (1948 to 2006)? I guess the short answer is "the Palestinians" themselves .

You rekon Palestinians between 1948 and 2006 were a real peaceful bunch?

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Israel cannot resolve Palestinian grievances without cutting their own throats. Even if they gave up more of the WB, that will not satisfy the Palestinians. Israel gave up Gaza in 2005 and they got Oct 7th and 15,000 rocket for doing so. None of the countries pressing Israel, would do themselves what they are asking the Israelis to do, most of it is political pandering to a noisy minority.

The only way to resolve the Palestinian question is to force the Muslim States to accept Palestinians as immigrants with full citizenship rights. You can bet a large chunk of the population in Gaza and WB would leave if it meant being able to own land, work and have full citizenship elsewhere.

 

[abduly85]

The only way to resolve the Palestinian question is to force the Muslim States to accept Palestinians as immigrants with full citizenship rights. You can bet a large chunk of the population in Gaza and WB would leave if it meant being able to own land, work and have full citizenship elsewhere.

Yup, aka Ethnic Cleansing, or to make it sound better "Voluntary Migration", promoted by Israeli officials:

Israeli minister supports ‘voluntary migration’ of Palestinians in Gaza

Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich calls the move the ‘right humanitarian solution’. Critics call it ‘ethnic cleansing’.

www.aljazeera.com

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Yup, aka Ethnic Cleansing, or to make it sound better "Voluntary Migration", promoted by Israeli officials:

Israeli minister supports ‘voluntary migration’ of Palestinians in Gaza

Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich calls the move the ‘right humanitarian solution’. Critics call it ‘ethnic cleansing’.

www.aljazeera.com

All the muslim countries can start by compensating Jews who had to flee from their ancestral homes across the Islamic world. Also when you listen to even the average Palestinians, they want all the Jews gone, they aren't interested in sharing either. Oct 7th was just a practice for the main event.

 

[Kilted]

Well, the Gaza Strip is approximately the same size as Petawawa, The IDF has to try and manoeuvre around a population of 2 million people. No one is that good at Tetris. If only there were Arab countries nearby that they could go to.

 

[Eaglelord17]

Well, the Gaza Strip is approximately the same size as Petawawa, The IDF has to try and manoeuvre around a population of 2 million people. No one is that good at Tetris. If only there were Arab countries nearby that they could go to.

The IDF doesn’t have to do anything. As I have said before this war ends when Israel chooses to end it.

I would argue their right to self defence has already been met and exceeded. Israels border has been restored. Hamas has been decimated and is unable to effectively carry out attacks on their population. It will be many years before they have any sort of capability to do so again, if they ever get the conditions for a actual attack to succeed in the slightest. Carrying on isn’t actually for protecting their population, its for appeasing the extremists in the Israeli ranks.

"Netanyahu says the air strike in Rafah on Sunday was "a tragic mistake" and adds that it will be investigated"

Huh. Would be a pretty neat trick to know the outcome ("tragic mistake") before the investigation is started.

I don’t trust a single word out of that politician’s mouth. He understands the words to say to appease the west well speaking the opposite to his constituents.

I suppose thats the big difference between Hamas and Israel. Hamas doesn’t pretend they don’t want the Israelis gone. They don’t pretend anything they do wasn’t intentional. They don’t cover up how much of a POS they are.

‘Exterminate the beasts’: How Israeli settlers took revenge for a murder in the West Bank

Israeli settlers went on a violent rampage last month, inciting and co-ordinating attacks on WhatsApp.

www.bbc.com

 

[Rudburg]

Yup, aka Ethnic Cleansing, or to make it sound better "Voluntary Migration", promoted by Israeli officials:

Israeli minister supports ‘voluntary migration’ of Palestinians in Gaza

Finance Minister Bezalel Smotrich calls the move the ‘right humanitarian solution’. Critics call it ‘ethnic cleansing’.

www.aljazeera.com

In that case, what does "from the river to the sea" refer to?

 

[Good2Golf]

The IDF doesn’t have to do anything. As I have said before this war ends when Israel chooses to end it.

Just like in 2005.

 

[KevinB]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1795289439725633732

 

[KevinB]

I lol'd but it really isn't a laughing matter.

https://twitter.com/x/status/1794730207435190743

 

[KevinB]

https://twitter.com/x/status/1795016939200209044

 

[Jarnhamar]

The IDF doesn’t have to do anything. As I have said before this war ends when Israel chooses to end it.

After years of being ignored on the world stage Palestinians finally got a whole bunch of attention after a rape and murder spree in Israel on October 7th.

Israel calling off their mission to wipe out Hamas isn't going to make Hamas want to be peaceful neighbour's all of a sudden. They realize exactly what they need to do to get attention - murder jews then wait for civilians to get smashed when Israel retaliates.

Hamas has been decimated and is unable to effectively carry out attacks on their population.

They're still sending rockets into Israel.

It will be many years before they have any sort of capability to do so again

So give them time to rebuild? That's crazy.