A
aesop081
Guest
oligarch said:
Puttin runs Russia, no one else.
Georgia and the Russian invasions/annexations/Lebensraum (2008 & 2015)
- Thread starter Haggis
- Start date
Puttin runs Russia, no one else.
Hello; Some further implications and something to watch in the coming months: Ukraine-Russia tensions rise in Crimea
Residents of Sevastopol and the rest of the Crimean Peninsula have close ties to Moscow, and analysts say Ukraine could break apart if leaders push Russia away.
By Megan K. Stack
Los Angeles Times Staff Writer
September 28, 2008
SEVASTOPOL, UKRAINE — Skimming the Black Sea aboard a military motorboat, Russian navy spokesman Igor Dygalo turned to an entourage of television cameras. "The dirty ones, those are the Ukrainian ships," he said with a light smirk. "The clean ones are Russian."
Against a backdrop of simmering tensions, Dygalo led journalists on an unusual wide-ranging visit to Russia's Black Sea Fleet this month, complete with unprecedented access to the flagship Moskva, a guided missile cruiser.
The public relations tour came just as the strategically crucial Russian base here finds itself at the epicenter of an escalating political clash.
Alarmed by Russia's recent war in Georgia, the Ukrainian government has imposed new restrictions on the Russian ships' movements, and suggested raising the rent for the fleet.
The Ukrainian president has called the surrounding Crimean Peninsula -- historically a part of Russia and still home to a majority Russian population -- the most dangerous spot in the country because of separatist sentiment.
Russia has responded with icy vows to beef up its military forces in the Black Sea, eagerly showing off to reporters the firepower aboard vessels that were used to blockade Georgia -- and to remind the world of the deep Russian roots in this restive Ukrainian region.
"The military budget will be revisited so that we can exploit these ships better and build new ships," said Dygalo, aboard the Moskva. "The attitude toward the international situation has changed, of course. We understand quite well that Russia came under pressure."
Tensions have been climbing in this sleepy port since the fighting in Georgia brought into sharp focus two clashing interests: Russia's determination to take on a greater role in the former Soviet states, and the Ukrainian government's determination to join the North Atlantic Treaty Organization. The war in Georgia pitted a Western-friendly government against Moscow; meanwhile, Ukraine is painfully divided in loyalties to the West and Russia.
Crimea is Russian-friendly turf. Former Soviet leader Nikita Khrushchev gave the peninsula to Ukraine back when the shared flag made the distinction between the two countries relatively unimportant.
Many residents of Crimea say they are Russian first, Ukrainian second. They vehemently oppose Ukraine's bid to join NATO, bristle over anti-Moscow rhetoric from national leaders and say they are embittered by government efforts to infuse Crimea with Ukrainian language and culture.
Because of Crimea's staunch pro-Russia sentiments, analysts warn that the country could break apart if politicians in Kiev continue their push toward NATO and the West.
"Most threats from Ukraine don't come from outside, but from inside," said Vladimir Kornilov, a political scientist in Kiev. "Ukraine is living on its own volcano."
Critics accuse the Black Sea Fleet of deliberately exacerbating the tension.
"All the anti-Ukrainian, pro-Russia blocs are closely tied to the Black Sea Fleet," said Miroslav Mamchak, the snowy-haired chief of a group called the Ukrainian Community of Sevastopol. "They struggle against the Ukrainian language. They support the separatists."
Mamchak is a rare voice of Ukrainian nationalism here. He says that he has received death threats, and that Russian loyalists plastered the town with his picture under the slogan, "I'm a traitor to Russia."
Black Sea Fleet officials deny any political tampering. But many Ukrainians worry that Moscow is stealthily working to stir up separatist sentiment. There have been reports that Russia has quietly begun to grant passports to some residents; Russian officials say it's not true.
Powerful Moscow Mayor Yuri M. Luzhkov, who has been banned from Ukraine for his rhetoric on Crimea, has said the region "doesn't belong" to Ukraine.
Moscow and Sevastopol have long had close ties, and the Moscow city government has built schools and apartments in the Ukrainian city. One opulent school is decorated with stained glass depictions of Moscow, and a university is affiliated with Moscow State University.
Pro-Moscow residents regard Mamchak's political organization as part of a Kiev-backed effort at "ethnocide."
Many people here complain about the mandatory teaching of the Ukrainian language in schools and its use in the media and for government paperwork. Pro-Russia leaders also accuse the Ukrainian government of slowly moving people into the region from other parts of the country and installing pro-Kiev leaders in the city government.
"Faster, faster, faster to make everybody a Ukrainian," said Raisa Telyatnikova, head of the Russian Community of Sevastopol. "They want to completely distance us from our historical motherland, Russia, and turn it into an alien state. . . . They want to change the ethnic composition and break the spirit of Sevastopol."
With its clusters of war memorials and Soviet awards from Vladimir I. Lenin still adorning the walls of the town hall, today's Sevastopol has the feel of a living monument to the U.S.S.R., or at least to the power of Moscow. Russian flags flutter throughout the city, a statue of Catherine the Great looms on the main street and Russian is heard on most every corner. Bookstores stock a paltry number of Ukrainian titles. "It's only the language of state business," one bookseller said with a shrug.
Despite the fleet's warm ties with the locals, politicians in Kiev have made it plain that the Russian navy could be asked to leave after its lease expires in 2017.
Russia, however, has other ideas. The fleet's presence here is woven into history, Russian military officials say. The ships will stay put, and multiply, they have said repeatedly.
"Nothing prevents us from building up our forces here in Ukrainian territory," said Rear Adm. Andrei Baranov, the fleet's deputy chief of staff. "The fleet will be renovated. . . . New ships will be arriving here."
On the grounds of St. Nicholas the Sanctifier Church, the bones of an estimated 60,000 Russian fighters, casualties of the Crimean War in the 19th century and World War II, lie in a vast, quiet cemetery that rolls downhill toward the sea. On the steps of the sanctuary, priests spoke of their emotional ties to generations of sailors and of their unwillingness to hoist a Ukrainian flag.
In a scene that seemed cut from tsarist times, Russian navy officials and Orthodox priests sat at a long table, knocking back shots of vodka and proclaiming emotional toasts.
"The West shuddered 150 years ago when Russia showed its sword, and the Black Sea turned red with blood," said Igor Bebin, a pink-robed priest who rose to his feet, vodka glass held high.
"That was the supreme truth. And the truth is that now, for the first time, the sword of Russia is shining again. Be afraid of the sword."
The Russians cheered, and took a deep drink.
megan.stack@latimes.com http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-sevastopol28-2008sep28,0,4902782,print.story
Residents of Sevastopol and the rest of the Crimean Peninsula have close ties to Moscow, and analysts say Ukraine could break apart if leaders push Russia away.
By Megan K. Stack
Los Angeles Times Staff Writer
September 28, 2008
SEVASTOPOL, UKRAINE — Skimming the Black Sea aboard a military motorboat, Russian navy spokesman Igor Dygalo turned to an entourage of television cameras. "The dirty ones, those are the Ukrainian ships," he said with a light smirk. "The clean ones are Russian."
Against a backdrop of simmering tensions, Dygalo led journalists on an unusual wide-ranging visit to Russia's Black Sea Fleet this month, complete with unprecedented access to the flagship Moskva, a guided missile cruiser.
The public relations tour came just as the strategically crucial Russian base here finds itself at the epicenter of an escalating political clash.
Alarmed by Russia's recent war in Georgia, the Ukrainian government has imposed new restrictions on the Russian ships' movements, and suggested raising the rent for the fleet.
The Ukrainian president has called the surrounding Crimean Peninsula -- historically a part of Russia and still home to a majority Russian population -- the most dangerous spot in the country because of separatist sentiment.
Russia has responded with icy vows to beef up its military forces in the Black Sea, eagerly showing off to reporters the firepower aboard vessels that were used to blockade Georgia -- and to remind the world of the deep Russian roots in this restive Ukrainian region.
"The military budget will be revisited so that we can exploit these ships better and build new ships," said Dygalo, aboard the Moskva. "The attitude toward the international situation has changed, of course. We understand quite well that Russia came under pressure."
Tensions have been climbing in this sleepy port since the fighting in Georgia brought into sharp focus two clashing interests: Russia's determination to take on a greater role in the former Soviet states, and the Ukrainian government's determination to join the North Atlantic Treaty Organization. The war in Georgia pitted a Western-friendly government against Moscow; meanwhile, Ukraine is painfully divided in loyalties to the West and Russia.
Crimea is Russian-friendly turf. Former Soviet leader Nikita Khrushchev gave the peninsula to Ukraine back when the shared flag made the distinction between the two countries relatively unimportant.
Many residents of Crimea say they are Russian first, Ukrainian second. They vehemently oppose Ukraine's bid to join NATO, bristle over anti-Moscow rhetoric from national leaders and say they are embittered by government efforts to infuse Crimea with Ukrainian language and culture.
Because of Crimea's staunch pro-Russia sentiments, analysts warn that the country could break apart if politicians in Kiev continue their push toward NATO and the West.
"Most threats from Ukraine don't come from outside, but from inside," said Vladimir Kornilov, a political scientist in Kiev. "Ukraine is living on its own volcano."
Critics accuse the Black Sea Fleet of deliberately exacerbating the tension.
"All the anti-Ukrainian, pro-Russia blocs are closely tied to the Black Sea Fleet," said Miroslav Mamchak, the snowy-haired chief of a group called the Ukrainian Community of Sevastopol. "They struggle against the Ukrainian language. They support the separatists."
Mamchak is a rare voice of Ukrainian nationalism here. He says that he has received death threats, and that Russian loyalists plastered the town with his picture under the slogan, "I'm a traitor to Russia."
Black Sea Fleet officials deny any political tampering. But many Ukrainians worry that Moscow is stealthily working to stir up separatist sentiment. There have been reports that Russia has quietly begun to grant passports to some residents; Russian officials say it's not true.
Powerful Moscow Mayor Yuri M. Luzhkov, who has been banned from Ukraine for his rhetoric on Crimea, has said the region "doesn't belong" to Ukraine.
Moscow and Sevastopol have long had close ties, and the Moscow city government has built schools and apartments in the Ukrainian city. One opulent school is decorated with stained glass depictions of Moscow, and a university is affiliated with Moscow State University.
Pro-Moscow residents regard Mamchak's political organization as part of a Kiev-backed effort at "ethnocide."
Many people here complain about the mandatory teaching of the Ukrainian language in schools and its use in the media and for government paperwork. Pro-Russia leaders also accuse the Ukrainian government of slowly moving people into the region from other parts of the country and installing pro-Kiev leaders in the city government.
"Faster, faster, faster to make everybody a Ukrainian," said Raisa Telyatnikova, head of the Russian Community of Sevastopol. "They want to completely distance us from our historical motherland, Russia, and turn it into an alien state. . . . They want to change the ethnic composition and break the spirit of Sevastopol."
With its clusters of war memorials and Soviet awards from Vladimir I. Lenin still adorning the walls of the town hall, today's Sevastopol has the feel of a living monument to the U.S.S.R., or at least to the power of Moscow. Russian flags flutter throughout the city, a statue of Catherine the Great looms on the main street and Russian is heard on most every corner. Bookstores stock a paltry number of Ukrainian titles. "It's only the language of state business," one bookseller said with a shrug.
Despite the fleet's warm ties with the locals, politicians in Kiev have made it plain that the Russian navy could be asked to leave after its lease expires in 2017.
Russia, however, has other ideas. The fleet's presence here is woven into history, Russian military officials say. The ships will stay put, and multiply, they have said repeatedly.
"Nothing prevents us from building up our forces here in Ukrainian territory," said Rear Adm. Andrei Baranov, the fleet's deputy chief of staff. "The fleet will be renovated. . . . New ships will be arriving here."
On the grounds of St. Nicholas the Sanctifier Church, the bones of an estimated 60,000 Russian fighters, casualties of the Crimean War in the 19th century and World War II, lie in a vast, quiet cemetery that rolls downhill toward the sea. On the steps of the sanctuary, priests spoke of their emotional ties to generations of sailors and of their unwillingness to hoist a Ukrainian flag.
In a scene that seemed cut from tsarist times, Russian navy officials and Orthodox priests sat at a long table, knocking back shots of vodka and proclaiming emotional toasts.
"The West shuddered 150 years ago when Russia showed its sword, and the Black Sea turned red with blood," said Igor Bebin, a pink-robed priest who rose to his feet, vodka glass held high.
"That was the supreme truth. And the truth is that now, for the first time, the sword of Russia is shining again. Be afraid of the sword."
The Russians cheered, and took a deep drink.
megan.stack@latimes.com http://www.latimes.com/news/nationworld/world/la-fg-sevastopol28-2008sep28,0,4902782,print.story
JackD said:
LAWL... funny because its true. But seriously, the Big Treaty of Friendship, Cooperation, and Partnership was renewed for another 10 years, with the treaty, Moscow recognizes Ukraine's borders and territorial integrity, and accepts Ukraine's sovereignty over Crimea and Sevastopol. Further, Russia doesn't need Crimea to seperate... we can already enter Crimea with our Russian passports and can freely vacation there. It's a really nice place and I'm hoping to drop by next summer!
A
aesop081
Guest
oligarch said:
How did you establish i have not been there ?
Elighten me, please ?
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oligarch said:
Dear Mr Oligarch,
I've pretty much stayed off this thread, and the one SIMPLE question I asked you earlier, well never got an answer. I was not suprised.
So here is yet another SIMPLE question.
Its so obvious that you seem to have an intense passion for Russia, seeming to believe they can do no wrong, and are superior to all around them, yet I wonder why you choose to stay in Canada if you are so much in love with the perfect Russian world?
Care to respond, or will your arrogance shine through yet again.
I do hope you can find the time in such a busy world to POLITELY respond.
Thanking you in advance,
OWDU
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If the US economy contracts by 80% the per capita GDP will be equal to that of Russia. During the depression period of 1929-33 unemployment rose from 3 to 25 percent as the nation's output fell over 25 percent and prices over 30 percent, in what has been called the Great Contraction. Adjusting spending to reflect less money and so a smaller budget might be a big change but most of the world spends less anyway. Borrowing money to fuel growth is good unless you get carried away and then the crunch comes and you regress. Borrowing money to fuel consumption is allways folly - there is no growth to offset future repayments and the crunch comes a lot faster as a result.
The US borrowed far too much to fuel both growth and consumption and now a crunch has come. How large and how long it will last is hard to tell at the moment and depends on how much the rest of the world did the same. So far growth has slowed but not gone negative but recent credit market problems seem to indicate negative growth may be coming.
The US borrowed far too much to fuel both growth and consumption and now a crunch has come. How large and how long it will last is hard to tell at the moment and depends on how much the rest of the world did the same. So far growth has slowed but not gone negative but recent credit market problems seem to indicate negative growth may be coming.
Overwatch Downunder said:
You're welcome. I didn't answer your last question because your question was "your agenda seems to be one sided". I am surprised that you are surprised that my agenda is one sided, since pretty much everyone involved in a debate will have a one sided agenda. I can say that about many on this board supporting "the other side", like yourself. So I didn't feel the need to respond to this absurd assumption that a "one sided" agenda is somehow a wrong one, and thought it would be better for all if I just moved on.
Your second assumption, that I must live in Russia because I support the actions of this Russian government is not proper argument once again. It seems you are saying that I must live in the country who's government I support, and vice versa. What if I move to Russia and there is a change in government where, god forbid, Kasparov overthrows Putin by some undemocratic [insert colour here] revolution? Must I find another country to live in once again? Belarus? It seems to me that you are supporting your government to justify you living here. Isn't disagreement at the essence of democracy? Many on here claim that Russia is undemocratic, but when I excercise my democratic right as a Canadian to voice an opinion that's not commonplace I am bombarded by personal attacks, so where is the democracy here?
If you could not understand what I said, you could try reading the post again very carefully. I'm sure you will be able to figure it out. If you really can't and need help, you couldn't contacted me by PM and I would have been glad to write a simpler worded statement for you. However, I saw an agenda in your ... ehm... "question", and didn't feel the need to respond.
I am not arrogant by any means. If I was arrogant I would just be above such internet boards and I would not even think to try to convince people on here of anything. But when I go on this board and see things that are just plain wrong, I tend to want to state otherwise. Wouldn't anyone?
In regard to my assumption that CND Aviator has never been to Russia, I just had a feeling. However, I should not have done so, and my apologies are put forth if I came accross as offensive. Aviator, I didn't mean to sound arrogant, I just got a little agitated from hearing this unfounded point and I should've controlled my emotions better. I will try to keep the discussion focused on the argument at hand rather than let it get personal in the future. Its just that there has been so many personal attacks on me that I could not resist the temptation. Let me do this properly. Why do you think Putin is still running things? Perhaps he still has some power, seeing as he is Prime Minister, but would you not agree that he is running different things than before? And did you mean to imply that there is something wrong with Putin continuing to run "some" things after a presidential term in the form of a Prime Minister? Is it hence, your assertion, that after a presidential term an individual must never be in politics again?
Cheers !!!
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oligarch said:
Comforting, just like the old Article 72: "Each Union Republic shall retain the right freely to secede from the USSR".... and yes, I know Russia isn't the USSR.
Blackadder1916
Army.ca Fixture
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If you are going to use a news article from a source of questionable impartiality (to many on this means), it might be best to relate it to what the PACE delegation actually reported.
Here are some extracts (emphasis added are mine) from the memorandum prepared by Mr Luc Van den Brande (Belgium, EPP/CD), Chairperson of the Ad hoc Committee of the Bureau of the Assembly. The initial part of the memorandum (which I've redacted) deals with the mechanics of the committee's visit and their discussion about the causes of the outbreak of the war, which mostly boils down to "he said, he said". There is, however, enough recrimination to go around.
The situation on the ground in Russia and Georgia in the context of the war between those countries
http://assembly.coe.int//Main.asp?link=http://assembly.coe.int/Documents/WorkingDocs/doc08/edoc11720add2.htm
And this from a previous mission report.
http://assembly.coe.int//Main.asp?link=http://assembly.coe.int/Documents/WorkingDocs/doc08/edoc11720.htm
Here are some extracts (emphasis added are mine) from the memorandum prepared by Mr Luc Van den Brande (Belgium, EPP/CD), Chairperson of the Ad hoc Committee of the Bureau of the Assembly. The initial part of the memorandum (which I've redacted) deals with the mechanics of the committee's visit and their discussion about the causes of the outbreak of the war, which mostly boils down to "he said, he said". There is, however, enough recrimination to go around.
The situation on the ground in Russia and Georgia in the context of the war between those countries
http://assembly.coe.int//Main.asp?link=http://assembly.coe.int/Documents/WorkingDocs/doc08/edoc11720add2.htm
And this from a previous mission report.
http://assembly.coe.int//Main.asp?link=http://assembly.coe.int/Documents/WorkingDocs/doc08/edoc11720.htm
Blackadder1916 said:
I posted an article and the source, if you want to do your own research, you have all the resources you need. I just used google news scanner for "South Ossetia, PACE".
If everyone had to do a lot of analysis on news from a source of questionable impartiality, then I condend that many would have to redraft their post of BBC and CNN articles.
For more on media impartiality, see this book: http://www.amazon.com/Manufacturing-Consent-Political-Economy-Media/dp/0375714499
- Reaction score
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Looking north a bit....
North Ossetia police chief shot dead
RIA Novosti, 1 Oct 08
Article link
Ringleader of ''CID of MIA of North Ossetia'' eliminated
Kavkazcenter.com (known to post Chechen propaganda), 1 Oct 08
Article link
More on link
North Ossetia police chief shot dead
RIA Novosti, 1 Oct 08
Article link
Ringleader of ''CID of MIA of North Ossetia'' eliminated
Kavkazcenter.com (known to post Chechen propaganda), 1 Oct 08
Article link
More on link
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....or getting a bit of payback?
this seems to be the place to watch now - especially with the break-up of the col lition governing the Ukraine right now:
CRIMEAN POWER STRUGGLE
Russia and Ukraine Jockey in the Black Sea
By Walter Mayr
The naval fleets of Russia and Ukraine share the port at Sevastopol on the Crimean Peninsula. Some in Russia would like the Ukrainian city to return to the Russian fold. Many fear that a spark here could quickly lead to a larger conflagration.
It is early morning deep inside the missile cruiser Moskva, where the heat and the stench of diesel fuel are the most oppressive, as the lower ranks emerge from their five-bed cabins. Below decks, the flagship of the Russian Black Sea fleet feels like a prison tract with cell walls made of gray-painted steel.
The sailors march up the stairs for morning roll call. At 7:43 a.m. sharp, officers and seamen stand at attention on the upper deck, in rows three deep, between cigar-shaped missile shafts and launching pads for anti-aircraft missiles, while the division commander inspects the formation. "We salute the Comrade Rear Admiral," the troops shout. The commanding officer replies: "At ease."
Here on Quay 14 in Sevastopol's Holland Harbor, the Russian navy is ready for battle once again, at least judging by what Rear Admiral Andrei Baranov, the deputy commander of the Russian Black Sea fleet, has to say. The recent operation in Georgian waters was a brief act of "self-defense," says Baranov, adding that additional combat missions are not on the agenda at this point. Nevertheless, he is quick to add, the Black Sea has undoubtedly become a "hot spot", and "we are, of course, obligated to protect our citizens in case of emergency."
The rear admiral chooses precisely the same words Moscow used to justify its August combat operations in Georgia. According to the Russians, citizens in the separatist regions of Abkhazia and South Ossetia, who had been issued Russian passports beforehand, required "protection" against Georgian aggression. But in the port city of Sevastopol, on Ukraine's Crimean Peninsula, the situation is more complex. Close to three-quarters of the city's residents and about half of the Crimean population are ethnic Russians, but most are Ukrainian citizens.
Facilitating Naturalization
Rumors have been swirling in the Crimea that Russian passports are being issued on a grand scale. The chairwoman of the "Russian Community" in Sevastopol thinks there could be as many as 50,000 Russian citizens in the city, a figure that officials at the Russian consulate deny. Last Monday, the upper house of the Russian parliament complicated matters even further when it adopted legislation facilitating the naturalization of ethnic Russian citizens of other countries, of which there are up to eight million in Ukraine alone.
Sevastopol, a naval base for 14,000 members of the Russian Black Sea fleet, is already a Moscow enclave of sorts, a sharp thorn in the side of Ukraine, an independent country since 1991. The city became Russian under Czarina Catherine II, and it remained that way until Soviet Communist Party leader Nikita Khrushchev, in the context of an exchange of territory, awarded the entire Crimea to the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic in 1954 as a "gift." When the Black Sea fleet was split apart in 1997, Sevastopol became home to both a Russian and a Ukrainian naval unit. The Russian lease expires in May 2017.
Tension between the two countries has been high, though speculation that the Russian-Ukraine treaty on friendship -- which guarantees the current borders between the two countries and peaceful coexistence -- proved unfounded. The treaty was extended for another 10 years this week.
In the run up to the decision, however, many had thought new conditions would be introduced into the pact or that the treaty would be cancelled altogether. "If we lose Sevastopol, we lose the entire Caucasus," said Moscow Mayor Yuri Luzhkov, who wants the treaty jettisoned and the port city brought back into the Russian fold. As a mouthpiece of militancy and a sponsor of the Russian diaspora in the Crimea, Luzhkov has served as the Kremlin's watchdog for years. Ukrainian President Viktor Yushchenko, on the other hand, weakened by the renewed collapse of his governing coalition, has made it clear that he prefers to see the Russian navy leave his country sooner rather than later.
From on board the Moskva, it is easy to recognize why. A tiny spark in the harbor of Sevastopol could result in a much larger political conflagration. Ash-gray steel colossuses flying the Russian and Ukrainian flags are docked next to each other, the Alrosa, a Russian submarine, bobs nearby and, in the middle of it all, there is the visiting USNS Pathfinder, an American naval reconnaissance ship.
Expensive Evaporated Milk
For the Russians in Sevastopol, the US Navy's claim that the ship is here to search for World War II wrecks on the Black Sea floor is difficult to believe -- as are other US Navy claims. A Russian captain on board the Moskva says derisively: "The Americans are supposedly bringing evaporated milk to Georgia with their warships. That would be the world's most expensive evaporated milk."
NATO ships at anchor in the harbor of Sevastopol, the "City of Heroes," trigger old reflexes among those Russians who have always seen themselves as surrounded by their enemies. In pro-Moscow newspapers on the peninsula, Cossack groups and the backrooms of political incendiaries, there has recently been talk of an upcoming "third defense" of the city. After heroic losses in the 19th-century Crimean War and later against Nazi Germany, the Crimea's ethnic Russians now see themselves about to embark on a new form of defensive action: against the political leadership in Ukraine, which is seeking to join the NATO alliance.
When it comes to the Crimea and Sevastopol, the Russians believe that it is their mission to save more than just a fleet base, but also a miniature version of Russia. The seaside city is graced with cedar and acacia trees, a bronze statue of Lenin in front of the St. Vladimir Cathedral, elegant officers' clubs, nightly skating exhibitions featuring long-legged beauties on the piers and Russian pop music under a starry sky.
"The Crimea was everything that Russia was not: the south and freedom, a foreign place on the territory of the Russian empire," writes Karl Schlögel, an expert on Russia and Eastern Europe. The Crimea, a refuge for the aristocracy since the days of czars and dubbed the "red Riviera" during the Soviet era, occupies a fixed place in the collective Russian memory, he says. "Dream landscapes are more stable than countries, and the maps in people's heads continue to exist long after new borders have been drawn," says Schlögel.
'No Peaceful Solution'
The borders in favor of Ukraine were drawn here decades ago. But the voices that insist on Russia having an inalienable right to the Crimea are only beginning to grow today. Is it true, then, as Ukrainian government politicians claim, that a repeat of the bloody "Georgian scenario" could take place on Crimean soil?
"There can be no peaceful solution. But the price of a forceful disengagement of the Crimea from Ukraine would be high: War against a sister nation," says a thin Russian officer who has agreed to meet in a discreet outdoor restaurant in Sevastopol. The man, who wishes to be called Viktor Kalugin, for his own protection, is familiar with the combat readiness of his country's military. He was on the ship that sank the Georgi Toreli, a Georgian coast guard vessel, off the coast of Abkhazia on the evening of Aug. 9.
The Russian Flag for the Crimea?
"War is war, and an officer must execute the commands he is given," says Kalugin -- even when his men are marching against a former sister nation, as in the case of Georgia. "We didn't even know where we were going when we received our orders to deploy" says Kalugin. "We tried to keep up with the events by watching the news on television. But there was poor reception on the water. Even our commander knew nothing."
Would Kalugin be as obedient a soldier if he were fighting Russia's Ukrainian neighbors? He prefers not to think about it. He has served in the navy since the latter days of the Soviet era, and he has gone to wherever he was sent. He still drinks vodka with former colleagues who are now serving with the Ukrainian Black Sea fleet, but they never discuss politics. Kalugin, a high-ranking naval officer, has a fervent wish, which he keeps to himself on those evenings spent with the Ukrainians: That the Russian flag will soon fly "over, not just Sevastopol, but the entire Crimea."
In Sevastopol, just as in many once-closed cities of the vast former Soviet Union, some things have remained unchanged. Dubbed the "last bastion" while under Soviet control, and so strictly shielded that it was off-limits to foreigners until 1996, Sevastopol is a place where paranoia and xenophobic propaganda flourish like seedlings in a greenhouse. The toxic seeds planted by both sides since the 2004 Ukrainian revolution and Kiev's change of course have finally borne fruit.
Nightly Vigils
The port city's newspapers, with names like Last Bastion and Legendary Sevastopol, are increasingly filled with alarming reports of a near-collision between the missile cruiser Moskva and a Ukrainian naval vessel in Sevastopol Bay, Russian activists protesting at one of the city's breakwaters, clashes with the police, the destruction of a plaque commemorating the first warship to sail under the Ukrainian flag, protests by Ukrainians against a new memorial to Czarina Catherine II on Lenin Street and subsequent nightly vigils by Russian volunteers at the site.
After 1991, centuries of common history were shattered and the wreckage reassembled. The image that resulted on the one side is dominated by primarily Ukrainian-speaking freedom fighters, military commanders and poets. But there is mounting anger on the other side, among the once-dominant Russians: over issues like the removal of Russian stations from the cable TV lineup, university lectures in Ukrainian and schoolbooks in which, more recently, Russian literature is subsumed into "world literature."
The center of Russian resistance is in a building on Nakhimov Square, where the Russian writer Leo Tolstoy once lived. The building, known as the "Moscow House," is the hub of a network designed to help local Russians feel at home in Sevastopol, with projects such as a school featuring a Russian lesson plan, a branch of Moscow's Lomonosov University and the construction of 2,000 comfortable apartments for officers.
The money for the projects comes from the budget of Moscow Mayor Luzhkov, who has been barred from entering Ukraine since May because of his inflammatory rhetoric. But for the Russians in Sevastopol, Luzhkov is a hero. Not only is he responsible for providing them with schools, lecture halls and apartments, but he also makes it unmistakably clear that the Ukrainians should not expect a Russian withdrawal, be it in "2017 or 3017," as Luzhkov says derisively.
A 'Single Nation'
Similar views are held in the Sevastopol city parliament, which is dominated by the supporters of former Ukrainian Prime Minister Viktor Yanukovich, communists and radicals from the "Russian bloc." The national chairman of the "bloc," Alexander Svistunov, happens to be visiting Sevastopol, and made himself available to answer questions.
As he sits there, evoking a peaceful future for the Crimea while at the same time explaining why things will probably turn out differently, Svistunov is the prototypical troublemaker feigning innocence. Unfortunately -- yes, unfortunately -- he says, the mood among the people in Sevastopol is similar to that of the Abkhazians and South Ossetians before war erupted in Georgia. The "tragic historical mistake" of awarding all of the Crimea to Ukraine threatens to come back to haunt the city, he says. Naturally, he adds, this is no reason for him and his people to unleash a war, but Sevastopol can certainly expect a "hot autumn."
Is he saying that there is no peaceful solution? Oh, of course there is, says Svistunov, explaining that Russia's Ukrainian and Belarusian brothers should simply come to terms with Moscow so that they can be brought back into the Russian fold. "Why risk yet another historic tragedy when the real issue is that we all belong to one single nation?"
Svistunov, along with almost 90 percent of the parliament of the Autonomous Republic of Crimea, recently voted for a resolution calling upon the pro-Western Ukrainian government to recognize the separatist republics of Abkhazia and South Ossetia -- a proposal with no prospect of succeeding. But it was yet another pinprick designed to generate headlines. Another was the threat, disguised as a call for help, by the deputy speaker of the Crimean parliament, who said: "We note with concern that we now face times no less dramatic than during the Crimean War, a century-and-a-half ago." Once again Europe, the deputy speaker added, has "gone to war with Russia."
Language of Power
"And," Miroslav Mamchak asks, smiling, "what was the outcome of that war? Russia lost, and Sevastopol fell. All enemies that have ever come here have captured the city -- that is the bitter truth about this city of heroes."
A retired sea captain in the Black Sea fleet, Mamchak was one of the first to swear an oath of allegiance to the Ukrainian flag, in 1992. Today he is one of the few who fearlessly expresses something that ought to be legally indisputable: that the port city is an inalienable part of Ukrainian territory and that the presence of the Russian fleet is contractually limited until 2017.
Mamchak, who is also the chairman of the "Ukrainian Society" and general manager of "Briz," a military radio station, has come under heavy fire from Russians in the city. He is caricatured on posters as an SS officer and fascist with a Hitler moustache, and, as he says, the words "Get out of Sevastopol" were scrawled onto the walls of his house. But Mamchak insists that he will not be forced to his knees by "criminals" and "mentally ill" warmongers.
The sorely afflicted city of heroes, says Mamchak, urgently needs a civilian concept for the future. "We currently have 100 meters (328 feet) of quay for warships, but only 90 meters (295 feet) for cruise ships. That has to change," he says. Mamchak's vision of a Sevastopol of the future includes tourists instead of torpedoes in the city's harbors, and "Ukrainian culture" instead of post-Soviet hero worship.
And how is this to be achieved against Moscow's wishes? Quite simply, says Mamchak: "Ukraine desperately needs to become part of NATO. Or re-obtain nuclear weapons. There is only one thing Russians understand: the language of power."
Translated from the German by Christopher Sultan http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,582092-2,00.html
CRIMEAN POWER STRUGGLE
Russia and Ukraine Jockey in the Black Sea
By Walter Mayr
The naval fleets of Russia and Ukraine share the port at Sevastopol on the Crimean Peninsula. Some in Russia would like the Ukrainian city to return to the Russian fold. Many fear that a spark here could quickly lead to a larger conflagration.
It is early morning deep inside the missile cruiser Moskva, where the heat and the stench of diesel fuel are the most oppressive, as the lower ranks emerge from their five-bed cabins. Below decks, the flagship of the Russian Black Sea fleet feels like a prison tract with cell walls made of gray-painted steel.
The sailors march up the stairs for morning roll call. At 7:43 a.m. sharp, officers and seamen stand at attention on the upper deck, in rows three deep, between cigar-shaped missile shafts and launching pads for anti-aircraft missiles, while the division commander inspects the formation. "We salute the Comrade Rear Admiral," the troops shout. The commanding officer replies: "At ease."
Here on Quay 14 in Sevastopol's Holland Harbor, the Russian navy is ready for battle once again, at least judging by what Rear Admiral Andrei Baranov, the deputy commander of the Russian Black Sea fleet, has to say. The recent operation in Georgian waters was a brief act of "self-defense," says Baranov, adding that additional combat missions are not on the agenda at this point. Nevertheless, he is quick to add, the Black Sea has undoubtedly become a "hot spot", and "we are, of course, obligated to protect our citizens in case of emergency."
The rear admiral chooses precisely the same words Moscow used to justify its August combat operations in Georgia. According to the Russians, citizens in the separatist regions of Abkhazia and South Ossetia, who had been issued Russian passports beforehand, required "protection" against Georgian aggression. But in the port city of Sevastopol, on Ukraine's Crimean Peninsula, the situation is more complex. Close to three-quarters of the city's residents and about half of the Crimean population are ethnic Russians, but most are Ukrainian citizens.
Facilitating Naturalization
Rumors have been swirling in the Crimea that Russian passports are being issued on a grand scale. The chairwoman of the "Russian Community" in Sevastopol thinks there could be as many as 50,000 Russian citizens in the city, a figure that officials at the Russian consulate deny. Last Monday, the upper house of the Russian parliament complicated matters even further when it adopted legislation facilitating the naturalization of ethnic Russian citizens of other countries, of which there are up to eight million in Ukraine alone.
Sevastopol, a naval base for 14,000 members of the Russian Black Sea fleet, is already a Moscow enclave of sorts, a sharp thorn in the side of Ukraine, an independent country since 1991. The city became Russian under Czarina Catherine II, and it remained that way until Soviet Communist Party leader Nikita Khrushchev, in the context of an exchange of territory, awarded the entire Crimea to the Ukrainian Soviet Socialist Republic in 1954 as a "gift." When the Black Sea fleet was split apart in 1997, Sevastopol became home to both a Russian and a Ukrainian naval unit. The Russian lease expires in May 2017.
Tension between the two countries has been high, though speculation that the Russian-Ukraine treaty on friendship -- which guarantees the current borders between the two countries and peaceful coexistence -- proved unfounded. The treaty was extended for another 10 years this week.
In the run up to the decision, however, many had thought new conditions would be introduced into the pact or that the treaty would be cancelled altogether. "If we lose Sevastopol, we lose the entire Caucasus," said Moscow Mayor Yuri Luzhkov, who wants the treaty jettisoned and the port city brought back into the Russian fold. As a mouthpiece of militancy and a sponsor of the Russian diaspora in the Crimea, Luzhkov has served as the Kremlin's watchdog for years. Ukrainian President Viktor Yushchenko, on the other hand, weakened by the renewed collapse of his governing coalition, has made it clear that he prefers to see the Russian navy leave his country sooner rather than later.
From on board the Moskva, it is easy to recognize why. A tiny spark in the harbor of Sevastopol could result in a much larger political conflagration. Ash-gray steel colossuses flying the Russian and Ukrainian flags are docked next to each other, the Alrosa, a Russian submarine, bobs nearby and, in the middle of it all, there is the visiting USNS Pathfinder, an American naval reconnaissance ship.
Expensive Evaporated Milk
For the Russians in Sevastopol, the US Navy's claim that the ship is here to search for World War II wrecks on the Black Sea floor is difficult to believe -- as are other US Navy claims. A Russian captain on board the Moskva says derisively: "The Americans are supposedly bringing evaporated milk to Georgia with their warships. That would be the world's most expensive evaporated milk."
NATO ships at anchor in the harbor of Sevastopol, the "City of Heroes," trigger old reflexes among those Russians who have always seen themselves as surrounded by their enemies. In pro-Moscow newspapers on the peninsula, Cossack groups and the backrooms of political incendiaries, there has recently been talk of an upcoming "third defense" of the city. After heroic losses in the 19th-century Crimean War and later against Nazi Germany, the Crimea's ethnic Russians now see themselves about to embark on a new form of defensive action: against the political leadership in Ukraine, which is seeking to join the NATO alliance.
When it comes to the Crimea and Sevastopol, the Russians believe that it is their mission to save more than just a fleet base, but also a miniature version of Russia. The seaside city is graced with cedar and acacia trees, a bronze statue of Lenin in front of the St. Vladimir Cathedral, elegant officers' clubs, nightly skating exhibitions featuring long-legged beauties on the piers and Russian pop music under a starry sky.
"The Crimea was everything that Russia was not: the south and freedom, a foreign place on the territory of the Russian empire," writes Karl Schlögel, an expert on Russia and Eastern Europe. The Crimea, a refuge for the aristocracy since the days of czars and dubbed the "red Riviera" during the Soviet era, occupies a fixed place in the collective Russian memory, he says. "Dream landscapes are more stable than countries, and the maps in people's heads continue to exist long after new borders have been drawn," says Schlögel.
'No Peaceful Solution'
The borders in favor of Ukraine were drawn here decades ago. But the voices that insist on Russia having an inalienable right to the Crimea are only beginning to grow today. Is it true, then, as Ukrainian government politicians claim, that a repeat of the bloody "Georgian scenario" could take place on Crimean soil?
"There can be no peaceful solution. But the price of a forceful disengagement of the Crimea from Ukraine would be high: War against a sister nation," says a thin Russian officer who has agreed to meet in a discreet outdoor restaurant in Sevastopol. The man, who wishes to be called Viktor Kalugin, for his own protection, is familiar with the combat readiness of his country's military. He was on the ship that sank the Georgi Toreli, a Georgian coast guard vessel, off the coast of Abkhazia on the evening of Aug. 9.
The Russian Flag for the Crimea?
"War is war, and an officer must execute the commands he is given," says Kalugin -- even when his men are marching against a former sister nation, as in the case of Georgia. "We didn't even know where we were going when we received our orders to deploy" says Kalugin. "We tried to keep up with the events by watching the news on television. But there was poor reception on the water. Even our commander knew nothing."
Would Kalugin be as obedient a soldier if he were fighting Russia's Ukrainian neighbors? He prefers not to think about it. He has served in the navy since the latter days of the Soviet era, and he has gone to wherever he was sent. He still drinks vodka with former colleagues who are now serving with the Ukrainian Black Sea fleet, but they never discuss politics. Kalugin, a high-ranking naval officer, has a fervent wish, which he keeps to himself on those evenings spent with the Ukrainians: That the Russian flag will soon fly "over, not just Sevastopol, but the entire Crimea."
In Sevastopol, just as in many once-closed cities of the vast former Soviet Union, some things have remained unchanged. Dubbed the "last bastion" while under Soviet control, and so strictly shielded that it was off-limits to foreigners until 1996, Sevastopol is a place where paranoia and xenophobic propaganda flourish like seedlings in a greenhouse. The toxic seeds planted by both sides since the 2004 Ukrainian revolution and Kiev's change of course have finally borne fruit.
Nightly Vigils
The port city's newspapers, with names like Last Bastion and Legendary Sevastopol, are increasingly filled with alarming reports of a near-collision between the missile cruiser Moskva and a Ukrainian naval vessel in Sevastopol Bay, Russian activists protesting at one of the city's breakwaters, clashes with the police, the destruction of a plaque commemorating the first warship to sail under the Ukrainian flag, protests by Ukrainians against a new memorial to Czarina Catherine II on Lenin Street and subsequent nightly vigils by Russian volunteers at the site.
After 1991, centuries of common history were shattered and the wreckage reassembled. The image that resulted on the one side is dominated by primarily Ukrainian-speaking freedom fighters, military commanders and poets. But there is mounting anger on the other side, among the once-dominant Russians: over issues like the removal of Russian stations from the cable TV lineup, university lectures in Ukrainian and schoolbooks in which, more recently, Russian literature is subsumed into "world literature."
The center of Russian resistance is in a building on Nakhimov Square, where the Russian writer Leo Tolstoy once lived. The building, known as the "Moscow House," is the hub of a network designed to help local Russians feel at home in Sevastopol, with projects such as a school featuring a Russian lesson plan, a branch of Moscow's Lomonosov University and the construction of 2,000 comfortable apartments for officers.
The money for the projects comes from the budget of Moscow Mayor Luzhkov, who has been barred from entering Ukraine since May because of his inflammatory rhetoric. But for the Russians in Sevastopol, Luzhkov is a hero. Not only is he responsible for providing them with schools, lecture halls and apartments, but he also makes it unmistakably clear that the Ukrainians should not expect a Russian withdrawal, be it in "2017 or 3017," as Luzhkov says derisively.
A 'Single Nation'
Similar views are held in the Sevastopol city parliament, which is dominated by the supporters of former Ukrainian Prime Minister Viktor Yanukovich, communists and radicals from the "Russian bloc." The national chairman of the "bloc," Alexander Svistunov, happens to be visiting Sevastopol, and made himself available to answer questions.
As he sits there, evoking a peaceful future for the Crimea while at the same time explaining why things will probably turn out differently, Svistunov is the prototypical troublemaker feigning innocence. Unfortunately -- yes, unfortunately -- he says, the mood among the people in Sevastopol is similar to that of the Abkhazians and South Ossetians before war erupted in Georgia. The "tragic historical mistake" of awarding all of the Crimea to Ukraine threatens to come back to haunt the city, he says. Naturally, he adds, this is no reason for him and his people to unleash a war, but Sevastopol can certainly expect a "hot autumn."
Is he saying that there is no peaceful solution? Oh, of course there is, says Svistunov, explaining that Russia's Ukrainian and Belarusian brothers should simply come to terms with Moscow so that they can be brought back into the Russian fold. "Why risk yet another historic tragedy when the real issue is that we all belong to one single nation?"
Svistunov, along with almost 90 percent of the parliament of the Autonomous Republic of Crimea, recently voted for a resolution calling upon the pro-Western Ukrainian government to recognize the separatist republics of Abkhazia and South Ossetia -- a proposal with no prospect of succeeding. But it was yet another pinprick designed to generate headlines. Another was the threat, disguised as a call for help, by the deputy speaker of the Crimean parliament, who said: "We note with concern that we now face times no less dramatic than during the Crimean War, a century-and-a-half ago." Once again Europe, the deputy speaker added, has "gone to war with Russia."
Language of Power
"And," Miroslav Mamchak asks, smiling, "what was the outcome of that war? Russia lost, and Sevastopol fell. All enemies that have ever come here have captured the city -- that is the bitter truth about this city of heroes."
A retired sea captain in the Black Sea fleet, Mamchak was one of the first to swear an oath of allegiance to the Ukrainian flag, in 1992. Today he is one of the few who fearlessly expresses something that ought to be legally indisputable: that the port city is an inalienable part of Ukrainian territory and that the presence of the Russian fleet is contractually limited until 2017.
Mamchak, who is also the chairman of the "Ukrainian Society" and general manager of "Briz," a military radio station, has come under heavy fire from Russians in the city. He is caricatured on posters as an SS officer and fascist with a Hitler moustache, and, as he says, the words "Get out of Sevastopol" were scrawled onto the walls of his house. But Mamchak insists that he will not be forced to his knees by "criminals" and "mentally ill" warmongers.
The sorely afflicted city of heroes, says Mamchak, urgently needs a civilian concept for the future. "We currently have 100 meters (328 feet) of quay for warships, but only 90 meters (295 feet) for cruise ships. That has to change," he says. Mamchak's vision of a Sevastopol of the future includes tourists instead of torpedoes in the city's harbors, and "Ukrainian culture" instead of post-Soviet hero worship.
And how is this to be achieved against Moscow's wishes? Quite simply, says Mamchak: "Ukraine desperately needs to become part of NATO. Or re-obtain nuclear weapons. There is only one thing Russians understand: the language of power."
Translated from the German by Christopher Sultan http://www.spiegel.de/international/world/0,1518,582092-2,00.html
- Reaction score
- 35
- Points
- 560
Economic fallout for Russia could become even worse as the fallout from the conflict in Georgia deters investors, while the effects of market intervention "by decree" can only be guessed at.
http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/10/02/europe/russia.php
http://www.iht.com/articles/2008/10/02/europe/russia.php
Blackadder1916
Army.ca Fixture
- Reaction score
- 2,865
- Points
- 1,160
- Reaction score
- 6,109
- Points
- 1,260
E.R. Campbell said:
Notice it’s only the G7 when something really important needs to be done.
G8? Anyone? Russia, Bueller, anyone?
George Wallace
Army.ca Dinosaur
- Reaction score
- 208
- Points
- 710
Well. It is one way to get a "Hospitality Suite" at the next G8 if Russia doesn't show. ;D