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Georgia and the Russian invasions/annexations/Lebensraum (2008 & 2015)

Why do you people put so much stock (ha!), and trust in the Russian economy considering for about 20 (consecutive) years during the USSR days the economy was completely false?
Not a good track record, and not much of a reason to trust the Russian government when some of the members were party members back then too.

I have no clue the 100% true state of their economy, nor the affect the issues now are causing.  And guess what?  I would wager no one else here does either.

Flanker, could to clarify this for me?:
"Let me tell that they are too far speculative and too far away from 99% people and businesses comparing to US or Canada."

The last part kinda lost me.  But hey, I never claim to be swift.
 
Kasparov I know, and he was ****ed by Putin.  So I can see how his opinion could matter.  Depending on what angle you wanted from him.
People who are pro-Putin and them, well yes...they wouldn't care, and would disagree.

Like Stalin...Zhukov may have given him good reviews...but a lot of other people were they alive surely wouldn't have.  And what would make those people's opinions any less valuable.

But I digress.  This documentary talk is off topic.
 
Koenigsegg said:
Flanker, could to clarify this for me?:
"Let me tell that they are too far speculative and too far away from 99% people and businesses comparing to US or Canada."

The last part kinda lost me.  But hey, I never claim to be swift.

The stock market in Russia is a gradually developping market.
Risks are high but profits can be also high.
This attracts speculative "investors" from all over the world who leave the market in panic when any instability in the world finance system is expected.
This is also the reason why very very few local people and companies are investing into the stock market.
So, when the market goes down, it does not affect economy so much.

 
Flanker said:
This is also the reason why very very few local people and companies are investing into the stock market.
So, when the market goes down, it does not affect economy so much.

OK.  Thank you.  I see what you meant now.
But, I being ignorant of the Russia economy can't really say anymore.

However, does anyone know what percentage of the Russian GDP or Income comes from exports and investment?
 
Flanker said:
You [E.R. Campbell] seem to exaggerate impacts of stock indexes on Russian economy.
Let me tell that they are too far speculative and too far away from 99% people and businesses comparing to US or Canada.
By the way, they are up 30% today.
Would you mind to post an article on this success? ;)


I would be have been happy to do that, Flanker if the Ruskis hadn’t ‘ceased trading’ again - this time because they couldn’t manage the upswing!

Here, instead, is a better analysis, reproduced under the Fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act from today’s Ottawa Citizen:

http://www.canada.com/ottawacitizen/views/story.html?id=09f3baba-28bc-469d-ae15-7232a62cf491
Bear market
Russia's stock market collapse this week could well be enough to drive the country back to its old, anti-economic ways

Eric Morse
Citizen Special

Saturday, September 20, 2008

Retribution has come upon Russia for its August war with Georgia faster than expected in the form of a massive market collapse. The great unknown is whether this will restrain Russia's geopolitical ambitions or inflame them. Inflammation is the safer bet.

Analysts estimate that foreign and domestic investors have pulled about $35 billion U.S. out of Russian markets since the brief war. Trading on Russian exchanges was suspended for much of this week. Certainly, Russia is affected by the global market chaos, and a fall in oil prices -- Russia's mainstay export -- has added to the turmoil, but the war has certainly made matters much worse.

The crisis in investor confidence has been compounded by the Kremlin's growing propensity for what amounts to bare-faced confiscation of other peoples' assets. That has led some Russia-watchers to wonder whether Russia can be said to have been operating under a market system at all, as we in the West comprehend it.

There is a current of wisdom which holds that Russia overplayed its hand by its use of military force against Georgia. The basis for this argument is that no matter how much fear Russian threats inspire in its neighbours, Russia is an economic paper tiger, even with the very visible threat of turning off the gas supply to Eastern and Central Europe, and that it cannot sustain a viable military threat to the geopolitical order.

It has been suggested that the Russian business oligarchy would not tolerate the domestic economic chaos that would ensue from geopolitical overreach. Sooner or later domestic political change would result, thereby curtailing the ability of Russia to drive the world order in the direction of its choosing.

The problem with the argument is that it values economics over psychology. The clique of ex-KGB strongmen -- the siloviki -- that has formed around Prime Minister Vladimir Putin has proven highly impermeable to what westerners regard as the basic reality of economics and business. This really should not be surprising in the light of history.

It is catechism in the West that business and market forces drive politics (although this belief system is as susceptible to having holes shot in it as any other theology). That catechism was never accepted by the leadership of Soviet Russia, nor -- more importantly for us in this era -- was it really ever taken to heart by the Russian people as a whole, nor is it accepted by the current political leadership.

This is not to suggest that Communism is resurgent, far from it. We forget too easily that Marxism-Leninism did not make modern Russia; pre-modern Russia made Marxism-Leninism. The house that Lenin, Trotsky and Stalin built was founded on the bedrock of Russian popular collectivism, intellectual imperialism and pan-Slavism and the divine right of Tsars -- roots that go as deep as the history of the Russian state.

The vital -- and dangerous -- factor is that the paramount traditions of Russian history are anti-economic. They deny the force of economics in favour of the force of the spirit, made manifest in business, politics and geopolitics by the application of physical force.

The "Russian free-market system" has only been in existence some 15 years. Western-style structures with some surface credibility only came into being after the market meltdown of 1998, but they have proven unable to resist forcible intervention to suit the interests of the rulers and the absence of the effective rule of law has become more and more noticeable.

Russia wears the mask of the market economy very thinly, and the benefits have not yet reached the mass of the Russian people in any meaningful way. Russia might develop a sudden excess of political restraint as a result of hard times. But the opposite reaction is frighteningly tempting -- to seek "saboteurs" (the current tame oligarchs would do very nicely as their financial usefulness to the ruling clique wears out) and even to attempt to return to the Soviet-era "security blanket" of economic autarchy. Soviet Russia failed economically but it took 70 years of cataclysm within and without to bring it to an end. Without Mikhail Gorbachev's interventions it might still be stumbling onward.

There is another dangerous factor. For all its failings, the Communist party had broad legitimacy and imposed internal collective discipline on the ruling circle. Nothing of the sort exists now except the personal authority of Mr. Putin. That is a very thin guarantee of order in the sort of power politics now played at the top levels in Russia.

In its circumstances, Russia would not be the first nation that overplayed its military hand in pursuit of a political chimera.

Eric Morse is a former member of External Affairs and a member of the Royal Canadian Military Institute's Defence Studies Committee.

© The Ottawa Citizen 2008​


It’s those ant-economic and anti-democratic “paramount traditions of Russian history” that cause all the problems. A “free market” is possible when, and only when, there is a legal system that protects the investor from predators. That is the weakness in China’s version of market capitalism – one which they recognize and, however haltingly, are addressing. It is the weakness is all of Russia’s systems – and they are not trying to solve the problem because the oligarchs are happy with it and the people are happy with the oligarchs. That is why Russia will not be a modern, trustworthy, law abiding nation-state and why it cannot be our friend or even our competitor. It is and will remain an unpredictable, even malevolent threat to East and West. 


 
Koenigsegg said:
Kasparov I know, and he was ****ed by Putin.  So I can see how his opinion could matter.  Depending on what angle you wanted from him.
People who are pro-Putin and them, well yes...they wouldn't care, and would disagree.

Like Stalin...Zhukov may have given him good reviews...but a lot of other people were they alive surely wouldn't have.  And what would make those people's opinions any less valuable.

But I digress.  This documentary talk is off topic.

Didn't really understand what the point of the article above is. In terms of "confiscations", I don't remember when assets got "confiscated" by the government since 1917. The government has bought some shares in public companies, but this is not really a bad thing. I mean the United States has de facto nationalized banks and insurance companies, and there is really no problem with that, of course here we made a new word for nationalization and now call it by the wonderful word of "stewardship". Nice one! Since banks need LIQUIDITY, many western funds are moving to CASH in order to provide this liquidity for banks, and hence, are moving out of emerging markets. Therefore: net capital outflow! And since, as flanker said, there are few local investors due to the high volatility, the markets suffer. Flanker has actually already commented on the situation in the market and since I agree with him, I won't comment further for now except for the point above.

In regard to Kasparov, he never mattered. While he may be a good chess player, he should stick to chess. His whole campaign seems to be centered around being hateful of Putin, without many ideas of his own. I've never actually heard of what he would *DO* should he come to power, except not be Putin. Nobody really listens to him in Russia, his whole campaign seems to be directed towards the west in order to recieve aid and support from them. He was never "****e" by Putin, or anyone... maybe by himself.
 
Flanker said:
Neither did Russia. So what was your point?
Flanker if you were paying attention you'd see I was referring to Serbia.  Oligarch's attempt to compare Quebec with Kosovo is ridiculous to say the least.
 
For whatever reason the Pro Russia crowd seems determined to ignore history and the day to day unraveling of Russia as a society under the Rule of Law.

The seizure of private assets has been most evident in the energy industry (and indeed this was the case even before the current economic crisis), with foreign companies either driven out of projects or subjected to various pressures to force Russian State ownership and control of the projects. Private Russian companies have also been forced out of business (think of the kangaroo court atmosphere surrounding the dissolution of Yukos (sp?))

Reporting of this and many other subjects is stifled by the oldest and crudest means possible; the murder of reporters.

Russian markets are fluctuating wildly since there is no reliable market information, people must finally believe that the kleptocrats are milking them of any profits causing unpredictable runs on the markets and economy. The Efficient Market hypothesis is demonstrated yet again.

While I feel for the people of Russia, who must bear these burdens, it is also clear they have chosen to leave the powers of the State in the hands of unreformed thugs from the former Soviet regime with the implicit promise these thugs will recreate a "Great Russia". They are now discovering the bill is being presented to them (not the former Soviet states and the EU and West), and given the endemic weakness of the Russian State, their economy and demographic underpinnings, I can only see lots of trouble ahead.
 
Thucydides said:
For whatever reason the Pro Russia crowd seems determined to ignore history and the day to day unraveling of Russia as a society under the Rule of Law.

The seizure of private assets has been most evident in the energy industry (and indeed this was the case even before the current economic crisis), with foreign companies either driven out of projects or subjected to various pressures to force Russian State ownership and control of the projects. Private Russian companies have also been forced out of business (think of the kangaroo court atmosphere surrounding the dissolution of Yukos (sp?))

Reporting of this and many other subjects is stifled by the oldest and crudest means possible; the murder of reporters.

Russian markets are fluctuating wildly since there is no reliable market information, people must finally believe that the kleptocrats are milking them of any profits causing unpredictable runs on the markets and economy. The Efficient Market hypothesis is demonstrated yet again.

While I feel for the people of Russia, who must bear these burdens, it is also clear they have chosen to leave the powers of the State in the hands of unreformed thugs from the former Soviet regime with the implicit promise these thugs will recreate a "Great Russia". They are now discovering the bill is being presented to them (not the former Soviet states and the EU and West), and given the endemic weakness of the Russian State, their economy and demographic underpinnings, I can only see lots of trouble ahead.

Could not disagree with you more. In regard to Yukos, I always find it curious how the western PR agencies, who make no secret of the fact that Khodorkovsky is a client, managed to turn the Russian verison of Kenneth Lay into a Martyr. Western companies are not forced out of anything. I'm not really sure what you are referring to, so please, if you are going to make such claims, do cite which particular case you are referring to.

In regard to Russian markets fluctuating, please refer to above posts. By the way, your post is contradictory. If the efficient market hypothesis was 'demonstrated', the markets would not be fluctuating due to an absense of information, but would simply stay low (if the majority of people in the market believed what you beleive). However, again, the reason the Russian market is fluctuating, as all emerging markets do, is due to western funds converting to cash. Even the last two i-banks have recently changed their status in order to basically be allowed to follow the canadian model and use deposits to cover their liquidity needs.

In regard to reporting being 'stifled', have you ever observed Russian press/news? Or are you just going by someone's word? I have!

Who do you suppose is killing these journalists? I know you didn't say it was the state, but the way I understand is that you implied this. Correct me if I am wrong by all means. Maybe you would like to share this evidence you have that you are drawing your conclusions on, because I sure would love to know if my opinion has been wrong and my personal experiences with Russia have been the effect of some sort of centrally planned massive lie by the all powerful Putin.

In regard to you feeling for the people of Russia, don't. The Russian people are happy where they are right now, believe me, take it from someone who knows people in Russia and who visits the country regularly. And I don't even mean Moscow, I mean 'poor' Siberian cities. In regard to 'their economy', their economy is in much better shape right now that is the economy south of the border, who's depression we will unquestionably feel.

Anyways, I didn't really know which point to dwell on because many of the things you are claiming are simple cliches and some are just plain wrong, so I'll move on.
 
cameron said:
Flanker if you were paying attention you'd see I was referring to Serbia.  Oligarch's attempt to compare Quebec with Kosovo is ridiculous to say the least.

How so? Please articulate your opinion with inclusion of premises, hopefully connected in some sort of argumentative structure, which would tie your premises together in support of your conclusion. If you just state the conclusion with no premises it is hard to be convinced that you are presenting the correct viewpoint, even for a much more open-minded individual than myself.
 
Oligarch it would be better to phrase your request in a more concise manner. Thx ;)
 
tomahawk6 said:
Oligarch it would be better to phrase your request in a more concise manner. Thx ;)

Since Oligarch seems willing to ignore dead reporters on the street (who does he suppose is killing them?), I suspect that we are just wasting bandwidth here. Let's carry on with the discussion at hand.
 
Thucydides said:
Since Oligarch seems willing to ignore dead reporters on the street (who does he suppose is killing them?), I suspect that we are just wasting bandwidth here. Let's carry on with the discussion at hand.

Even though your implication that ***in order to say that one party is not GUILTY UNTILL PROVEN INNOCENT I must accuse someone else of the impugned crime*** is ridden with flawed logic, I'll play your game this time.... the answer to your question would possibly have something to do with Berezovsky.

Who do you suppose killed them? Putin? Why would he kill Journalists such as Politkovskaya but not journalists such as Evgenyi Kiselev, who is hosting an absurdly anti-Putin, pro-Khodorkovsky show on RTVi from his comfy studio in Moscow? Every single show starts with a countdown untill the end of Khodorkovsky's prison term in an act of protest, and while Putin was still the elected president, untill the end of his term. Now how is this man able to host such a show in a country with no free speech?

http://vlast.rtvi.com/
 
oligarch said:
Even though your implication that ***in order to say that one party is not GUILTY UNTILL PROVEN INNOCENT I must accuse someone else of the impugned crime*** is ridden with flawed logic, I'll play your game this time.... the answer to your question would possibly have something to do with Berezovsky.

Who do you suppose killed them? Putin? Why would he kill Journalists such as Politkovskaya but not journalists such as Evgenyi Kiselev, who is hosting an absurdly anti-Putin, pro-Khodorkovsky show on RTVi from his comfy studio in Moscow? Every single show starts with a countdown untill the end of Khodorkovsky's prison term in an act of protest, and while Putin was still the elected president, untill the end of his term. Now how is this man able to host such a show in a country with no free speech?

http://vlast.rtvi.com/

Dear Sir, your posts are really confusing me.

In lay terms what exactly are you trying to tell us on here?

Seems your agenda is one sided. If I am incorrect, please explain.

Please respond.

Thanking you in advance,

A happy, healthy, and team playing OWDU.
 
Thucydides said:
Since Oligarch seems willing to ignore dead reporters on the street (who does he suppose is killing them?), I suspect that we are just wasting bandwidth here. Let's carry on with the discussion at hand.

I couldn't agree more, I think it's time we get back to reality.
 
It still appears to be a case of continuing the cat and mouse game..

http://www.gulfnews.com/world/Georgia/10247152.html
Georgia shoots Russia drone near South Ossetia 
Agencies
Published: September 23, 2008, 12:42

Tblisi: Georgia said on Tuesday it had shot down a small Russian reconnaissance drone over Georgian territory just south of the breakaway region of South Ossetia.

The drone was downed on Monday morning near the town of Gori, some 30 km (20 miles) from the de facto border with South Ossetia, said Georgian Interior Ministry spokesman Shota Utiashvili. There was no immediate response from the Russian authorities.



 
The economic issue for Russia are simply described in teh following link.
It is too long to post so I have only added the first piece.
LINK: http://www.gulfnews.com/opinion/columns/business/10247267.html

Russia's coming financial crash
By Anders Aslund, Project Syndicate, 2008, Special to Gulf News
Published: September 24, 2008, 00:07


Today, the whole world is being hit by a tremendous financial crisis, but Russia is facing a perfect storm. The Russian stock market is in free fall, plummeting by 60 per cent since May 19, a loss of $900 billion. And the plunge is accelerating. As a result, Russia's economic growth is likely to fall sharply and suddenly.

One problem is that, after a long period of fiscal prudence, Russia's government has shown extraordinary ineptitude. Russia has enjoyed average annual economic growth of 7 per cent since 1999. With huge current-account and budget surpluses, it had accumulated international reserves of $600 billion by July. Its public debt was almost eliminated. But the open economy that has bred Russia's economic success requires the maintenance of sensible policies to succeed.

The initial American financial crisis barely touched Russia, but the global economic slowdown brought about a decline in oil and other commodity prices by more than one-third since July, which was a big blow. All the other hits, however, have been self-inflicted. The Russian financial crisis is high drama, best described as a tragedy in five acts.

On July 24, Prime Minister Vladimir Putin initiated the first act by fiercely attacking, without evidence, the timid owner of the giant coal and steel company Mechel for price-gouging and tax evasion. In three days, Mechel's shares lost half their value, triggering the Russian stock market's decline.

Then, on August 8, Putin launched the second act of this Russian tragedy, his long-planned attack on Georgia. Shockingly, Russia argued that it had the right to attack a country that harboured people to whom it had just issued passports, scaring all countries with Russian minorities. By recognising the "independence" of the two occupied territories, Abkhazia and South Ossetia, Russia turned the whole world against it.

Anders Aslund, a senior fellow of the Peterson Institute for International Economics, is the author of Russia's Capitalist Revolution: Why Market Reform Succeeded and Democracy Failed.

The author describes 5 acts/phases to the econimic problem..

Anyway entertaining...
 
tdr_aust said:
The economic issue for Russia are simply described in teh following link.
It is too long to post so I have only added the first piece.
LINK: http://www.gulfnews.com/opinion/columns/business/10247267.html

The author describes 5 acts/phases to the econimic problem..

Anyway entertaining...

This is a terrible way to look at the non-existant crisis on the Russian market. As you can see, the markets in Russia are again in decent shape, while the US bailouts are failing. The falling markets are due to speculative capital which always flees emerging markets in times of liquidity troubles. Anyways, this has already been explained on here numerous times. The way things are looking now, I might have to move to Russia in order to get a job in finance nowadays, at least they still have investment banks over there. =)

Now for something REALLY entertaining, Russian war games:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uyow0fxB1BM
 
Now the West has to undo the damage of the last decade of feeding the delusions of Vladimir Putin and the rest of the Russian elite

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121876037443642795.html?mod=opinion_main_commentaries

How the West Fueled Putin's Sense of Impunity
By GARRY KASPAROV

   
Russia's invasion of Georgia reminded me of a conversation I had three years ago in Moscow with a high-ranking European Union official. Russia was much freer then, but President Vladimir Putin's onslaught against democratic rights was already underway.

"What would it take," I asked, "for Europe to stop treating Putin like a democrat? If all opposition parties are banned? Or what if they started shooting people in the street?" The official shrugged and replied that even in such cases, there would be little the EU could do. He added: "Staying engaged will always be the best hope for the people of both Europe and Russia."

The citizens of Georgia would likely disagree. Russia's invasion was the direct result of nearly a decade of Western helplessness and delusion. Inexperienced and cautious in the international arena at the start of his reign in 2000, Mr. Putin soon learned he could get away with anything without repercussions from the EU or America.

Russia reverted to a KGB dictatorship while Mr. Putin was treated as an equal at G-8 summits. Italy's Silvio Berlusconi and Germany's Gerhardt Schroeder became Kremlin business partners. Mr. Putin discovered democratic credentials could be bought and sold just like everything else. The final confirmation was the acceptance of Dmitry Medvedev in the G-8, and on the world stage. The leaders of the Free World welcomed Mr. Putin's puppet, who had been anointed in blatantly faked elections.

On Tuesday, French President Nicolas Sarkozy sprinted to Moscow to broker a ceasefire agreement. He was allowed to go through the motions, perhaps as a reward for his congratulatory phone call to Mr. Putin after our December parliamentary "elections." But just a few months ago Mr. Sarkozy was in Moscow as a supplicant, lobbying for Renault. How much credibility does he really have in Mr. Putin's eyes?

In reality, Mr. Sarkozy is attempting to remedy a crisis he helped bring about. Last April, France opposed the American push to fast-track Georgia's North Atlantic Treaty Organization membership. This was one of many missed opportunities that collectively built up Mr. Putin's sense of impunity. In this way the G-7 nations aided and abetted the Kremlin's ambitions.

Georgia blundered into a trap, although its imprudent aggression in South Ossetia was overshadowed by Mr. Putin's desire to play the strongman. Russia seized the chance to go on the offensive in Georgian territory while playing the victim/hero. Mr. Putin has long been eager to punish Georgian President Mikheil Saakashvili for his lack of respect both for Georgia's old master Russia, and for Mr. Putin personally. (Popular rumor has it that the Georgian president once mocked his peer as "Lilli-Putin.")

Although Mr. Saakashvili could hardly be called a model democrat, his embrace of Europe and the West is considered a very bad example by the Kremlin. The administrations of the Georgian breakaway areas of Abkhazia and South Ossetia are stocked, top to bottom, with bureaucrats from the Russian security services.

Throughout the conflict, the Kremlin-choreographed message in the Russian media has been one of hysteria. The news presents Russia as surrounded by enemies on all sides, near and far, and the military intervention in Georgia as essential to protect the lives and interests of Russians. It is also often spoken of as just the first step, with enclaves in Ukraine next on the menu. Attack dogs like Russian nationalist politician Vladimir Zhirinovsky are used to test and whip up public opinion. Kremlin-sponsored ultranationalist ideologue Alexander Dugin went on the radio to say Russian forces "should not stop until they are stopped." The damage done by such rhetoric is very slow to heal.

The conflict also threatens to poison Russia's relationship with Europe and America for years to come. Can such a belligerent state be trusted as the guarantor of Europe's energy supply? Republican presidential candidate John McCain has been derided for his strong stance against Mr. Putin, including a proposal to kick Russia out of the G-8. Will his critics now admit that the man they called an antiquated cold warrior was right all along?

The conventional wisdom of Russia's "invulnerability" serves as an excuse for inaction. President Bush's belatedly toughened language is welcome, but actual sanctions must now be considered. The Kremlin's ruling clique has vital interests -- i.e. assets -- abroad and those interests are vulnerable.

The blood of those killed in this conflict is on the hands of radical nationalists, thoughtless politicians, opportunistic oligarchs and the leaders of the Free World who value gas and oil more than principles. More lives will be lost unless strong moral lines are drawn to reinforce the shattered lines of the map.

Mr. Kasparov, leader of The Other Russia coalition, is a contributing editor of The Wall Street Journal.
 
Thucydides said:
Now the West has to undo the damage of the last decade of feeding the delusions of Vladimir Putin and the rest of the Russian elite

http://online.wsj.com/article/SB121876037443642795.html?mod=opinion_main_commentaries

Garry Kasparov, and apparently Thucydides, forgot who the president of Russia is.

President of Russia: http://kremlin.ru/eng/articles/D_Medvedev.shtml
 
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