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Future of Government Pensions (PS, CF & RCMP) & CF pension "double-dip"

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dapaterson said:
McG touched on an underlying question:  Do we need more "variable" TOS in the Reg F - not in terms of length of service, but in terms of geographic stability?  What trade-offs could be made to maintain effectiveness but provide pers with less disruption in their lives?


And Chief Stoker:  The NavRes problem, to my mind, was that they lacked the size to implement the original plan.  If all MCDVs were fully crewed that would require roughly 10% of the NavRes at sea at any one time.  A much larger NavRes would likely be able to sustain the "mostly short term" model - my back of the envelope calculation would be a regularly parading trained strength of about 6K (so 7K with the BTL) - roughly double what we have now.

That's about right and why manning is what it is. We have a massive BTL backlog which we're making good progress in clearing up. I doubt if we'll ever have enough people. When we first had the ships manning was good, but steadily declined. CT's really killed us.
 
Wow, talk about a champagne socialist, Ryan Cleary, who's been an MP for less than a year, is saying he wants a bigger pension

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newfoundland-labrador/story/2012/03/02/nl-ryan-cleary-pension-302.html

"I work my butt off,” Cleary said. “Would I deserve a pension of $28,000 after six years? Probably not. It should be more than that.”

More at the link.
 
He's gonna be disappointed when most of the Quebec NDP'ers go bye bye come next election....with no pension
 
ballz said:
Wow, talk about a champagne socialist, Ryan Cleary, who's been an MP for less than a year, is saying he wants a bigger pension

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newfoundland-labrador/story/2012/03/02/nl-ryan-cleary-pension-302.html

More at the link.
I saw that too....greedy bastard. I served 24.5 years and my annual pension isn't that big.
 
Yes, well apparently only MPs work their butts off and have jobs that are really lifestyles.  It's not as if they make a great salary plus expenses.  Oh, and the working environment is horrible.  Parliament buildinga are old and dank. 

To be honest, I'm the first to defend their salaries and the fact that most do work hard and that yes the job is 24/7.  But, the pensions are ridiculous (you won't find too many canadians, maybe 308 and most, that will be sorry to see changes to that) and for this idiot to talk the way he's talking while people lose their jobs and in some cases even their pensions or work 24/7 without getting pensions makes it sound like he didn't really know what he was getting into.
 
Regarding the double dip- just a simple thought, and I ask as a reservist who bounces between Cl A / short term Cl B for the most part- why not simply introduce regulations to the effect that an annuitant on Cl B service over 89 days shall, instead of drawing form their pension, simply continue to contribute to it until such time as they hit their 35 years pensionable service? If someone does their 35 between RefF / Cl B service and maxes out their pension, then I'm not too fussed by them 'double dipping'. We'd otherwise be losing them anyway to retirement, and the real incremental cost remains only the Cl B salary for doing a Cl B job. It seems fair. At the same time, one could not then do 25 years, hop out on 50% and work for 85%, being paid effectively 135% for another ten years before retiring back to 50% pension. Anyone who serves full time for 35 gets the pension for 35- but doesn't double dip to much greater income for the shorter term.

Is there something I'm missing on this that's precluding me from 'getting' how the double dip works?
 
ballz said:
Wow, talk about a champagne socialist, Ryan Cleary, who's been an MP for less than a year, is saying he wants a bigger pension

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/newfoundland-labrador/story/2012/03/02/nl-ryan-cleary-pension-302.html

More at the link.

Not gonna lie, I lost my stuffing when I read that article. I had to read it three times just to try and figure out if this clown was joking or being sarcastic. I presume that this MP in question will be the first to stand to and vote "nay" on any changes at all to federally controlled pensions?

I have a lot to say, none of it flattering. I will now just wonder away, go back to my home work, muttering about the world we live in today...

(Better news, just 4 more weeks of DL!!!).
 
Crantor said:
For the record I have nothing against annuitants or full time class b folks.  However it is a systematic problem created by DND/CF.  These temporary positions have become pseudo permanent and no real solution has been put forward to properly staff these positions.

The way i see it if you are on long term class B it should be in support of reserve establishments be they CBGs or unit full time staff.

If you augment or fill a spot in a reg force establishment it should be a short term contract and that organisation take the time to properly staff it with reg force personnel.  Those contracts should be class C.

Of course exceptions will arise and should be made.

But employing annuitants and full time reservists for long term contracts should not be the default setting or the norm.
 

I put to you an exception to the rule. New capabilities which the CF has seen fit to develop can not be properly managed by the Reg F because of the transient nature of the Reg F. Influencing Activities (PSYOPS, IO and CIMIC) require years of training and study to get truly competent in, until such time as these capabilities are turned into a MOSID (which will never happen), these capabilities will only grow under the PRes, as the PRes will not leave unless they want to (no postings).

As a trainer, I truly wish I could say that when a candidate graduates my courses, they are fully competent and ready to deploy as a practitioner, but given that I have mere weeks to cram 2 years worth of boiled down college material, well... My graduates require more training.

A Reg F member who is posted out after 2-3 years would be posted just as they are getting good at what they do, and at about that time they should be turning around to help train the next generation of practitioners or deploy to a mission area. I do want to see more Reg F on these courses (a lot more), perhaps if every single soldier, sailor and airman/woman were trained up we could defeat the nature of the posting cycle (I also want to win the lottery, travel to the moon and find a cure for cancer).

This said, I do value reservists who continue to contribute to their units while employed on CL B. I have continuously done so myself for the past 6 years and expect the very same of the subordinates under me within my home unit. CL B can be a real drain on a home unit, as soldiers sometimes disappear on us for very long periods of time while remaining in our line serials (making recruitment for achieving effective strength difficult).

(Now I truly have to get back to my studies... Pulling the plug!)
 
Teeps74 said:
 

I put to you an exception to the rule. New capabilities which the CF has seen fit to develop can not be properly managed by the Reg F because of the transient nature of the Reg F. Influencing Activities (PSYOPS, IO and CIMIC) require years of training and study to get truly competent in, until such time as these capabilities are turned into a MOSID (which will never happen), these capabilities will only grow under the PRes, as the PRes will not leave unless they want to (no postings).
As a trainer, I truly wish I could say that when a candidate graduates my courses, they are fully competent and ready to deploy as a practitioner, but given that I have mere weeks to cram 2 years worth of boiled down college material, well... My graduates require more training.

A Reg F member who is posted out after 2-3 years would be posted just as they are getting good at what they do, and at about that time they should be turning around to help train the next generation of practitioners or deploy to a mission area. I do want to see more Reg F on these courses (a lot more), perhaps if every single soldier, sailor and airman/woman were trained up we could defeat the nature of the posting cycle (I also want to win the lottery, travel to the moon and find a cure for cancer).

This said, I do value reservists who continue to contribute to their units while employed on CL B. I have continuously done so myself for the past 6 years and expect the very same of the subordinates under me within my home unit. CL B can be a real drain on a home unit, as soldiers sometimes disappear on us for very long periods of time while remaining in our line serials (making recruitment for achieving effective strength difficult).

(Now I truly have to get back to my studies... Pulling the plug!)

All good points BUT Most reserve units don't want to use their senior officers/ NCMs for the CIMIC, PYOPS, IO jobs. With all the cuts, they need you to do whatever role your unit has to accomplish. Also, if you are filling a Class B job for the Reg force, they sure don't want to cut you any slack to help do extra Class A with the home unit.

Mix all that in with an unreal travel agenda with no fixed address for 3 years and this is why I dropped my, so called cushy Class B contract, half way through and eventually took off the green stuff permanently.
 
Jed said:
All good points BUT Most reserve units don't want to use their senior officers/ NCMs for the CIMIC, PYOPS, IO jobs. With all the cuts, they need you to do whatever role your unit has to accomplish. Also, if you are filling a Class B job for the Reg force, they sure don't want to cut you any slack to help do extra Class A with the home unit.

Mix all that in with an unreal travel agenda with no fixed address for 3 years and this is why I dropped my, so called cushy Class B contract, half way through and eventually took off the green stuff permanently.

In Ontario, I know of at least one CBG that has mandated that all reserve units will develop an IA capability.

The unit I am currently employed with is exceptionally supportive of my voluntary duties with my home unit. Crazy thing is, I would suggest that given the evenings and weekends nature, most employing units should not have too much grief with the voluntary service, as it does allow us to grow in our trades and our jobs (I also gain twice the opportunities to complete IBTS, and have become a lesser administrative burden to both units in this regard.)

(Anyhoo, time for bed... I have to finish my cursed paper tomorrow.)
 
Brihard said:
Regarding the double dip- just a simple thought, and I ask as a reservist who bounces between Cl A / short term Cl B for the most part- why not simply introduce regulations to the effect that an annuitant on Cl B service over 89 days shall, instead of drawing form their pension, simply continue to contribute to it until such time as they hit their 35 years pensionable service? If someone does their 35 between RefF / Cl B service and maxes out their pension, then I'm not too fussed by them 'double dipping'. We'd otherwise be losing them anyway to retirement, and the real incremental cost remains only the Cl B salary for doing a Cl B job. It seems fair. At the same time, one could not then do 25 years, hop out on 50% and work for 85%, being paid effectively 135% for another ten years before retiring back to 50% pension. Anyone who serves full time for 35 gets the pension for 35- but doesn't double dip to much greater income for the shorter term.

Is there something I'm missing on this that's precluding me from 'getting' how the double dip works?

The latest I heard this week was that its headed back to be re looked at and no decision was made yet. This week I talked to six annuitants with previous service from 20 years to 35 years and everyone of them said they will quit if forced to pay in and cease collecting their pension.
 
Brihard said:
Regarding the double dip- just a simple thought, and I ask as a reservist who bounces between Cl A / short term Cl B for the most part- why not simply introduce regulations to the effect that an annuitant on Cl B service over 89 days shall, instead of drawing form their pension, simply continue to contribute to it until such time as they hit their 35 years pensionable service? If someone does their 35 between RefF / Cl B service and maxes out their pension, then I'm not too fussed by them 'double dipping'. We'd otherwise be losing them anyway to retirement, and the real incremental cost remains only the Cl B salary for doing a Cl B job. It seems fair. At the same time, one could not then do 25 years, hop out on 50% and work for 85%, being paid effectively 135% for another ten years before retiring back to 50% pension. Anyone who serves full time for 35 gets the pension for 35- but doesn't double dip to much greater income for the shorter term.

Is there something I'm missing on this that's precluding me from 'getting' how the double dip works?

Along with Chief Stokers comments, the Annuitant with 25 to 35 years Reg Force service only has a few years left before they reach CRA.  To take away their pension for that short period of time and have them pay into the Reserve pension while serving as Class B at only 85% of their former Reg Force salary is a slap in their junk.  Why would any sane person give up a pension for a job that has a 15% lower salary?  Perhaps, if Annuitants were offered Class C (equal to Reg Force pay scale, paid by the Reg Force Pay System) some would stay.  If not, then I agree with Chief Stoker's comments on most packing it in and leaving, taking all their experience and knowledge with them.
 
George Wallace said:
Along with Chief Stokers comments, the Annuitant with 25 to 35 years Reg Force service only has a few years left before they reach CRA.  To take away their pension for that short period of time and have them pay into the Reserve pension while serving as Class B at only 85% of their former Reg Force salary is a slap in their junk.  Why would any sane person give up a pension for a job that has a 15% lower salary?  Perhaps, if Annuitants were offered Class C (equal to Reg Force pay scale, paid by the Reg Force Pay System) some would stay.  If not, then I agree with Chief Stoker's comments on most packing it in and leaving, taking all their experience and knowledge with them.

I like to point out four of the five are receiving Class C and are fairly close to CRA. The only way I can see an annuitant staying is if they need the job and the extra money due to divorce or something like that.
I suspect the powers to be want to weed out some of the annuitants without playing the bad guy and cutting their positions through strat review.
 
I am currently one of those evil "Double Dippers" (I really dislike that term). I am not sure what the problem is with being an annuitant and filling a Cl B position lies. Regardless if it is myself or someone else the wage will still need to be paid in order to have the job done.
At my current job we are understaffed as it is in addition approximately 1/3 of the present workforce are annuitants. I could see this plan backfiring and our workplace losing all of these personnel to become even more undermanned then they are now. It is my understanding that my pension does not come out of the DND budget so I am unsure of where the "savings" would come in, or is it just the optics of "Double Dippers" that is the problem.
 
Gizmo 421 said:
I am currently one of those evil "Double Dippers" (I really dislike that term). I am not sure what the problem is with being an annuitant and filling a Cl B position lies. Regardless if it is myself or someone else the wage will still need to be paid in order to have the job done.

Exactly.

To recap, iiirc, the primary arguments are against the following:

1) Somebody regforce walking out the door one day, walking back into the same (non-reserve unit) job the next day as a full-time reservist.

2) The class B grass being greener than the regforce grass, encouraging folks to release and take a class B contract; the corollary being that to cut the ability of an annuitant to draw their pension while in class B is to either stop releases from reg force or force folks to CT back to reg force.

3) Someone with a career in uniform behind them, being paid as an experienced uniformed member while still drawing a pension for their experience in uniform.

4) A federal employee drawing a federal pension, regardless of what department they worked for in the past and which one's employing them now.

5) Necessary jobs, mandated to be regforce, being permanently filled by full-time reservists because their priority is so low that they are never filled by regforce.

For 1), there's something sick with the establishment beyond double-dipping. Eliminating it might attrition the reservists who are employed in those permanent positions at reg force units, but why are reservists being employed in those situations in the first place?

For 2), they've earned their pension already. If they go to the public service, under hiring preferences, they're still going to get their pension. Or if they find a job in the private sector that wants their skills, they'll go there. You're unlikely to get a married warrant in his 40's or 50's to from a comfortable reserve Ops WO post back into the regular posting cycle. Jobs they can take while drawing their pension are out there, without the hassle of regforce obligations.

For a philosophical answer to 3), I refer to Gizmo's post. He's still getting paid the pension no matter where he gets his income. As per 1), his unit is sick and eliminating the members' ability to draw pensions at best replaces those experienced personnel with "experienced" class A reservists. It doesn't restructure the organization to get regforce personnel other than by having the unit collapse because of its inability to fulfill its mission.

In the case of a reserve unit's RSS positions, you're getting an experienced cadre to support a unit, without which you're again getting replacements that are currently class A personnel.

4) The regular force, RCMP, and public service are three separate government employers. Consolidating the pensions of the three cuts out much of the benefit of one beginning a second career with another. Who does it help to make that change?

If a reg force MP goes to the Edmonton Police service and keeps his pension, rather than the RCMP and draw nothing, who's benefiting? He's just going to grab a second pension at EPS instead.

Paying out a pension that's already been earned by the member doesn't come out of the operating budget of the CF, or, to my knowledge, any of the three mentioned employers.

5) There's a place for class B. I don't see a problem with a turnover of reserve augmentees at a training centre; drivers, lower skill support positions, and demo tp. But if there's a permanent, skilled position, with someone occupying a supervisory role that can't be filled by regforce due to it being a low priority, its an indication that something's wrong with how that job's priority is being handled.
 
OK, I think I can understand this a little more now, this is not a cost saving measure but a retention plan. Sort of like the old carrot and stick analogy, instead of using a carrot to convince Reg Force personnel to stay in they will use a stick to make certain options unattractive.
 
Gizmo 421 said:
OK, I think I can understand this a little more now, this is not a cost saving measure but a retention plan. Sort of like the old carrot and stick analogy, instead of using a carrot to convince Reg Force personnel to stay in they will use a stick to make certain options unattractive.

Sounds about right in my opinion. Unfortunately, my relatively unique situation meant I pretty much had to do a Class B unless I resigned up to go all the way to 60 yrs plus or take a big hit on the pension. (old guy signing up on the old pension plan) But that's another story.

Looking back at this changing Class B situation, it will probably sort out favourably for most situations if that is its main purpose, to retain Reg personnel.
 
Brasidas said:
The regular force, RCMP, and public service are three separate government employers.
No.  Those are three different types of employment under the same employer.  In all three cases, the employer is the same: the federal government.

Gizmo 421 said:
OK, I think I can understand this a little more now, this is not a cost saving measure but a retention plan. Sort of like the old carrot and stick analogy, instead of using a carrot to convince Reg Force personnel to stay in they will use a stick to make certain options unattractive.
It may be that some people are planning to make a stick in order to chase annuitants away from current employment.  That is not where I want to go.  However, I want a different/new carrot to attract Reg F retiries to the PRes.  The double-dip should cease to be an option for those leaving the Reg F (if we want a grandfather mechanism for pers already retired, then someone can figure that out).  Instead, we should offer geographic accomodation (with 15% pay cut) as an option to retain pers in the Reg F, and we should offer pay top-up as an incentive for retiring annuitants to enter the PRes.

 
Institute a guideline that states once retired and collecting a pension, no Class B for three years. Class A only, unless exceptional circumstances exist.
 
MCG said:
No.  Those are three different types of employment under the same employer.  In all three cases, the employer is the same: the federal government.

They're pretty distinct organizations, to the extent that I don't see the point of arguing against a double pension for two careers of 20+ years. Again, I refer to the example of an MP going to work for a city police service vs the RCMP. Other than a philosophical dislike for two rather distinct organizations paying separate pensions under federal mandates, what's the difference for that MP getting a second pension after service with RCMP vs a city police service?

It may be that some people are planning to make a stick in order to chase annuitants away from current employment.  That is not where I want to go.  However, I want a different/new carrot to attract Reg F retiries to the PRes.  The double-dip should cease to be an option for those leaving the Reg F (if we want a grandfather mechanism for pers already retired, then someone can figure that out).  Instead, we should offer geographic accomodation (with 15% pay cut) as an option to retain pers in the Reg F, and we should offer pay top-up as an incentive for retiring annuitants to enter the PRes.

So instead of a veteran earning a pension while working his new job, doing the same job for the same pay as a conventional reservist, you would keep him from drawing his pension and instead give him more pay.

Moreover, a clerk in an Edmonton unit who wants to stay in Edmonton could choose between getting cut to 85% pay and staying put or keeping his full pay and taking over the OR at a reserve unit.
 
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