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Future Canadian Airborne Capability and Organisation! Or, is it Redundant? (a merged thread)

ArmyRick said:
4 x platoons gives OC more platoons to fight with but it also increases coy supply requirements (Rats, water, ammo, POL) by 20-25%. 3 x Platoons is very manageable and it still leaves some depth to operations.

I would lean more towards 3 x platoons. Another option is having that fourth platoon but they man all the LAVs for the Coy (LAV SGTs would then be Sect comd within that LAV platoon and the LAV Captain would be the commander). But at that point we are re-inventing a wheel.

IMO, 3 x platoons (properly manned) is good to go as a standing ORBAT. Specific mission requirements in the future may dictate we need a fourth platoon but we will cross that bridge at that time.

I know this is an old quote but i feel like addressing it. Not sure if you know but Canada already used a four platoon company in Afghanistan. Don't know how both OC's handled the extra platoon, but it was done.
 
ArmyRick said:
Personally, I think getting all ramped up about a parachute capability at battalion level is not worth it. I agree that parachuting (in all its forms) is probably best left to special operations in this day and age. 

......

My bottom line, there is higher priorities than developing the battalion parachute capability.

I agree completely with this entire post.

My point to add is; while it may be desirables for the Army to develop a parachute capable battalion, the RCAF lacks the number airframes to deliver it effectively.
 
Rider Pride said:
I agree completely with this entire post.

My point to add is; while it may be desirables for the Army to develop a parachute capable battalion, the RCAF lacks the number airframes to deliver it effectively.

Also, a parachute capability is really only useful if you have the supporting arms able to back it up.  Seeing as how we have no airborne engineers (a platoon of engineers with their jump wings does not qualify) or any airborne artillery (again a few gunner's with jump wings does not qualify) the skill is rather useless as we cannot even realistically seize an airhead. 

People may point to the recent example of the French dropping a reinforced company group in Mali but what they also will fail to realize is the French also dropped bulldozers, heavy equipment and an assortment of other goodies with them to make the operation possible.  They also have an airborne brigade with the supporting arms capability to back up their efforts.  Even they are struggling with airframes as the A-400M is only just beginning to be delivered (they have ordered 50).

Photos posted below of French Airborne Engineers jumping as well as 2 REP

operation-serval-point-de-situation-du-29-janvier-2013.jpg


Airborne Engineers jump on Timbuktu airfield

79220448522607485645651.jpg


Some heavy equipment they brought with them

bilan-du-30-janvier-2013.jpg


More heavy equipment

8FFOHBX.jpg


French Foreign Legion loading up for their jump

Drop_a_company_2nd_Foreign_Legion_Parachute_Regiment_2e%20REP_%20to_Timbuktu_seen_from_a_drone_Harfang_28_January_2013_001.jpg


The jump

 
Fake penguin,

I am aware that some of the BG for A-stan re-organized into 4 x platoon companies. It is not our doctrine though, that was a commander who felt the best COA available to him was a fourth platoon. Re-organizing for a mission/operation is different than having a standard organization.

3 or 4 rifle platoons in a company, both options have good and not so good points.

As for the airborne capability, very good point, if we don't have an aircraft capability to deliver 600 man battalion in one drop, maybe we need to really look at what parachuting means to our operations.

I still do see parachute as a SOF method of insertion and recce elements (like pathfinders) who may need to free fall into enemy lines (or areas not occupied by coalition forces).

 
ArmyRick said:
Fake penguin,

I am aware that some of the BG for A-stan re-organized into 4 x platoon companies. It is not our doctrine though, that was a commander who felt the best COA available to him was a fourth platoon. Re-organizing for a mission/operation is different than having a standard organization.

3 or 4 rifle platoons in a company, both options have good and not so good points.

As for the airborne capability, very good point, if we don't have an aircraft capability to deliver 600 man battalion in one drop, maybe we need to really look at what parachuting means to our operations.

OK I understand were your coming from now, your right re-organizing for a mission/operation is different than having a standard organization.

I still do see parachute as a SOF method of insertion and recce elements (like pathfinders) who may need to free fall into enemy lines (or areas not occupied by coalition forces).
 
ArmyRick I understand were your coming from now, your right  re-organizing for a mission/operation is different than having a standard organization.
 
If you are going to have 4 platoons in a company you may as well just have 4 companies.  Doctrinally, we are supposed to have four companies anyways.  this is all irrelevant though because we don't have the pers to properly staff three rifle companies much less a fourth one.  Airborne forces still have their uses its just we have no use for them in Canada outside SOF.

I like the way the French use their Airborne forces.  They are jumpers but they are also expeditionary focused and rapidly deployable, not only in a jump capacity.    Something that we would use CSOR for is what they use their Airborne forces for.  For instance, they just seized the Bangui Airport in Central African Republic yesterday using pre-positioned Airborne forces from 8e RPIMa in Gabon because of a Coup D'Etat in the CAR. 

"France Sends Troops to Central African Republic"

http://www.dw.de/france-sends-troops-to-central-african-republic/a-16695739

 
For a strict defense of Canada aspect, I disagree on a SOF only application.

Nothing quicker to get folks to the arctic than dropping them.


However I will agree that I think beyond that, airborne means of deployment is not really useful for conventional operations in the size that Canada can/will afford to do.

A Jump Coy can be dropped to secure a airfield in support of a NEO or other tasking, which I think is a waste of SOF assets - but unless Canada makes a large investment in air-frames - the use of non SOF jump capabilities in Canada will remain limited and thus not utilized.

 
No.  We will never have a FE Airborne BG in the foreseeable future.  However, a FG Airborne Bn would allow the Army to concentrate resources in one location to create reinforced Coy Gps for FE.  With concentration of effort, fewer people would be required as depth simply to sustain the capability for use in a FG environment - instead the Army could build the missing enablers (like engr eqpt).  And there is no need for new units.  Use an existing 3rd Bn.

The hurdle would be capbadge politics as only one of the brigades would get to play home to this capability.  That would mean two regiments lose maroon berets.
 
1 Can Para BN new capbadge (I don't think anyone has the political will to bring back the CAR in name as well).

Strip the 3rd's of their Para coy's and move them (PCoy) to Petwawa -- move all the Royals to Gagetown ;)

 
KevinB said:
1 Can Para BN new capbadge (I don't think anyone has the political will to bring back the CAR in name as well).

Strip the 3rd's of their Para coy's and move them (PCoy) to Petwawa -- move all the Royals to Gagetown ;)

Not a bad idea.
 
The then Para Bn would be free to use A/C from Trenton, and support SOF operations for NEO and other roles, as well as conventional requirements.

This idea got tossed about in 2005 shortly after the CAR disbandment - and I think is lingering in a few minds, as the P Coy's by themselves are just a method of retaining capability - not really employable on their own.

 
There's no capbadge on a paratrooper's helmet.... just a little puke inside it (dribbling down his face just before the green light comes on)  ;D
 
RoyalDrew said:
Also, a parachute capability is really only useful if you have the supporting arms able to back it up. 

I think this is the crux of the Canadian issue.  It is easy to train dudes to jump out of an airplane in order to get to work.  Its the support that we lack and where the details lie.

Unless Canada has a defined requirement to have an Parachute capabiltiy in the conventional army then there is no point to developing the specialist capability in the supporting arms or the RCAF.

The former CDS did back-peddle a bit when he commited to a parachute capable bn in Trenton - he later revised he statement to have a SAR bent for operations in the North.

A former RSM once told the assembled officers of 3VP that it would be a huge mistake for the Army to get rid of the jump companies (and sprinkling of berets in the support arms).  His logic was that it gave troops something to strive towards.  Without a requirement this is probably the only current reason to continue with the PPF course based on fiscal limitations.

In my opinion it is essential that we keep the current jump companies spread out amongst the brigades; based on that soldiers want something to strive for but frequently the 'better half' gets a vote when it comes to living in Edmonton or Petawawa.  If we start specializing too much we become a bit more american; I cringe if we end up in a situation where 1 CMBG becomes the heavy brigade and 2 CMBG the light brigade - what will that do for the morale across the Army?  Or do we make 2 CMBG home of all the 3rd battalions and start spreading the love around to 1 and 5 (SLT could be an issue).

Sorry for the ramble.  Situation no change I guess.
 
little jim said:
I think this is the crux of the Canadian issue.  It is easy to train dudes to jump out of an airplane in order to get to work.  Its the support that we lack and where the details lie.

Unless Canada has a defined requirement to have an Parachute capabiltiy in the conventional army then there is no point to developing the specialist capability in the supporting arms or the RCAF.

The former CDS did back-peddle a bit when he commited to a parachute capable bn in Trenton - he later revised he statement to have a SAR bent for operations in the North.

A former RSM once told the assembled officers of 3VP that it would be a huge mistake for the Army to get rid of the jump companies (and sprinkling of berets in the support arms).  His logic was that it gave troops something to strive towards.  Without a requirement this is probably the only current reason to continue with the PPF course based on fiscal limitations.

In my opinion it is essential that we keep the current jump companies spread out amongst the brigades; based on that soldiers want something to strive for but frequently the 'better half' gets a vote when it comes to living in Edmonton or Petawawa.  If we start specializing too much we become a bit more american; I cringe if we end up in a situation where 1 CMBG becomes the heavy brigade and 2 CMBG the light brigade - what will that do for the morale across the Army?  Or do we make 2 CMBG home of all the 3rd battalions and start spreading the love around to 1 and 5 (SLT could be an issue).

Sorry for the ramble.  Situation no change I guess.

I think the idea that soldiers need something to strive for is a weak argument for maintaining a jump capability.  It is an argument that is based purely on emotion and nostalgia and not on operational necessity and doctrine. 

As for specialization, I really don't see a problem with it as long as it serves a specific purpose.  I see your reference to the Americans and how you do not want to become like them little jim.  I hesitate to compare us to the American's like so many because we are so much smaller then they are.  fact is we are kind of an anamoly in that we are one of the few armies that don't specialize our forces.  Compare us to lets say France, the UK, Italy, Spain, Australia, the Dutch, Germany, etc... and all of these nations specialize their forces.  More interesting is the Dutch and the Australians who both are very similar to us yet they maintain specialist capabilities within their armed forces.

The Australians for instance have 1 Heavy Bde, 1 Medium Bde and 1 Light Bde.  Within their Light Bde they maintain an amphibious assault Bn, a parachute Bn (which they are considering doing away with) and a light infantry Bn.  This means they can force generate airborne and amphibious task forces because in some cases deploying a mechanized force might not be suitable, especially if it is an initial entry force.  It is also an acknowledgement by them that they don't have the proper amount of vehicles to fully equip three brigades which is something that we can also not do.

The Dutch also maintain a light force with their 11th Air-mobile Bde and they can be deployed within 7 to 20 days of being called out not too mention the Dutch also maintain the Dutch Marine Corps which is also rapidly deployable. 

Now does Canada need these specialized forces?  Maybe not because we aren't a regional power like Australia is and we don't have former colonial interests like the Dutch do but I would ask a question of are we getting the most bang for our buck?  A lot of things we use CSOR for other countries will use Airborne or Amphibious forces for.  On top of this we have three infantry battalions full of guys that costa substantial amount of money in salaries and training but really don't offer a whole lot in terms of power projection to the army.  So really the whole point of determining whether we need to specialize our force or continue maintain what we refer to as a "general purpose combat capability" should hinge on:

1.  Do we offer the government enough solutions; and
2.  Are we being fiscally responsible with our force structure or is their a better way to achieve economy of effort and optimize our forces to achieve more bang for our buck?


 
:ditto:

KevinB said:
1 Can Para BN new capbadge (I don't think anyone has the political will to bring back the CAR in name as well).

Strip the 3rd's of their Para coy's and move them (PCoy) to Petwawa -- move all the Royals to Gagetown ;)
I doubt there is appetite to create a new Bn.  Unless your plan is that the third Bns cease to exist, I see this as a non-starter.
 
RoyalDrew said:
a parachute Bn (which they are considering doing away with)

They already have.  See the article I linked to above.
 
Infanteer said:
They already have.  See the article I linked to above.

Ack, just had a look, so they are doing away with Airborne IOT focus on amphibious ops.  Makes sense from an Australian standpoint I suppose especially since they have made substantial investments in developing an amphibious capability.
 
RoyalDrew said:
Airborne Engineers jump on Timbuktu airfield

79220448522607485645651.jpg

I'm surprised they have equipment loads at higher altitude then jumpers...

I hear the Army may have new plans for the LIBs (again), including the PPF capability, anyone involved in that ?
 
Jungle said:
I'm surprised they have equipment loads at higher altitude then jumpers...

I'm sure the equipment loads will adhere to the "bottom jumper has the right of way" rule :p

little jim said:
In my opinion it is essential that we keep the current jump companies spread out amongst the brigades; based on that soldiers want something to strive for

Within the Battalions they can strive for Recce Platoon, etc or if they want more there is CANSOFCOM.  As well,  only those within the 3rd Battalions can strive for the Jump Coy.  Those in the 1st and 2nd Battalions can hope they get the occasional slot offered for B Para and end up not using that skill; unless they eventually are posted to a 3rd BN, CFLAWC or CANSOF.  Other things they can strive for is PPF(I know pers from Mech Battalions have gotten the course),  US Army Ranger course,  etc.

Lots of options for keen individuals to strive for that don't include the jump coy.
 
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