Freedom Convoy protests [Split from All things 2019-nCoV]

[brihard]

Well, there was a large crowd of people firmly ensconsed on the front lawn of Parliament, some calling for the outright overthrow of the Federal government, with no effective police control.

There was definitely enough people to try to storm Parliament, even with a portion of them involved.

May not have been a significant risk, but low probability/high impact things can/do happen, so discounting that possibility completely is naive.

It's fundamentally a judgement call, which the people with the authority to do it made. If people don't like it they can express their discontent with their votes.

Fundamentally seems to be that the City lost the plot early, had no real plan to get it back, and doesn't seem to have made any actual plan. I'd be curious to see how many officers were actually required to clear the streets, but I think it was a lot less then 1800 additional cops.

Maybe not a lot less. I counted 20 different public order units, give or take one or two. That’s not far off a thousand right there, maybe more. Then there were numerous tactical teams for overwatch, a lot of uniforms to take custody of and process prisoners passed back by the public order units, a lot of uniforms (day shift and night shift) to hold and secure the ground we had taken back, lots of members on outer cordon to stop or control traffic into the area generally, a bunch in various logistical roles, lots of extra uniforms as a protective presence at various federal sites in Ottawa… I don’t have a number to put to this, but 1800 isn’t out of the ballpark. And there were still normal non-convoy related policing requirements on top of all that. It was a lot. I’ve never seen anything like it.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

I think the Metro Police horses helped. I don't really understand it, but I witnessed the calming effect they had on angry people.

I guess that goes for Police Horses as well

 

[medicineman]

I think the Metro Police horses helped. I don't really understand it, but I witnessed the calming effect they had on angry people.

To paraphrase Kevin Bridges, "calm down, or you're getting stomped"

 

[Navy_Pete]

Maybe not a lot less. I counted 20 different public order units, give or take one or two. That’s not far off a thousand right there, maybe more. Then there were numerous tactical teams for overwatch, a lot of uniforms to take custody of and process prisoners passed back by the public order units, a lot of uniforms (day shift and night shift) to hold and secure the ground we had taken back, lots of members on outer cordon to stop or control traffic into the area generally, a bunch in various logistical roles, lots of extra uniforms as a protective presence at various federal sites in Ottawa… I don’t have a number to put to this, but 1800 isn’t out of the ballpark. And there were still normal non-convoy related policing requirements on top of all that. It was a lot. I’ve never seen anything like it.

According to their site, they have just under 1500 officers in the OPS (maybe 800-1000 actual useful bodies for a few day shifts), so guess I'm curious how many additional police came from extra jurisdictions.

I think I saw there was OPP, police from QC (Gantinea/SQ?), the horse units from Toronto, some RCMP, but from an outsiders perspective, seems like they may have had enough people to clear them out if they had done it after the initial weekend without requiring so much drama.

 

[QV]

Well, there was a large crowd of people firmly ensconsed on the front lawn of Parliament, some calling for the outright overthrow of the Federal government, with no effective police control.

There was definitely enough people to try to storm Parliament, even with a portion of them involved.

May not have been a significant risk, but low probability/high impact things can/do happen, so discounting that possibility completely is naive.

It's fundamentally a judgement call, which the people with the authority to do it made. If people don't like it they can express their discontent with their votes.

Fundamentally seems to be that the City lost the plot early, had no real plan to get it back, and doesn't seem to have made any actual plan. I'd be curious to see how many officers were actually required to clear the streets, but I think it was a lot less then 1800 additional cops.

Do you think there was a real risk of overthrowing the government? Is a large crowd waving Canadian flags gathered in front of Parliament a legit threat to enact the EA?

If everyone is ok with the EA enactment in this instance including the bank account freezing, then I look forward to it's application in all future instances of similar (subjective) gravity under different governments.

 

[brihard]

According to their site, they have just under 1500 officers in the OPS (maybe 800-1000 actual useful bodies for a few day shifts), so guess I'm curious how many additional police came from extra jurisdictions.

I think I saw there was OPP, police from QC (Gantinea/SQ?), the horse units from Toronto, some RCMP, but from an outsiders perspective, seems like they may have had enough people to clear them out if they had done it after the initial weekend without requiring so much drama.

The overwhelming majority of police are not trained or equipped for public order work. The public order units I mentioned were just the actual trained members who can go in and engage with crowds in a controlled and disciplined fashion, and who were properly equipped to do so if violence starts and projectiles start getting thrown. Off the top of my head I saw OPS, OPP, Ottawa RCMP, Ontario RCMP, Quebec RCMP, Alberta RCMP, Durham, Peel, Halton, Toronto, Quebec provincial police, I think Sudbury, Saskatoon, I think Regina, Edmonton, Calgary, and Vancouver. I believe I’m forgetting a couple; the number 18 sticks out in my mind.

OPS has a bit under 1300 police officers. Sounds like a lot, but some are always off sick, parental leave, etc. A bunch are in various investigative or support units. A bit under half of the uniformed total are on front line, such as (but not limited to) general patrol- 625~ before soft vacancies like sick, parental, or light/accommodated duties etc. The patrol members are divided into six shifts, one or two of which are on at any given time, depending on time of day (they have some overlaps at shift change and afternoon/evening). Those front line members have to cover what is by far Canada’s largest municipal jurisdiction by area; Ottawa’s turf is very large. They have to still go to domestics, collisions, and robberies out in Cumberland, Vars, Constance Bay, Manotick, Osgoode, Stittsville… normal human stupidity doesn’t stop just because a bunch of raging idiots are in town. Though obviously ever member they had who could conceivably be available was pulled in to downtown.



So yeah- I believe that, after the convoy had had a weekend to dig in and occupy downtown, something in the range of those numbers was needed. They also needed enough that if the convoy successfully rallied more people to come join in the face of impending police action, there would have been more bodies.

Bear in mind also that at the last moment, the convoy crowd mostly turned and fled, and those who stuck around didn’t actually put up much of a fight in real physical terms. Lots of pushing and shoving, but I believe they were surprised when we actually moved on them, and that many had actually drank enough kook aid that they thought we would take their side. I saw real surprise and dismay when they realized they were getting forcibly cleared out. We could not predict that that would be the case; there was a lot of reason to believe many were gearing up for a fight. I’m very glad the actions didn’t match the bluster.

 

[OceanBonfire]

RCMP spokeswoman Robin Percival said in a statement the force withheld the information in question since it could “reasonably be expected to threaten the safety” of officers.

RCMP refused release of badge numbers, fearing convoy supporters would dox officers

Internal documents show the RCMP refused to release the badge numbers of officers who cleared 'Freedom Convoy' protesters from the Ambassador Bridge last winter, citing a risk of violence from their supporters.

www.ctvnews.ca

RCMP refused badge number release, fearing convoy protesters would dox officers | Globalnews.ca

The RCMP have been accused of shielding the identities of officers subject to complaints of overly aggressive behaviour, such as during protests in British Columbia.

globalnews.ca

 

[Navy_Pete]

Do you think there was a real risk of overthrowing the government? Is a large crowd waving Canadian flags gathered in front of Parliament a legit threat to enact the EA?

If everyone is ok with the EA enactment in this instance including the bank account freezing, then I look forward to it's application in all future instances of similar (subjective) gravity under different governments.

I think there were a significant number of people who believed they could legitimately force out the democratically elected government. I know there are still pods of them floating around the area, and doing stupid things like trying to arrest police in Barrie (?).

Crowd dynamics and psychology are a very strange thing (which we don't really understand), you see people get regularly caught up in them and do very uncharacteristic things like riot after a Stanley cup (or alternately try and charge gunmen).

I imagine if you looked at the Jan 6th crowd in the US the average person probably was just an average person, but for whatever reason was enough lunatics there to push them into storming the capitol, trying to lynch people, and getting people killed.

I'm glad it ended peacefully, but also could have easily gone sideways if some people decided to go pokey chest instead.

 

[OldSolduer]

I think there were a significant number of people who believed they could legitimately force out the democratically elected government. I know there are still pods of them floating around the area, and doing stupid things like trying to arrest police in Barrie (?).

Crowd dynamics and psychology are a very strange thing (which we don't really understand), you see people get regularly caught up in them and do very uncharacteristic things like riot after a Stanley cup (or alternately try and charge gunmen).

I imagine if you looked at the Jan 6th crowd in the US the average person probably was just an average person, but for whatever reason was enough lunatics there to push them into storming the capitol, trying to lynch people, and getting people killed.

I'm glad it ended peacefully, but also could have easily gone sideways if some people decided to go pokey chest instead.

The mob mentality should never be underestimated. We see it constantly.

 

[QV]

I think there were a significant number of people who believed they could legitimately force out the democratically elected government. I know there are still pods of them floating around the area, and doing stupid things like trying to arrest police in Barrie (?).

Crowd dynamics and psychology are a very strange thing (which we don't really understand), you see people get regularly caught up in them and do very uncharacteristic things like riot after a Stanley cup (or alternately try and charge gunmen).

I imagine if you looked at the Jan 6th crowd in the US the average person probably was just an average person, but for whatever reason was enough lunatics there to push them into storming the capitol, trying to lynch people, and getting people killed.

I'm glad it ended peacefully, but also could have easily gone sideways if some people decided to go pokey chest instead.

You’re dancing around the issue. What a handful of nuts believe is irrelevant. There was never a real threat to over throw the government, neither here nor the Jan 6th debacle down south.

This is the new gaslight. When a large group of disaffected voters is pissed off and showing it, they’re a threat to democracy.

 

[Navy_Pete]

You’re dancing around the issue. What a handful of nuts believe is irrelevant. There was never a real threat to over throw the government, neither here nor the Jan 6th debacle down south.

This is the new gaslight. When a large group of disaffected voters is pissed off and showing it, they’re a threat to democracy.

I'm not at all; and there were a lot more than a handful.

You only need a few pissed off people with intentions to get a mob of generally frustrated people to start flipping cars and burning things.

If you look at any of the academic studies done of crowds where things have gone wrong, it really can be traced down to a single thing sparking a group of people to stampede/riot etc. You are really naive if you don't think there were people there that would have loved for it to have turned violent, and take all the dissaffected voters for a ride.

 

[mariomike]

The mob mentality should never be underestimated. We see it constantly.

"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.”
George Carlin

 

[Navy_Pete]

"Never underestimate the power of stupid people in large groups.”
George Carlin

I don't even think it's stupid people; lot of smart individuals do stupid things in large groups.

The leaders of the convoy don't seem to have a grasp of basic Canadian civics, but don't think they are any dumber/smarter than the average person. I do think that the Freedom Convoy was collectively stupid though, and their behaviour backed it up.

On their own, I doubt they would be shitting on sidewalks or peeing on monuments, but in the big collective, others were doing it so suddenly became okay for the group.

 

[RangerRay]

No doubt this could be self-serving babble from Mayor Watson and PM Trudeau, but it still looks like Premier Ford has some ‘splainin’ to do. Especially now that he has come out in favour of enacting the EA.

Trudeau accused Ontario Premier Doug Ford of ‘hiding’ during convoy protests, new documents show

Minutes of a phone call revealed during Emergencies Act inquiry show that the mayor and prime minister expressed their frustration with Ontario’s leadership during convoy protests

www.theglobeandmail.com

 

[QV]

I'm not at all; and there were a lot more than a handful.

You only need a few pissed off people with intentions to get a mob of generally frustrated people to start flipping cars and burning things.

If you look at any of the academic studies done of crowds where things have gone wrong, it really can be traced down to a single thing sparking a group of people to stampede/riot etc. You are really naive if you don't think there were people there that would have loved for it to have turned violent, and take all the dissaffected voters for a ride.

No one is arguing whether a few can lead a crowd to do bad things. None of what happened justified the EA. Neither does a riot or car flipping. News flash: there are violent people around everywhere... still no EA required.

 

[QV]

On their own, I doubt they would be shitting on sidewalks or peeing on monuments, but in the big collective, others were doing it so suddenly became okay for the group.

We know how the CAF can be characterized as an organization of sexual miscreants, or police as abusing their powers, when we allow the actions of a tiny fraction to label the whole. Of course we all know this isn’t true, it’s only applied when someone needs to degenerate a large group, like your statement about “the group” shitting on sidewalks and pissing on monuments.

 

[Eaglelord17]

Just remember the creators of the act decided not to use it during the Oka Crisis, which could have very easily been a battle on Canadian soil. This 'crisis' falls far short of what the Oka Crisis was in my mind.

 

[Jarnhamar]

No one is arguing whether a few can lead a crowd to do bad things. None of what happened justified the EA. Neither does a riot or car flipping. News flash: there are violent people around everywhere... still no EA required.

At the end of the day this whole inquiry is a waste of time and money.

The government said the police asked for
the EA, the police said no we didn't.

When the LPC gets bored of humoring the inquiry they're just going to pull out a card that says NaTiOnAl SeCuRiTy and that's the end of it.

Evidence why we needed to ban guns? Sorry, NaTiOnAl SeCuRiTy.

Something about COVID?
NaTiOnAl SeCuRiTy.

 

[RangerRay]

Now it’s sounding like CSIS found no evidence of foreign funding or influence. That is one of the main reasons the Feds used to invoke the EA

‘Freedom Convoy’ didn’t need help from foreigners to overwhelm Ottawa police, inquiry told — Toronto Star

Former Ottawa police chief Peter Sloly Sloly resigned in February after being roundly criticized over his handling of the “Freedom Convoy” protest.

apple.news

 

[Winds]

Now it’s sounding like CSIS found no evidence of foreign funding or influence. That is one of the main reasons the Feds used to invoke the EA

‘Freedom Convoy’ didn’t need help from foreigners to overwhelm Ottawa police, inquiry told — Toronto Star

Former Ottawa police chief Peter Sloly Sloly resigned in February after being roundly criticized over his handling of the “Freedom Convoy” protest.

apple.news

Well, the Deputy Director of FINTRAC testified that there was no suspicious link to foreign funding back in February.

‘Freedom convoy’ fundraising: No rise in suspicious transaction reports due to protests, financial watchdog says

The deputy director of Fintrac testified Thursday as the National Security Committee probed violent extremism and those funding it, against a backdrop of protests unfolding across the country against vaccine mandates and health restrictions.

www.thestar.com