Freedom Convoy protests [Split from All things 2019-nCoV]

[mariomike]

My guess is that Ford, per se, has little to no strategic vision about Ontario and Canada because he doesn't think or care about anything after the next season. He can do that, successfully, I think, because he knows that the Ontario voters have very, very short memories and their votes are fairly easily bought - remember "buck-a-beer?"

"Buck-a-beer" was one thing. That's politics.

As far as public safety goes, when he was a councillor, Canada's largest city removed his brother's authority as mayor in case of emergency.

The vote was 41-2.

Rob and Doug were the two who voted against it.

Public safety should be more important than politics, in my opinion.

​

Please, on all that is holy, save us from the partisan process of the US.

I hope so too.

 

[brihard]

Has anyone been following the witness testimony at the commission so far?

Attempting to get caught up late in the day. Today’s has been very interesting- lots of internal communications between various officials are being disclosed. A ton of dirty laundry is being aired.

Some very prescient discussion on the logistical difficulty of removing the trucks has been made public. Also, it looks like, but for Trudeau invoking the Emergencies Act on Monday, Feb 14th, that same day we would have seen Ottawa city council vote on a motion to invoke s. 275 NDA, Aid to the Civil Power. A motion was being drafted to that effect on the 12th, and the text message referencing this reads that the necessary support was present at Council to pass it. Wow.

EDIT TO ADD: According to CTV reporter MacKenzie Gray, that text about Aid to Civil Power was to Bill Blair’s chief of staff, from Ottawa city councillor (and, incidentally, Afghanistan veteran) Matt Luloff. So this is someone who would have a more realistic grasp of CAF’s capabilities and assets than your average councillor.

 

[RangerRay]

Would it be safe to say, based on what has been disclosed now, the EA would not have been enacted had the Province played ball and the City had a plan?

 

[Lumber]

Would it be safe to say, based on what has been disclosed now, the EA would not have been enacted had the Province played ball and the City had a plan?

No. It was Trudeau's intent all along to make this his defining moment. He would have found a way to delay any action by the City in order to create the justification for his enacting of the EA.

 

[brihard]

Would it be safe to say, based on what has been disclosed now, the EA would not have been enacted had the Province played ball and the City had a plan?

I think we’re a ways away yet from anything conclusive being “safe to say”.

I’m confident that, from the first hour they arrived and began blocking any locations, police on the ground had all the legal authorities necessary to prevent the occupation in the first place, and to move vehicles along, forcibly remove them, and arrest and criminally charge anyone who obstructed this. What I don’t know yet, and remain open to being convinced of one way or another, is whether, by that point in mid February, police still had the logistical ability to effect the physical clearance of the blockades. It’s already becoming apparent that heavy wreckers simply were not available to be contracted in anything close to adequate numbers.

Obviously there are other aspects of the EA invocation that we’ll hear much more about too. I’m very interested to hear hopefully more about the intelligence and threat assessments, or at least what part of it is declassified.

This will be ongoing for weeks. I’ll reserve forming and expressing an opinion on the EA until at least everything that’s going to come out does and ai have a chance to digest it.

 

[Good2Golf]

Would it be safe to say, based on what has been disclosed now, the EA would not have been enacted had the Province played ball and the City had a plan?

Are you buying into the conveniently set-up “It’s all Ford’s fault!” narrative?

Well done, Team Justin…the masses (fully informed by the likes of the Toronto Star) are sharpening their pitchforks for Doug Ford, so it would seem.

 

[RangerRay]

I think we’re a ways away yet from anything conclusive being “safe to say”.

I’m confident that, from the first hour they arrived and began blocking any locations, police on the ground had all the legal authorities necessary to prevent the occupation in the first place, and to move vehicles along, forcibly remove them, and arrest and criminally charge anyone who obstructed this. What I don’t know yet, and remain open to being convinced of one way or another, is whether, by that point in mid February, police still had the logistical ability to effect the physical clearance of the blockades. It’s already becoming apparent that heavy wreckers simply were not available to be contracted in anything close to adequate numbers.

Obviously there are other aspects of the EA invocation that we’ll hear much more about too. I’m very interested to hear hopefully more about the intelligence and threat assessments, or at least what part of it is declassified.

This will be ongoing for weeks. I’ll reserve forming and expressing an opinion on the EA until at least everything that’s going to come out does and ai have a chance to digest it.

I guess that’s why I said “based on what has been disclosed so far” would that have been a valid COA for the Feds if the Province wasn’t providing the resources to the City as requested and if the City wasn’t such a disaster?

But you’re absolutely right. There is more to come out, especially the intelligence and threat assessments. If the government doesn’t provide receipts, they will look like even bigger fools than they have previously shown themselves to be.

 

[RangerRay]

Are you buying into the conveniently set-up “It’s all Ford’s fault!” narrative?

Well done, Team Justin…the masses (fully informed by the likes of the Toronto Star) are sharpening their pitchforks for Doug Ford, so it would seem.

Not yet. Still more info to come out. If that’s the case though, they won’t be looking any better than the Feds if they were in a position to provide the resources the City needed to end that shitshow sooner without the EA.

 

[Good2Golf]

Not yet. Still more info to come out. If that’s the case though, they won’t be looking any better than the Feds if they were in a position to provide the resources the City needed to end that shitshow sooner without the EA.

If there is a confirmed, formal request by the City of Ottawa to the Province of Ontario, that was formally declined/refused, that would be telling. Right now, it seems no more than verbal recounting of recollections…I believe we deserve more than just these non-evidentiary memories of how things were supposed to have gone down.

 

[mariomike]

Whatever the politics, it was good to see the police finally take back control of the streets.

 

[Good2Golf]

Whatever the politics, it was good to see the police finally take back control of the streets.

It was ludicrous that it took so long.

 

[Jarnhamar]

L

Conversely, I seem to recall Trudeau declaring the whole lot of them racists, even before they hit the Manitoba/Ontario border (I cannot seem to find the news clip, so I am fully prepared to eat humble pie on this point.

Yup. Said they're mostly racists, mysoginists, and science deniers.

 

[Kat Stevens]

L

Yup. Said they're mostly racists, mysoginists, and science deniers.

Don't forget fringe element with unacceptable views, whatever those are.

 

[QV]

So far in my brief perusal of some of the witness testimony I gather the following made for a dangerous and volatile situation of national emergency and importance:
1. whirl pools, hot tubs, bouncy castles;
2. bbqs and improperly stored propane bottles;
3. dancing and bands particularly unsafe stages on the back of trucks
4. "festival" like activities without a festival permit
5. copious noise bylaws and parking infractions
6. a run on camping gear and Canadian flags from nearby stores
7. very junior public employees who are connected to politicians or senior bureaucrats complaining
8. city denial of permits for porta potties
9. terrible coordination and communication between various agencies/leaders

I'm still waiting for the testimony detailing the immediate national threat to the very nature of Canada's sovereign existence, but I guess that could be coming yet. Granted, I only listened to a few...

 

[mariomike]

Politics aside, the police - finally- took back control of the streets.

Too bad that it took so long.

It was ludicrous that it took so long.

 

[Lumber]

I'm still waiting for the testimony detailing the immediate national threat to the very nature of Canada's sovereign existence, but I guess that could be coming yet. Granted, I only listened to a few...

A "threat to the very nature of Canada's sovereign existence" is not the sole criteria/justification for the enactment of the EA, which you should know, since you copied and paste the criteria the other day.

 

[brihard]

So far in my brief perusal of some of the witness testimony I gather the following made for a dangerous and volatile situation of national emergency and importance:
1. whirl pools, hot tubs, bouncy castles;
2. bbqs and improperly stored propane bottles;
3. dancing and bands particularly unsafe stages on the back of trucks
4. "festival" like activities without a festival permit
5. copious noise bylaws and parking infractions
6. a run on camping gear and Canadian flags from nearby stores
7. very junior public employees who are connected to politicians or senior bureaucrats complaining
8. city denial of permits for porta potties
9. terrible coordination and communication between various agencies/leaders

I'm still waiting for the testimony detailing the immediate national threat to the very nature of Canada's sovereign existence, but I guess that could be coming yet. Granted, I only listened to a few...

Sure; you’ve given every indication that you made up your mind on this months ago. I’m sure none of us were sitting here thinking a couple days of testimony at the inquiry would have changed that.

You likely will not see any testimony about the threat to ‘Canada’s sovereign existence’, because that’s a fictitious threshold that isn’t part of the law, that nobody has asserted, and that you’ve made up for the purpose of your post.

We have several weeks of testimony yet. In the fullness of time we’ll see if the government establishes that there was, in fact, a “public order emergency” as described in SOR 2022/20, that it posed “a threat to the security of Canada”, and that it met the criteria of being a “national emergency”. Those are the relevant statutory boxes you’ll want to see if the government ticks. My mind remains open.

 

[QV]

Don't hold your breath.

 

[Navy_Pete]

Sure; you’ve given every indication that you made up your mind on this months ago. I’m sure none of us were sitting here thinking a couple days of testimony at the inquiry would have changed that.

You likely will not see any testimony about the threat to ‘Canada’s sovereign existence’, because that’s a fictitious threshold that isn’t part of the law, that nobody has asserted, and that you’ve made up for the purpose of your post.

We have several weeks of testimony yet. In the fullness of time we’ll see if the government establishes that there was, in fact, a “public order emergency” as described in SOR 2022/20, that it posed “a threat to the security of Canada”, and that it met the criteria of being a “national emergency”. Those are the relevant statutory boxes you’ll want to see if the government ticks. My mind remains open.

Well, there was a large crowd of people firmly ensconsed on the front lawn of Parliament, some calling for the outright overthrow of the Federal government, with no effective police control.

There was definitely enough people to try to storm Parliament, even with a portion of them involved.

May not have been a significant risk, but low probability/high impact things can/do happen, so discounting that possibility completely is naive.

It's fundamentally a judgement call, which the people with the authority to do it made. If people don't like it they can express their discontent with their votes.

Fundamentally seems to be that the City lost the plot early, had no real plan to get it back, and doesn't seem to have made any actual plan. I'd be curious to see how many officers were actually required to clear the streets, but I think it was a lot less then 1800 additional cops.

 

[mariomike]

Fundamentally seems to be that the City lost the plot early, had no real plan to get it back, and doesn't seem to have made any actual plan. I'd be curious to see how many officers were actually required to clear the streets, but I think it was a lot less then 1800 additional cops.

I think the Metro Police horses helped. I don't really understand it, but I witnessed the calming effect they had on angry people.