Danny Williams lowers the Canadian Flag

[kellywmj]

What is this, some sort of ham fisted attempt censure me? My points are factually correct. Were you not offended by Mr. Williams actions? Do you think his motives for doing so are honourable? What he is doing is exactly the game Quebec has been playing for years. All Ottawa is suggesting is that now that Newfoundland has some resource revenue, maybe its time to start paying your own way! In the real world, when a person secures employment, the welfare cheques stop! Why is this scenario any different?

 

[Wizard of OZ]

majoor

Could not tell if that was directed at me our not, but in someways i see your point.  But the Federal heath care is one of the things that make this country great.  It was brougt in by Tommy Douglas you know the greatest Canadian.... I agree that the feds have to start to focus on the things of national priority instead of regional.  But i think that the Provinces have to held accountable to someone. If not Provinces like AB and Ont would run rampt on the weaker ones like Man, Sask, NS, Nfl and PEI.  QC is not as strong as they like to think they are, alot of the tech sector and manufacturing sectors have relocated to Ont due to the likeleness of conflicts in that prov.  

kellymj

I see some of your points.  But to say they should be on thier knees is not a welcome statement.  Yes they have gone through some hard economic times.  So have all the other provinces with no exceptions.  I think you draw to harsh a line.  Newfoundland has been and always will be a resource based economy.  It does not have the population to support a manufacturing sector to that of Ont or BC or QC.  It is therefore a boom bust economy.  When times are good they are really good and when times are bad well lets just say they suck.  AB is the same way.  Until regional disparity is solved this will continue.  

I do see your point on the tantrum but isn't that what politics is all about watch CSPAN for an hr and you will think we elected children.  

The thing i don't agree with is the taking down of the flag, other then that let them bicker and bit... at each other.

A deal will be reached and all the posturing will stop until the next issue.  

And you are right all they did was take a page out of Quebecs play book (had it translated) and ran with it.

Bograt

I could see nothing that would be held as overly offensive,(but then i am not from the Rock) kelly just needs to use more tact in expressing his opinion, on an open form.


I saw much worse in some posts a few pages ago...

 

[Bograt]

"Please sir... may I have some more?â ?

If you are seriously interested in this discussion may I suggest you listen to the Rex Murphy comments and read the Crosbie letter. They are more articulate that I am.

<sterotypical Newfoundland wit on>
However if you want to get into a mudslinging match, tossing ignorance and prejudice around, I believe you will just end up "playing with yourself."
<sterotypical wit off>
:

 

[Bograt]

I am curious to know what would happened to Ont, PQ manufacuturing economies if:

1. We shut down Churchill Falls
2. Didn't provide the ore for smeltering steel
3. Didn't give fish to foreigners for trade relationships that benefited mainland suppliers.
4. Didn't provide the skilled labour to the oil sands or manufacturing plants

We need each other. This is not a slave/master relationship. Until this is realized there will be problems.

I found buddywashisnames' comments offensive- not because to I'm a Newfoundlander, but because I am Canadian. It is not because it slags a people, but because it ignores the issues.

If it is acceptable to toss regional disparities around I have a load I could toss about Vancouver Island.

 

[kellywmj]

Your Oliver Twist analogy appropriate, however in this rewrite of a classic, little Oliver has a 10 quid note in his pocket, and still wants his bowl of gruel! As far as ignorance and prejudice, I am not nor am I. I will concede my "on the knees" comment was out of line, but you must appreciate just how frustrating it is to see this sort of behavior. I can tell you, there is not much support for Mr. Williams actions out here. I can see how he is a bit of a hero out your way, local boy sticks it to Ottawa, but in most other areas its seen as selfish petulance.

 

[Bograt]

Let me apologize for my comments. I'm sure over a beer we would be able to sort this out.

William's is not doing this to gain favour in BC. All he is trying to do is hold the PM accountable for his actions. It is amazing how Williams has become the villain. It is the PM who lied, and the premier is holding him accountable. What is more disturbing- taking down the flag, or lying to represent it?

Williams is the same guy who donates his entire premier's salary to charities. Do you think Mr. Martin does that?

Do you think BC would be outraged if it lost 1 billion dollars to Alberta ever year for decades, and the federal government did nothing to rectify it? Do you think BC would be pissed if it lost its entire salmon industry in one day as the result of federal mismanagement? Imagine if Ontario overnight lost 600,000 jobs. That was the equivalent of what happened here. Hydro Quebec gains 850 million dollars a year just because of geography, and politics.

We are not a have not province, we are a keep not province.

 

[227Tech]

Well,

Newfoundland is apart of Atlantic Canada and not the Maritimes, but lets not try and pick pepper out of flea   S*** here. And I can't speak for the rest of the Atlantic or Maritime province, but I will offer my opinion as far as Newfoundland is concerned.


You are right to a certain extent, as small as it is.   Right now Newfoundland's finances are in serious trouble, and there's no disputing that Newfoundland has been receiving equalization payments for the last number of years.   But that's about as far as your "factually correct" POV (Point of View) goes.

If you want to talk about equalization payments and Newfoundland being an "East Bloc Basket case" you have to recognize and understand how it got that way.   You think Newfoundland is poor because there are no revenues flowing from the province?   You really believe that the only way Newfoundland can stay a float is through handouts from the larger provinces? If so you have to be standing at the height of ignorance and your views stand with no merit.

First we can stay a little on topic and talk about the Atlantic accord deal.

Check this site out
http://www.fairdealfornewfoundland.com/gildalton/

The reality however is that this principle of being the prime beneficiaries has not worked out the way it was intended. The various federal revenues represents 54% of the total government take. The provincial revenues represented 46%. However the federal government takes back 70% of the province's 46% in its claw back mechanism, which gives the federal government 86% and leaves the province with 14%. Right now with the claw back, for every $1.00 of benefit to Newfoundland, Ottawa benefits by $6.14. Even if Danny Williams gets what he has asked for, for every $1.00 dollar of benefit to Newfoundland, Ottawa will still get $1.17. Who then, with this split in revenues (86:14) is the prime beneficiary in actual fact? This situation is what Premier Danny Williams is so upset about and what Prime Minister Paul Martin agreed to change during the election. He agreed that Newfoundland and Nova Scotia would get 100% of the provincial revenues without the claw back.

Next we can't forget the money that Newfoundland has been losing through the Churchill falls deal.   right now it stands at $1 billion per year.   Multiply those figures (enter in appropriate amounts for each yea, in the millions anyways) since the deal has been struck and add that sum with what "should be" our off shore revenues, Newfoundland is getting royally screwed by the Fed's.


And another thing, you seem a little pissed off that your tax dollars are being blown to get Newfoundland's head above water, and you should be; but atleast identify and appreciate why that's happening. Like Bograt said, Newfoundland is not a have not Province, rather a keep not Province.   If you have any appreciation for what's going on here then you have to have a clue as to why Newfoundland isn't just taking the first crumb that Ottawa throw's it's way.   Right here, right now....enough is enough.

 

[kellywmj]

Churchill falls was a made in Newfoundland fiasco, and dont blame us for it, YOU (govt of Newfoundland) signed an awful deal with Hydro Quebec, so live with it!  The provincial government of the day accepted those terms, not Ottawa. As far as your off shore resources go, I agree! It should be yours! All I am saying is that, perhaps, the level of federal assistance should be reduced proportionately. If oil revenue is 500 million for the year, transfer payments should be reduced by the same number.

 

[227Tech]

For one thing, no one's blaming YOU (as in the rest of Canada).  The churchill Falls agreement was made by the government at that time because it had no other choice if it wanted to make any revenues at all.  The real blame that were allocating here is to the Federal government who only washed their hands from the deal because they were afarid of a large Quebec seperation  movement (sticking up for Newfoundland would not have helped that situation).  Knowing that the fed's were goin to stay out of it, the deal was extended for like 65 years I believe.  Now, to ask the question that's been asked again and again, If Quebec was losing $1 Billion per year to Newfoundland on any contract do you think that it wouldnt have been rectified years ago? Ofcourse it would have. 

This double standard is insane, all this money thats leaving the province has to be goin somewhere...is the Federal government not making millions or billions off Newfoundland resources? The province see's very little of this money so we have the government raping the province AND THEN  we have people like you who completely ostracize Newfoundland because it's poor and receives equalization.....how do you not see this injustice?

If you read the link or even the little quote I provided earlier you see the answer to you equalization issue. 

 

[Bograt]

Don't blame us for it?

If you ******* knew something about the issue.... get educated them come back.

We are Canadians in the confederation. This is not a us/them argument- to imply that it does clearly illustrates your ignorance. I apologized before but not now.

If oil revenue is 500 million for the year, transfer payments should be reduced by the same number.

That's what we want- however your ignorance has blinded you from the issues. You believe we are a bunch of slack arses wanting our oil and the dole.

What the feds we offering was a "eight year" arrangement that went back to status quo under a number of caveats including-
1. Until the per capital income of the province equal Ont.,
2. the price oil would be 25 per barrel.
3. Money could not be spent on anything but debt reduction

The current lifespan of the oil fields now discovered will be 25 years. (Doesn't include future discoveries) What the feds were suggesting is 100% of 25 dollar oil for essentially three years.

Moderator edit - Threats are not appropriate

 

[kellywmj]

Moderator edit - threats are not appropriate.

 

[Island Ryhno]

Just thought I'd drop something in here so we could show Ontario that it is practically alone in it's anti-Newfoundland stance, seems they feel the same way out west.

Wed, January 5, 2005

Rock star Williams' flag stunt about justice



By LICIA CORBELLA



It's pretty telling when more maple leaf flags could be found flapping about in Grand Forks, North Dakota last night by jubilant Canadian World Junior Hockey championship fans than in all of Newfoundland and Labrador.

But that's what happens when the prime minister of Canada lies to the people of the Rock.

After putting in a long 15-hour day in Ontario yesterday, Newfoundland Premier Danny Williams admitted that he loves Canada, loves hockey and loves our flag.

"I didn't do this lightly," says the charismatic Conservative premier of his decision two weeks ago to order Canadian flags removed from provincial government buildings.

His controversial and symbolic gesture was done to protest Prime Minister Paul Martin reneging on a deal made June 5, during the federal election campaign that Newfoundland could keep 100% of its provincial share of offshore oil revenues, rather than having most of it taken by the feds who then dole it out again as provincial "equalization" payments in an effort to keep the islanders beholden to the Liberal party.

Williams, who called on his cell phone from Ontario, says: "It's not intended to desecrate the flag."

He points out nobody is trampling the maple leaf or burning it.

"We took down the flag in the proper manner, folded it up nicely and put it away until the federal government starts to acknowledge that we're not second-class citizens in Newfoundland and Labrador.

"We've taken down the flag as a strong statement of protest. This is a significant milestone for our province. This is about survival."

And, as Williams explains, the so-called 100% of provincial revenues he's seeking will still give most of Newfoundland's resource revenues to the feds, so the charges of greed by the rest of Canada are simply "unfair."

Currently, Canada's most easterly province only gets to keep 14% of the revenues from its resources and the feds take a whopping 86% even though the Atlantic Accord signed back in the '80s with the Mulroney government promised the province a much larger share.

"The deal the prime minister agreed to on June 5 would move our 14% up to 47% with the feds still getting the lion's share."

Martin, desperate to hang onto as many seats as possible when it looked like he might not even win a minority last June, followed Conservative Party leader Stephen Harper's vow to give Newfoundland more rights over its own resources.

Now, the lying leader is dissing the province.

"The premier's actions are disrespectful of our most treasured national symbol," Martin said in a statement last month. "It is even more disappointing that (Williams) would use the Canadian flag in this way."

Curious comments coming from the leader of the Liberal government that used the Canadian flag as the excuse to steal more than $100 million of taxpayers' money in the sponsorship scandal which it doled out to Liberal-friendly advertising agencies in Quebec who in turn gave a lot back to the Liberal party.

But it's even more disgusting coming from Martin, whose company -- Canadian Steamship Lines (which he has since handed over to his sons), lowered the Canadian flag on seven of his tankers, hoisting up other flags of "convenience" in order to avoid paying Canadian taxes altogether and to avoid adhering to Canadian environmental and labour laws.

Martin has a lot of gall.

Williams, on the other hand, has a lot of guts.

What's more, he has the overwhelming support of the vast majority of Newfoundlanders.

The flag, say mostly central Canadian critics of Williams, should be above politics and above greed.

Right. Tell that to the federal Liberals and Paul Martin, who have used it or lowered it to benefit themselves politically and personally.

For most of us, the Canadian flag does not bring us money, it symbolizes justice and fairness -- something that is lacking for the good people of Newfoundland and Labrador, just like our flag.

 

[Wizard of OZ]

Hey Ryhno

I am from Ont and i did support Williams on the issue of his argument just not his methond.  Anti any province (except Quebec)  (that was a joke)  is wrong. 

We all serve under one flag  not 13 different ones.

It is sad that to many people have just jumped into this thread without reading it all the way through. 

227 and Bogart good find on your sources.  I enjoy reading your facts and find they enlighten the argument or debate with actual fact as opposed to biast opinion. 

I agree totaly they should be able to keep what is theirs.  I have no issue with that.  And if the deal comes through that equalization payments are reduced as per amount of oil sales good on both sides.

I will be happiest on the day that equalizations can stop nation wide but i don't see that happening.  And that is from an Ont living in AB.

As for taking it outside it is like minus 40 out there now so fill your boots i will come out and get ya to defrost in about an hr.  ;D

 

[ex_coelis]

Hear Hear!

The structure of our Government is derived from the BNA act, which was written at a time when communications precluded a continental nation from being a viable proposition. Our neighbours to the south pioneered the "Federal" system, where different levels of government were responsible for different things, until the time of the Civil war, America was properly reffered to as "These United States".

Our big problem is the Federal level of government is intruding deeply into Provincial responsibilities through the use of taxation and tax revenues. The BNA act reserves resources, education and health care exclusivley to the provinces, and if that had been adhered to, this entire thread would never have happened. If the Feds were to commit the same time and resources to their true responsibilities of national security and foreign relations as they do for health care, then we would be a lot better off. (IF they dropped doing health care and all the other pork barrels, we would be immensly better off).

Perhaps Premier Williams should concentrate his efforts on "disentanglement" of Federal and Provincial responsibilities. He has shown great energy in his dealings with the Martin government (although given Martin's level of activity, that isn't really saying much), and I would think he has the moral authoraty to launch such a project. (When you mention this to him, tell him I said "Hello"). Disentanglement would be a long term solution to the problems of "Have" and "Have not" provinces (now the voters know who to blame), and the stripping away of overregulation and excessive taxation through disentanglement would have very positive effects on our overall economic health.

 

[Island Ryhno]

Wizard, I did not just jump into this thread, I read all 18 pages before I decided to post. I'm well informed as well, I live right here in St.John's and have an avid interest in both provincial and federal politics. I consider myself well informed. The retirect comes mostly from central Canada, i.e. Ontario. I find it interesting that it's OK to make "Newfie" jokes and as tell us to stop taking the dole etc etc. But as soon as a desparaging remark is made about Ontario, it's wrong. I'm glad you see the struggle we have here in Newfoundland, however the majority of your birth province (and this is a guess or a summation) doesn't feel that way. No further proof need be pointed out than Margaret Wente who so tactfully pointed out that we are a "vast and scenic welfare ghetto." If such comments were made about Ontario in regards to any quam it had with the federal government by a Newfoundlander, I suspect that we would have to call in the forces for more than snow clearing. I have no quarrell with Ontario, I have 2 sisters who are married to Ontarions and make a very good living there, which I too will in the near future. However I will not sit Idly by while people slander my province or my cultural heritage, regardless of what issue we are fighting the federal government over. I suggest that all other Newfoundlanders in here take the same stance, as should all Canadians who think it's wrong to belittle a people. Oh and I never made the take it outside comment, not sure if you meant me! Cheers mate, no offense meant. 

 

[Bograt]

Needless to say this is a very passionate issue. Even the best of us can lose our cool.

 

[Island Ryhno]

Agreed  >

 

[Wizard of OZ]

Ryhno and Bogart both points are correct..

I do my best in the form not to slander anyone, from anywhere regardless of if they are from Quebec or not  (again a joke) {ex girlfriend is from there so the slams are warranted}.

No offence was taken Ryhno justed wanted you to know that we Ontarions don't all feel the same about the east or the west.

And being from Ont i can say that some parts are "vast and scenic welfare ghetto" have you seen all of TO or even some of the abandoned communities up north????

We are all in this together the only way out is together not apart.

 

[227Tech]

Ha Ha, I took your comment of people jumping in without reading the Thread as directed to people such as Ape and kellywmj.

Either way, it definately goes both ways too.

 

 

[Island Ryhno]

Seen and Agreed on both circumstances