Danny Williams lowers the Canadian Flag

[ex_coelis]

If the resentment against Federal treatment in Newfoundland is as deep as this thread seems to indicate, then how would the Liberals take four out of six seats?  Was it nepotism (as you mentioned, enough "handouts") or was it fear of a Conservative Party agenda which didn't really think much of the Atlantic provinces at all (a sentiment expressed by some members here from the Maritimes).

I don't think it so much about the current Conservative party and their attitude towards Atlantic Canada, it's more a case of historical voting patterns and individual candiates (and who they are up against).

Loyola Sullivan could probably run as a Rhino Party candidate and win.  For the heavily financially dependent areas, it comes down to who can bring the dough from Ottawa (usually short term), and the best vote goes to whomever is in power in Ottawa (though this situation may be enough to change that).  I would rekon to guess that in some ridings in Newfoundland, some (older?) people care little about the broader Canadian picture in their vote, and that some people still think they are voting for Smallwood vs the Tory townies when they cast their Liberal vote.  (My apologies in advance to the many in those ridings who this doesn't apply to).

However, being Liberal doesn't mean that MPs would not vote against the Government in a confidence vote, and this may be more of a danger to Martin in the short term.  I don't know enough about the individuals to know if they would choose to cross the house.

I could be wrong, and hope Bograt would correct me,  but off the top of my head....

The easiest way for Martin to deal with this would simply be to stick to his word. 

 

[Kirkhill]

I read Bograt as calling it at 1 Liberal (St.Barbe-Baie Verte) and the rest Conservative.  2 Existing and the rest tossed out or quit and replaced by Conservatives.

And Infanteer, I really fundamentally (listening too much to PM these days) disagree with your view of Confederation where the Provinces are Branches of Government with the Federal Government in the Superior position at the centre.  I believe in the 1867 Construct where the Provinces are Independent Entities and the Federal Government is at best Co-equal and in some instances the Servant of the Provinces.  

Send in the Head Waiter.

 

[ex_coelis]

It has not just been the Liberals who have supportted the Handouts in Newfoundland.  The Conservatives have been just as guilty.  This issue may cause the liberals to lose some seats in Newfoundland but Harper has been hiding, for someone who wants to lead this country this would have been an excellent opoutunity to show that leadership.  And where is he........ ah right no where to be seen. 

All true.

I think the seats lost in Newfoundland would be made up in Quebec and Ont would still vote red.  hate to say but until the Conservatives can break into the East we will be in trouble.

And until the Conservatives come up with a better candidate than Harper, that isn't going to happen.  Stronach vs Harper, sheesh, what a choice(!).  Give me Ralph Klein, give me Mike Harris, give me (yes) Danny Williams.  Give me someone I can either vote for or against, but a stong character who can be taken at his word.  I don't know what  Harper stands for because I never hear him say anything.  His silence on everything has him living up to our worst fears of weak leadership and does nothing to advance proper opposition to the 'natural governing party'. 

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Actually now that it comes up, I like Harper but, well yes, the silence from him is deafening, isn't it? ???

 

[a_majoor]

So what are you doing for the next four years.....?

 

[ex_coelis]

So what are you doing for the next four years.....?

Following provincial politics, and learning to like AHL hockey 

 

[Wizard of OZ]

I have no love for the Liberal party but at least Martin has shown some leadership while the other so called wanna be leaders have been in hiding.  

Mike Harris would still leave Ont red left a real bad taste in most of their mouths when he left.

Maybe someone of fresh blood.

Stronach?  maybe i doubt the west would settle for that though.

Amazying when you break them down who shines and who shivers.  Man our leaders need to shape up but hey at least we are not the states just yet.



On the head waiter comment

I think the feds were meant to represent all the wishes of all the people of the land while the prov where to refelect regional opinion.

Not necessarily to serve the provinces but to make sure that they ruled for the betterment of all and not just the few, (won't mention a province here but it starts with a Q).  
That is where the feds are failing.

again that is MOO

 

[ex_coelis]

Stronach?  maybe i doubt the west would settle for that though.

Nor would the east, and rightly so (I seriously thought they were kidding throwing her up there).  Sorry for going off topic, just didn't want my earlier post being taken the wrong way)..

 

[kellywmj]

I can't believe the GALL of this Williams character. The entire Maritimes, up until very recently, have survived only because of the gobs of federal lolly(My Tax Dollars!) that get drifted their way. Now that Newfoundland has landed on its feet, with natural resource revenues exceeding forecasts, he still demands the dole! Is this some sort of default ingrained entitlement mentality? Its almost like the Russians, who after 70 years of communism, have great difficulties adapting to a market style economy, beacuse they know no other way to live. No more government cheese, Mr. Williams!

 

[Infanteer]

....and we're off to the races again....  ;D

 

[Wizard of OZ]

could not agree with you more Infanteer
:dontpanic:


kellywmj

i hope you read this thread all the way through before you made that statement.

But since i don't think you did

Here we go

Yes they have been supported by the Feds for far to long as have most of the other Provinces i won't guess which one you are from.  But you can't blame him for trying to have his cake and eat it to the problem that this thread has manily discussed is the removal of the Canadian Flag from the Prov.

see no bitching

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

Moderator note......to all those who wish to respond "accordingly" to kellywmj's post, we have been done the cat-fight road already, to do it again would be a waste of bandwidth. He has his right to an opinion but that opinion has been stated before and debated, so just pretend it was posted earlier in the thread and lets stay focused on new stuff.
Thank you,
Bruce

 

[Bograt]

kellywmj



Everyone else,
Rex Murphy spoke on CBC news this evening. I will endevour to find a transcript.

 

[227Tech]

No worries Bruce,

I really wasn't offended, I it was opinionated but not that offensive.  Unlike those made by a particular individual  :warstory: (IMHO anyways)

I'd like to reflect on these three posts tho and see if I can nail three birds in one stone here.

According to the news at lunch here the problem was not that Newfoundland was not getting the 100 percent of the off shore profits but they wanted the equalization payments to continue at the same level they were.

That is not fair in anybodys book.   

I remember reading somewhere that this is a clause in the "chater of rights" or something to that effect.  If I remember correctly, this was already utilized by provinces such as Alberta, Manitoba, and Saskatchewan.  I'll try and hunt it down, at very least to keep bruce off my behind.

I can't believe the GALL of this Williams character. The entire Maritimes, up until very recently, have survived only because
of the gobs of federal lolly(My Tax Dollars!) that get drifted their way. Now that Newfoundland has landed on its feet, with natural resource revenues exceeding forecasts, he still demands the dole! Is this some sort of default ingrained entitlement mentality? Its almost like the Russians, who after 70 years of communism, have great difficulties adapting to a market style economy, because they know no other way to live. No more government cheese, Mr. Williams!

Yea, will leave that alone, but point it out for obvious flaws anyways.

But you can't blame him for trying to have his cake and eat it to the problem that this thread has mainly discussed is the removal of the Canadian Flag from the Prov.

Again, goes back to the what one thinks is "want" and or believe is "entitlement"



If you have the time, please read the full article written at the site.  Its a bit lengthy and somewhat redundant, but hopefully you'll get a better understanding of what's actually being asked here.

Thanks,

http://www.fairdealfornewfoundland.com/gildalton/

For those lazy, like myself. I've copied/pasted a few sections of the article into this post to hopefully shed some extra light through Mr. Dalton's article.


Thanks again.

I am not a lawyer and thus can not speak to the legalities involved here. I only know that the Newfoundland oil and gas resources are in our offshore and whatever rights existed then or arose later were rights that came as a result of our joining Canada. If we had not joined Canada, Canada would have no rights to them today. Despite this, the federal government steadfastly refused to give Newfoundland and Labrador its due. It took a change of government in Ottawa and a more balanced view of what Canada could and should be that we got the Atlantic Accord which provided that the offshore resources would be treated as if they were on land, thus making Newfoundland and Nova Scotia the prime beneficiaries of their offshore oil and gas resources.


The reality however is that this principle of being the prime beneficiaries has not worked out the way it was intended. The various federal revenues represents 54% of the total government take. The provincial revenues represented 46%. However the federal government takes back 70% of the province's 46% in its claw back mechanism, which gives the federal government 86% and leaves the province with 14%. Right now with the claw back, for every $1.00 of benefit to Newfoundland, Ottawa benefits by $6.14. Even if Danny Williams gets what he has asked for, for every $1.00 dollar of benefit to Newfoundland, Ottawa will still get $1.17. Who then, with this split in revenues (86:14) is the prime beneficiary in actual fact? This situation is what Premier Danny Williams is so upset about and what Prime Minister Paul Martin agreed to change during the election. He agreed that Newfoundland and Nova Scotia would get 100% of the provincial revenues without the claw back.


WHY you may ask, should Newfoundland and Labrador and Nova Scotia get 100% of the provincial oil revenues (still only 46% of the total government take) and at the same time get equalization as well. In other words, why is the claw back not appropriate here? Well, it is important to understand that the equalization bar is an annual measure of government revenues and government services. It essentially ignores the extent of provincial debt, tax burdens and infrastructure in place in a province. Consequently, when major funds such as oil revenues start to flow in, the equalization starts to flow out. The net result of this is almost a status quo position for the affected province which essentially prevents a province from being
able to help itself.

Another issue that is worth noting from a Newfoundland and Labrador perspective is with reference to the current sale of Petro Canada shares by the Federal Government which raised some hundred's of millions of dollars for Ottawa. It is important to know that a large part of Petro Canada's asset base is its holdings on the East Coast (Hibernia, Terra Nova, White Rose and Sable). Canadians may not be aware that those interests initially came as governmental crown share allocations for the discoveries on the East Coast. They were granted by the federal government who then claimed ownership in the resource and when Petro Canada was a federal crown corporation. If the principles later established in the Atlantic Accord had applied (namely that the resource was to be treated the same as on land), then any crown share would have accrued to the provinces of Newfoundland and Nova Scotia and not Ottawa. Clause 40 of the Atlantic Accord provides that the costs and benefits of crown share will be shared equitably by both governments. Does Newfoundland and Labrador or Nova Scotia have any claim to a share of proceeds of sale of Petro Canada shares? I don't know, but in principle, did a significant part of Petro Canada's asset base not include what was in essence a crown share in Newfoundland and Labrador's and Nova Scotia's offshore resources? Was
the principle of the Accord upheld in this respect? Has anyone addressed it?


I assure everyone that lowering the Canadian flag does not represent disrespect for the flag. The prime minister called it disrespectful...no matter that the province of Quebec also does not fly the Canadian flag on their public buildings. For Newfoundlanders and Labradoreans, this is not a separatist issue. We are proud Canadians and we love the flag as much as Canadians anywhere and we wear it proudly where ever we go. If there are Canadians who took offence to this action, we are sorry. But give your head a shake...we treated the flag with respect. It was simply lowered as a symbolic protest of the legitimate emotional and deep feelings that continue to linger and be carried inside us about how we have been treated by our federal government



Gil Dalton
Executive Vice-President and CFO of Baine Johnston Corporation
St. John's, NL, Canada

 

[ex_coelis]

Hi Folks,

Rex will be on CBC Newsworld at 1930 EST.  Check it out. 

 

[227Tech]

Good luck trying to get the remote while the "wife" is watching 24 

 

[Bograt]

St. Rex- Patron Saint of Loss Causes,

Here is his commentary on Here and Now January 11. http://stjohns.cbc.ca/media/herenow.ram It is a real audio file. Rex's commentary is at 19:45 of the news cast.

There is also a story on British Paratroopers 27:22.

Enjoy.

 

[kellywmj]

The obvious flaws in my statement 227 Tech? Are you disputing my contention that the Maritimes are a black hole of misdirected federal largesse? No, you didn't, you simply highlighted the passage, with a flippant remark. I suggest you pick up a copy of the  Statistics Canada publication called "Canada Year Book 2003". It shows, to the penny, just how much money is funneled into the region. Take way equalization payments, and Newfoundland is just another East Bloc basket case. Mr Williams should be on his knees, thanking the rest of Canada for our support, instead of staging well timed tantrums for the CBC and his constituents.

 

[a_majoor]

The structure of our Government is derived from the BNA act, which was written at a time when communications precluded a continental nation from being a viable proposition. Our neighbours to the south pioneered the "Federal" system, where different levels of government were responsible for different things, until the time of the Civil war, America was properly reffered to as "These United States".

Our big problem is the Federal level of government is intruding deeply into Provincial responsibilities through the use of taxation and tax revenues. The BNA act reserves resources, education and health care exclusivley to the provinces, and if that had been adhered to, this entire thread would never have happened. If the Feds were to commit the same time and resources to their true responsibilities of national security and foreign relations as they do for health care, then we would be a lot better off. (IF they dropped doing health care and all the other pork barrels, we would be immensly better off).

Perhaps Premier Williams should concentrate his efforts on "disentanglement" of Federal and Provincial responsibilities. He has shown great energy in his dealings with the Martin government (although given Martin's level of activity, that isn't really saying much), and I would think he has the moral authoraty to launch such a project. (When you mention this to him, tell him I said "Hello"). Disentanglement would be a long term solution to the problems of "Have" and "Have not" provinces (now the voters know who to blame), and the stripping away of overregulation and excessive taxation through disentanglement would have very positive effects on our overall economic health.

 

[Bograt]

The obvious flaws in my statement 227 Tech? Are you disputing my contention that the Maritimes are a black hole of misdirected federal largesse? No, you didn't, you simply highlighted the passage, with a flippant remark. I suggest you pick up a copy of the   Statistics Canada publication called "Canada Year Book 2003". It shows, to the penny, just how much money is funneled into the region. Take way equalization payments, and Newfoundland is just another East Bloc basket case. Mr Williams should be on his knees, thanking the rest of Canada for our support, instead of staging well timed tantrums for the CBC and his constituents.

Two things disturb me about your comments.
1. We share the same flag.
2. We wear the uniform.

I am not going to refute your comments. I'll let others form their own opinions of your comments and let them judge your merit. I would suggest that you share your opinion with Newfoundlanders in your unit.

Mods- If this kind of "comment" was directed to homosexuals, minorities, or various religous groups would it be acceptable?