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Conservatism needs work

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E.R. Campbell said:
Arguably and I think it is fair to say, Stephen Harper has moved the Conservative Party of Canada into the mushy middle. It is, de fact, a "centrist party," albeit with a strong "right" wing.

That's a reasonably fair statement, but there remains a lot of traits of Mr. Harper's party that I find abhorrent.  They seem to hold the democratic process in contempt, and are lucky there's no decent opposition given the number of stupid things they've done, like the G8/G20, for example.  While it seems they realize they have to govern more or less from the centre in order to remain in office, there remains a strong subset of the party that is much more to the right, and all I can do is hope they remain muted.  It was my realization that those people existed, particularly after the merger with the Reform Party, that led me to give up my membership in the party.

E.R. Campbell said:
The Liberals were the same party from 1947 until 1967 - then they lurched, mindlessly, left - leaving the field open for Diefenbaker and Mulroney, neither of whom could manage to build a real, principled centre, centre right and right of centre political movement that could express itself within one political party.

And we wonder why people are not bothering to vote, or coming out for the drivel-spewing NDP?
 
Redeye said:
That's a reasonably fair statement, but there remains a lot of traits of Mr. Harper's party that I find abhorrent.  They seem to hold the democratic process in contempt, and are lucky there's no decent opposition given the number of stupid things they've done, like the G8/G20, for example.  While it seems they realize they have to govern more or less from the centre in order to remain in office, there remains a strong subset of the party that is much more to the right, and all I can do is hope they remain muted.  It was my realization that those people existed, particularly after the merger with the Reform Party, that led me to give up my membership in the party.

And we wonder why people are not bothering to vote, or coming out for the drivel-spewing NDP?

Same exact can be said for the liberals, Adscam, et al. You don't have a lock on feeling disgusted by the party(ies) that don't dance to your personal tune.

Hey, here's an idea. Get into politics and see if your personal platform appeals to enough Canadians to give you a job.  ;)
 
Too late. He missed out on a total of $2.00, contribution to political parties.
 
recceguy said:
Same exact can be said for the liberals, Adscam, et al. You don't have a lock on feeling disgusted by the party(ies) that don't dance to your personal tune.

And never did I claim I did.

recceguy said:
Hey, here's an idea. Get into politics and see if your personal platform appeals to enough Canadians to give you a job.  ;)

I've considered that - that's why I was a card-carrying party member and went to conventions etc to try to be a part of the process, but then I realized it wasn't really worth it.  Without a media machine to back ideas, well, you get the idea...
 
Rifleman62 said:
Redeye, please add the word abhorrent to my request.

So added.  Like your previous request, I intend to completely ignore this one.
 
Now, back to the topic at hand - I'm starting to actually think about what the Conservatives can/should do to try to win back some more appeal - what I consider most worrisome is the idea of importing failed policy ideas from the USA.  The Conservatives started down that road in the mortgage market and have fortunately walked back on them a fair bit, thanks to seeing the results of the housing bubble in the USA I suspect.  I'm interested to see what's going to happen when the inevitable discussions will begin on modernizing healthcare and further pension reforms, as well.  With no real ability to speculate what will become of the Liberal Party by the next campaign, it'll be interesting to see how the newly strengthened NDP gets involved as well.  Both the NDP and Liberals will certainly be busy trying to establish their positions in that debate before the election, I suspect.  The Conservatives are likely to have to campaign even more from the centre - but we'll see I guess.
 
>They seem to hold the democratic process in contempt

Does your memory go back any further than 2008, and do you assume that prior majority governments were squeaky clean because they never found themselves in contempt of Parliament?
 
We already have modern health care.  If you mean you want more health care for less money, good luck with that as long as it is largely centrally planned and managed.

We do need pension reform, though: legislation to prevent the socialization of losses without recouping the costs from the "profits".
 
Brad Sallows said:
>They seem to hold the democratic process in contempt

Does your memory go back any further than 2008, and do you assume that prior majority governments were squeaky clean because they never found themselves in contempt of Parliament?

I'm not talking about the contempt of Parliament matter, I'm talking about contempt for the entire process of democracy - proroguing Parliament to stave off elections, a complete lack of transparency they campaigned on.  Whining about the audacity of opposition parties having the audacity to vote non-confidence.  Things like that. Again, I've NEVER claimed that no other party has done such things or ever will do such things, that's not the point.

As far as your point on healthcare - we have a decent system but it's going to face demographic challenges that will force it to change - and there will be a large national conversation on how it will change at some point I'm sure.
 
Redeye said:
I'm not talking about the contempt of Parliament matter, I'm talking about contempt for the entire process of democracy - proroguing Parliament to stave off elections, a complete lack of transparency they campaigned on.  Whining about the audacity of opposition parties having the audacity to vote non-confidence.  Things like that. Again, I've NEVER claimed that no other party has done such things or ever will do such things, that's not the point.

As far as your point on healthcare - we have a decent system but it's going to face demographic challenges that will force it to change - and there will be a large national conversation on how it will change at some point I'm sure.


Proroguing parliament is a normal, routine procedural matter. It became an issue in Canada because a few deeply anti-Conservative commentators propagandists told lies and convinced many (most?) Canadians, the majority of whom are abysmally ignorant of the "machinery of government," that Harper was/is some kind of fascist. The propagandists were, still are, dishonest, and those who believed and continue to believe them are still stupid.
 
Redeye said:
I'm not talking about the contempt of Parliament matter, I'm talking about contempt for the entire process of democracy - proroguing Parliament to stave off elections, a complete lack of transparency they campaigned on.  Whining about the audacity of opposition parties having the audacity to vote non-confidence.  Things like that. Again, I've NEVER claimed that no other party has done such things or ever will do such things, that's not the point.

Nonsense.

Sounds just like the previous liberal governments. ::) Once again, while you say it's like the others not to have done the same, you constantly try peg the blame on the Conservatives, as if they were the only ones doing something and that is the point. Your disclaimers, after the fact when called on it, do nothing to convince others that you're just making a convenient, all inclusive reference, because you're not.
 
recceguy said:
Nonsense.

Sounds just like the previous liberal governments. ::) Once again, while you say it's like the others not to have done the same, you constantly try peg the blame on the Conservatives, as if they were the only ones doing something and that is the point. Your disclaimers, after the fact when called on it, do nothing to convince others that you're just making a convenient, all inclusive reference, because you're not.

When was the last time a Liberal minority prorogue Parliament? Twice?  Not that it might not have happened, but I don't recall it.  I shouldn't have to make any "disclaimers" because it should be fairly obvious that discussing a specific government, and the distaste I have for some of their shenanigans has nothing to do with a party label.
 
Redeye said:
]When was the last time a Liberal minority prorogue Parliament? Twice?  Not that it might not have happened, but I don't recall it.  I shouldn't have to make any "disclaimers" because it should be fairly obvious that discussing a specific government, and the distaste I have for some of their shenanigans has nothing to do with a party label.


1963-65: Mike Pearson had three sessions (means two prorogations) in two years. Did he, too, hold democracy in contempt?

 
A link to a long article of interest. One thing about Conservative (CLassical Liberal) thought is there is no shying away from the notion that people are flawed, and therefore their institutions will be flawed as well. The author extends this to examining revolutions (which generally bring about flawed results), and the rather p[aradoxical position of the United States being both a Revolutionary nation (both in terms of its hisrtory and the radical social order instituted by the Revolution) and a Conservative nation (in the sense that attempts to maintain a stable global order is a very Conservative position, given many nations and societies have great pressures building up towards revolutionary change i.e the Arab Spring). Woth a read:

http://blogs.the-american-interest.com/wrm/2011/06/12/the-conservative-revolutionary/
 
The evolution of Conservative thought:

http://princearthurherald.com/archives/5959

Genuis: Churchill had a good left-wing idea

Posted on July 21st, 2011 by Garnett Genuis in Politics

Largely remembered for his remarkable leadership and oratory as a Conservative Prime Minister during the Second World War, Winston Churchill is often considered to be a traditional right-wing politician because he was at least nominally a Conservative during his premiership. However, Churchill had a nearly 40-year Parliamentary career before 1940; and during that time he carried both the Conservative and Liberal banner at different times, and served in Conservative, Liberal, and coalition cabinets.

Churchill paved the way for modern conservatism, through bipartisanship.

Churchill worked through, and had allies in different parties. He ended his career in the British Conservative Party primarily because the Tories were the only political force in England at that time with the fortitude and the capacity to oppose socialism. But he was willing to borrow good ideas from both sides of the aisle, and over time the combination of conservative and liberal ideas he championed laid the foundation of modern Anglo-North American conservatism.

Churchill believed in a combination of ideas that are now seen as natural and obvious parts of the conservative package, but which were not thought to logically compliment each other in his day. Churchill believed in the value of tradition, and of a decisive, principled, and interventionist foreign policy; the world was a dangerous place and it needed to be confronted with strength, and with British values. Notwithstanding Chamberlain’s appeasement policies and other noteworthy Conservative blunders, Churchill’s principled and militaristic foreign policy outlook was – and is – generally associated with conservatism.

Churchill also believed that the government should concern itself with the position of the poor, and seek to give everyone a “fair shake.” He was instrumental in the initial introduction of the British welfare state before the First World War, which was at the time associated not only with the Liberal Party, but with its left wing. Churchill did not embrace the typical Conservative’s uncompromising commitment to hereditary privilege; rather his belief in equality of opportunity put him at odds with many Conservatives of his time.

When Churchill crossed the floor to the Liberal Party in May of 1904 (he would return to the Conservatives in the 1920s), it was primarily because of his opposition to the protectionist policies of Tory Prime Minister Arthur Balfour and his Colonial Secretary Joseph Chamberlain. While new tariffs would potentially benefit farmers and wealth industrialists by driving up the price of bread and other goods, tariffs would exacerbate the plight of the majority (especially the poor) for the same reason. Free trade increases wealth creation, but it also tends to benefit the average “many” at the expense of an established “few.” This latter point is the reason why early-20th century English Liberals supported free trade and (in large part) why Winston Churchill became a Liberal.

Conservative parties in Europe and North America today tend to support free trade because, thankfully, they have tended to follow Churchill and become the parties of equal opportunity, instead of the parties of hereditary privilege. Contemporary left-wing parties, on the other hand, have often tended to oppose free trade, embracing the socialist creed—which both English Liberals and Conservatives opposed—and putting the interests of certain vocal and wealthy industrialists and unions ahead of the majority and the poor. (To the extent that they are a left-wing party, the Canadian Liberal Party post-1993 has thankfully tended to buck this trend.)

The degree to which contemporary conservatives champion free trade and equal opportunity demonstrates the willingness of modern conservatives to draw good ideas from the right and the left, just as Churchill did. A commitment to equal opportunity and freedom—as well as tradition and Western values—are at the heart of most modern conservative political programs. Regardless of party name, this approach to politics would make Britain’s greatest—and most non-partisan—Prime Minister very proud.

Garnett Genuis is an associate fellow at the Canadian Centre for Policy Studies. He is also seeking the Wildrose Party nomination in Sherwood Park, Alberta.
 
A European view of the debt showdown in the United States. If the "Progressive" left is dying, what will post progressive society look like?

http://blogs.telegraph.co.uk/news/tobyyoung/100099357/the-real-story-of-the-us-debt-deal-is-not-the-triumph-of-the-tea-party-but-the-death-of-the-socialist-left/

The real story of the US debt deal is not the triumph of the Tea Party but the death of the Socialist Left
By Toby Young US politics Last updated: August 2nd, 2011
18 Comments Comment on this article

For British conservatives, the US debt deal is a thing of beauty. Under the terms of the deal, the federal government will cut spending by $2.4 trillion over the next 10 years and there won’t be any corresponding increase in taxation. That is to say, the American Government has agreed to tackle its deficit by spending cuts alone. The British Government, by contrast, is planning to cut its deficit through a combination of spending cuts and tax rises – and it’s cutting it by a smaller amount.

Even if the Tory Party had won an overall majority at the last election, it’s hard to imagine it adopting such a bold fiscal policy. Yet the American Government is on the verge of adopting this plan in spite of the fact that the Democrats control the Senate and the White House. A year ago, American conservatives were showering David Cameron with praise for adopting such a radical approach to reducing Britain’s deficit and contrasting him unfavourably with their own spendthrift President. Now, our Prime Minister looks like a weak-kneed liberal in contrast to the hard-headed Obama. Whatever happened to the stimulus?

Most pundits are crediting this U-turn to the political muscle of the Tea Party and it’s true that President Obama would never have agreed to this deal if the Tea Party Republicans in the House of Representatives hadn’t engaged in the brinkmanship of the past few weeks. But to focus on the Tea Party is to ignore the tectonic political shift that’s taken place, not just in America but across Europe. The majority of citizens in nearly all the world’s most developed countries simply aren’t prepared to tolerate the degree of borrowing required to sustain generous welfare programmes any longer.
As I pointed out in a blog post last May, tax-and-spend Left-wing parties have fared poorly in election after election over the past two years:
Labour was punished by the British electorate last year, polling its lowest share of the vote since 1983, but not as severely as the Social Democrats were by the Swedes, polling their lowest share of the vote since universal suffrage was introduced in 1921…

The same picture emerges wherever you look. In the European election in June, 2009, the Left took a hammering. In Germany, the Social Democrats polled just 20 per cent of the vote, their worst result since the Second World War. In France, the Socialist Party only mustered 16.5 per cent, its lowest share of the vote in a European election since 1994. In Italy, the Democrats polled 26.1 per cent, seven percentage points less than they received at the last Italian election. As David Miliband pointed out in a recent lecture: “Left parties are losing elections more comprehensively than ever before. They are fragmenting at just the time the Right is uniting. I don’t believe this is some kind of accident.”

For believers in redistributive taxation and egalitarian social programmes like David Miliband, Obama was the last great hope. Here was a centre left politician capable of building the kind of electoral coalition that underpinned the massive expansions of state power in Britain and America, from Attlee’s post-war Labour Government to Lyndon Johnson’s Great Society. That is, a coalition of the white working class, minorities and middle class liberals. Yet in spite of sweeping to power in 2008 and ensuring the Democrats won in both the House and the Senate, Obama has proved unable to sustain that coalition. Last night’s debt deal represents the moment when he acknowledged that trying to maintain the levels of public spending required to fund ambitious welfare programmes is political suicide. Which is why the deal has been greated with cries of impotent rage by the British Left.

In both Britain and America, the Left has been reduced to hoping that cutting public spending on this scale will snuff out economic growth and plunge our respective economies back into recession. Not only will the Coalition be turfed out as a consequence, but if Obama can somehow blame the Tea Party for the “double dip” he might be able to persuade the people to grant him four more years. What the Left hasn’t grasped – and what Obama has – is that for the foreseeable future no political candidate or party will be able to increase public spending and win re-election. Socialist welfare programmes have become politically toxic. A sea change has taken place within the West’s most developed countries and last night’s debt deal is a reflection of that.
 
I think this guy has cause and effect backwards (economics does not drive culture; I would argue that culture defines how economics will be practiced), but this is an interesting argument. After the end of the Progressive project, a new culture wil define how economics, politics etc. will be practiced in the post progressive world. If we are lucky, it will resemble "Democracy in America" where communities grow organically from voluntary associations. If we are unlucky, we will be followin the "Man on the White Horse", with all that implies...

Capturing and dominating "culture" is important; the Communists, Fascists and Progressives all made long (or short and bloody) marches through the institutions of media and the academy in order to indoctrinate the masses of people.

http://canadiancincinnatus.typepad.com/my_weblog/2011/11/if-culture-is-upstream-of-politics-what-is-upstream-of-culture-.html

If culture is upstream of politics, what is upstream of culture?

There has been a dawning realization among the more astute conservative thinkers like Mark Steyn that politics is not enough. To win the game from the liberals one must win the culture because culture is upstream of politics. Our movies, our TV shows, our magazines, our video games and our fashion tastes will shape our beliefs, which will be reflected in our preferences in the polling booth. The enemy of this brand of conservatism is the ‘fiscal conservative’ who wants to think only of ‘serious’ issues and leave all the arts and crafts fluff to the liberals. As people like Mark Steyn point out, they are fools.

But this has me thinking, what’s upstream of culture? Does culture just come into being like some deus ex machina? 

No. Culture is not the prime mover, the original, uncaused cause. There is something upstream of culture, and it is economics. For economics defines what we are and what we think even more effectively than culture.

Take the English rioters. What impelled them to take to the streets looting and burning at the least provocation? It was the fact that a huge number of Britons don’t go to work. Something like 10 million Britons have not gone to work a day in their lives since Tony Blair came to power. If part of your daily ritual is to get up at 6 AM, get dressed and go to work, you simply won’t have time for such foolishness and you will despise those who try to get ahead without effort (i.e. looters). What allows people to live without working: welfare. Paying people to not work leads to a culture where work, savings and responsibility are less valued. Economics drives culture.

Take another example: feminism. What inspired the women’s movement was not the writings of people like the Stalinist Betty Freidan. It was the fact that by the time the 1950’s rolled around, rising living standards caused by automation had taken away a lot of the work women traditionally did. For you see, women have always worked. But by the 50’s their job had gotten fairly easy. The women’s movement was inspired by the fact that 50% of the adult population was underemployed. Again, economics driving culture.

And what’s upstream of culture? Answer: politics.
 
Thucydides said:
A European view of the debt showdown in the United States. If the "Progressive" left is dying, what will post progressive society look like?

As the Spartans replied to Philip of Macedon, "If..."
 
The Spartans lost

Here is something to add to the toolkit when answering the "Progressives" on the topic of "Social Justice"
 
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