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Carbon Tax?

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This tax plans represents:

1) An attack on rural lifestyles;
2) An attempt to "wealth shift" from the successful West to the faltering East;
3) A sap to the Lib's urban base.

OK, if you really wanted to be a nutso-Kyoto warrior, you'd tax the hell out of gasoline, not just diesel. Why? Because the elephant in the room in the "green" climate-change debate isn't industry, it's the car in the garage. This is especially true of Canadians in urban areas (the Lib base) because they often have the option of using well-funded (and federally subsidized) public transit. However, if Dion did that the Liberals would be in even worse shape.

Just food for thought. I'm not an environmentalist in the slightest (I have HUGE doubts about "climate change") but this isn't a green shift - it's an urban vote grab by attacking the lifestyles of people the Libs hate for not voting for them.

 
North Star, I concur.

Here in BC, the BC Liberals and NDP pay lipservice to those of us who live outside the Lower Mainland/southern Vancouver Island areas.  When they need our votes, they tell us how important we are, but when they just need the more populous areas of the southwest BC, they ignore us and implement policies to solve Lower Mainland problems by penalising those of us in the Interior.

Which brings us to our carbon tax we'll be paying tomorrow.  This was announced in February, but only now, the NDP are on the bandwagon opposing this.  I think they are just upset at having not thought of it first.  They are only against it because they see some electoral opportunities east of Hope.

I liked the tax-cutting Premier Campbell of the first term, not this Al Gore kool-aide drinking tree hugger we have in his second term.
 
RangerRay said:
I liked the tax-cutting Premier Campbell of the first term, not this Al Gore kool-aide drinking tree hugger we have in his second term.

He wasnt arrested for drinking Kool-Aid.....LOL
 
CDN Aviator said:
He wasnt arrested for drinking Kool-Aid.....LOL

Ha!  Good one!  ;D

But he should be for drinking this Kool-Aid, which will destroy our economy like the NDP did in the 90's!
 
RangerRay said:
Ha!  Good one!  ;D

But he should be for drinking this Kool-Aid, which will destroy our economy like the NDP did in the 90's!

Oh i agree with you.
 
But he should be for drinking this Kool-Aid, which will destroy our economy like the NDP did in the 90's!

Bring it on!  I would dearly love to buy a nice house in Victoria for a couple hundred thousand... once the economy collapses  ;)
 
I'm wondering what would happen if say the federal liberals do get elected, try to ram this carbon tax through and are told by the western premiers and maybe NFLD too that they aren't having any part of it. With M. Dion's lack of backbone, do you think he might back down? I hope it isn't necessary to find out but with him promising all this western money to help out the east I could see this becoming a very scary reality! :cdn: :cdn:

KJK
 
As PM M. Dion would believe his position has been accepted by the country, and essentially as a weak leader and a non-violent type, he would feel obligated to impose his will to show that he was in charge without understanding the ramifications. (It is my opinion is that is what we have been seeing for the past few months, and it would be likely to continue.)

As for his career, the only thing worse for him than loosing an election badly would be to win one with a minority government. Essentially he would make Jimmy Carter look like Alexander the Great.
 
Essentially he would make Jimmy Carter look like Alexander the Great.
:rofl:

Thanks, I needed that! 

Would he then retire and start building houses for people with too many books?  ;D
 
Lol...or taking money from Saudis and then predictably trashing Israel....

I mean come on. If you're going to criticize Israel, that's cool. But don't do so after accepting tainted Wahhabist payola!
 
Some premiers have spoken, but look at the legions of the silent......

http://thealbertaardvark.blogspot.com/2008/07/does-anyone-else-find-it-odd.html

Does anyone else find it odd...

Does anyone else find it odd that not one single reporter has of yet managed to stick a microphone in the face of Danny Williams, Gary Doer, Shaun Graham, Robert Ghiz, David Miller or any mayor from one of Canada's major cities, to ask them their opinions of Dion's carbon tax or how much they figure it will cost those they represent?

Considering that those on this list seem more than happy to voice their thoughts on almost anything and everything, even when not asked, their silence on the carbon tax has me a bit confused.

Maybe all of the above listed have been too busy to bother with reporters, out of the spot light, or perhaps the media itself might have figured that the multi million dollar increases, as a result of Dion's tax scheme, to the cost of running their respective levels of government would not be of any interest to the public.

Whatever the reasons I just do not know, but today we have a golden opportunity to find out for ourselves what the media can't seem to do for us. Because today they all will be out and about doing what countless other Canadians will be doing; celebrating Canada Day.

So while you are out celebrating Canada Day today and you happen to see any of the above mentioned politicians out schmoozing the public, or perhaps even others like Buzz Hargrove or any other union boss, do yourself and your country a big favour and take the opportunity to ask them for their thoughts on Dion's carbon tax and the subsequent costs.

You will be glad you did.
 
Carbon tax is simply "greenwash". Look in particular at the implications for Jennifer Wright's upcoming lawsuit against the Liberals

http://stevejanke.com/archives/268380.php

Oops: Liberal MP Ken Boshcoff admits to Liberal greenwashing
Saturday, July 12, 2008 at 07:47 AM Previous Post

Liberal MP Ken Boshcoff has let the cat out of the bag.  Apparently Stephane Dion's carbon tax program is just a big vacuum designed to suck money out of Alberta, pass it through  Liberal government social programs, and put it in the pockets of whomever the Liberals deem worthy of receiving the cash.

The whole "environmental" thing is just words slapped on to make the tax grab more palatable.  That's called "greenwashing".

You know, this just makes Jennifer Wright's argument that her company is being damaged by the Liberals lifting the name "Green Shift" all the more compelling.

Liberal Party leader Stephane Dion's "Green Shift" is nothing like Jennifer Wright's "Green Shift".

Jennifer Wright's "Green Shift" provides services to companies wanting to be more environmentally responsible.

Stephane Dion's "Green Shift" is about taxing the hell out of Alberta and handing the money to Liberal client groups via new social spending programs:

An Ontario Liberal MP said Friday his party's Green Shift carbon-tax proposal will raid Alberta's energy riches and transfer wealth "from rich to poor, from the oilpatch to the rest of the country."

Ken Boshcoff, MP for Thunder Bay-Rainy River, rekindled memories of the controversial national energy program when he stated on a blog post that the Grits' Green Shift program will inflict financial pain on Alberta and its oil and gas industry.

Failing to say much about any environmental benefits of the plan, Boshcoff proudly proclaimed on a political news blog that the Green Shift is the "most aggressive anti-poverty program in 40 years," which will target wealthy provinces -- particularly Alberta.

"The shift will transfer wealth from rich to poor, from the oilpatch to the rest of the country, and from the coffers of big business to the pockets of low-income Canadians," he said in a post on NetNewsledger.com.

Needless to say, Albertan MPs are not impressed:

Calgary Southeast MP Jason Kenney, the federal Conservative pit bull on the Green Shift, said Boshcoff's comments reinforce what the government has argued for weeks -- the carbon-tax plan amounts to divisive politics trying to pit Alberta against other parts of Canada.

"It reveals the real plan here, which is a massive new tax in order to finance increased social spending," Kenney said. "When you scratch below the surface, what you see here is a discredited, old, beggar-thy-neighbour, class-warfare politics."

It certainly makes it unlikely that Alberta or Saskatchewan voters will give the Liberal carbon tax even a moment's consideration.

The real question is whether voters in Ontario would vote for a Liberal carbon tax even if it is generally accepted that it has nothing to do with the environment.  Some will, of course, but more than a few will feel cheated by the harsh truth that the Liberals have undergone a "greenwash", and not a very thorough greenwash at that.

And I think that hurts the Liberals on another front.  Not only does Boshcoff's admissions make it harder to sell the carbon tax to the electorate, it makes it harder for the Liberals to defend against Jennifer Wright's $8.5 million lawsuit.  At the heart of the lawsuit is the contention that her company, Green Shift Inc, is being damaged as the word "Green Shift" becomes associated solely with the Liberal carbon tax plan.

Part of the Liberal defense would be that since both Wright's company and the Liberal carbon tax are promoting environmental benefits, that association can't possibly be damaging.

That part of the defense has been dramatically undermined today by Ken Boshcoff's greenwashing admission.
 
I know the lawsuit has come up a few times here,  so I decided to do a quick look. (  http://strategis.ic.gc.ca/app/cipo/trademarks/search/tmSearch.do?language=eng )

http://strategis.ic.gc.ca/app/cipo/trademarks/search/viewTrademark.do;jsessionid=0000SpCAe7eu1QgjoV6D7iSV68m:1247nfca5?language=eng&fileNumber=1244652&extension=0&startingDocumentIndexOnPage=1

Now if I remember my law class on Intellectual Property - and I should since I have my text book in front of me, the one holding the trademark need only prove that the infringement would likely cause confusion in the marketplace.  In this case confusing a company offering organic coffee and full facility environmental audits might be pressed to show how a phrase used to describe a change in policy of a political party. 

One defence against this suit I can think of is that 'Green Shift' is something that can't be trademarked. I remember someone trying to trademark "That's Hot" http://www.thespeciousreport.com/2005/05050217paris_hilton.html  God help us if someone wants to trademark "Hello".

Edit:
That is to say that "Green Shift" lacks the quality of being "Distinctive". (IMHO)
 
Since the owner of "Green Shift" has already stated how many customers and potential clients have expressed confusion and dismay at the linkage, I would suggest the "ikely cause confusion in the marketplace" bar has already been crossed. The Liberal Party can try it's luck in court, or take down the offending websites, materials and loose the "Green Shift" phrasology and try for an out of court settlement.

One court which they might already have lost in is the court of public opinion...
 
More on where the money is supposed to go (hint: it isn't you):

http://conservativeinnewbrunswick.blogspot.com/2008/07/voice-of-association-says-something.html

Thursday, July 24, 2008
Voice of the Association says: Something Fishy about the Liberals Revenue Neutral Scenario

I don't write em, I just give them exposure lol. More direct quotes from the Group on the Liberals trying to sell us on their carbon tax system.

Yesterday Stephane Dion said that Canadians are ready and willing for an election. Huh? News to me. I wonder where he does his polling. Canadians are busy enjoying their summer period. I do not blame them. Our nice weather is so short lived. Dream on Dion, Hope your bubble does not burst.

Below is a graph of the average Canadian household expenditures. You will notice that 55% of our income is available for life’s necessities, while 45% of our income goes for taxes to various levels of government. In the key on the right is a breakdown of these two major demands on our income.(go to link)

Stéphane Dion has promised to make his carbon tax “revenue neutral.” He has said that whatever the Liberals take from your wallet in carbon taxes, they will give back in income tax rebates. This model (as he has explained it) is illustrated below. (go to link)

You’ll have to look close to notice the difference because it’s “revenue neutral.” You still are paying at least 45% of your income in taxes. You still have no more money to feed, clothe and shelter your family. The only difference is that some portion of the income tax component is absorbed by a carbon tax. YOU WILL NOT HAVE MORE MONEY.

ON THE OTHER HAND, YOU WILL NOT HAVE LESS MONEY. If it is truly “revenue neutral” for every Canadian, the Liberals simply sneak into one pocket, take your money, and put it into your other pocket. If you don’t have less money to spend on gas and heating your home, where is the incentive to cut consumption and reduce carbon emissions?


Is it beginning to sound like something is fishy with this whole “revenue neutral” scenario? That’s because the money they take out of some Canadians’ pockets WILL BE GOING INTO OTHER CANADIANS’ POCKETS! When you read the Green Shift plan, you find that only $9 billion of the $15.5 billion they propose to take actually comes back to any Canadian in the form of income tax rebates. Another $4.5 billion will go to fund a host of new social programs (which most taxpayers will not benefit from). Only $1 billion is earmarked for environmental initiatives IN A TAX PLAN THAT IS SUPPOSED TO BENEFIT THE ENVIRONMENT!

Stéphane Dion’s carbon tax plan is about massive wealth redistribution. “TD chief economist Don Drummond observed that even with an overall revenue-neutral plan, households won’t likely make their personal ledgers balance between more spending and tax cuts, so there will be winners and losers.” (source)

Canadian Federation of Independent Business spokeswoman, Andrea Bourgeois said, “[New Brunswick] must move ahead with an actual reduction in the overall tax burden. ‘This is the only way of having tax reform, if it is only tax shifting it is not going to move us forward, and it creates winners and losers,’ she said. Bourgeois added that business people are overwhelmingly opposed to the carbon tax that has been proposed by the Liberal government.”

One business owner commented in the Telegraph Journal, “Even if it is technically revenue neutral, there will be winners and losers among the population. A fair and honest presentation needs to be made about who those winners and losers will be. I am very concerned that Joe Average will be the loser due to what I believe will be significant price increases throughout the entire marketplace, which will not be offset by personal tax decreases and other ’savings’ “

Before you decide to support Stéphane Dion’s non-environmental Green Shift carbon tax plan, you better figure out if you are going to be one of the losers. If it is revenue neutral, the environment is the loser. If fuel costs more, but the Liberals have transferred your wealth to someone else - you’re a loser.

How about a real GREEN SHIFT? Lowering taxes on what you want more of ($60 billion in Conservative tax cuts), shifting the burden to what you want less of (Huge corporate sponsorships of Liberal MP’s). That’s the record of Stephen Harper’s Conservative government; when do we get to see the second act?

note: something wonky today; go to link for the graphs!
 
Some right-wing blogger have been pointing out for awhile that Dion's "revenue neutral" tax plan is really an overall tax increase offset with increased subsidies for key Liberal-voter groups, with the odd little credit (not repayed with interest BTW) thrown back at some of the plan's losers.

I mean, come on. It's the greatest tax-and-grab wrapped in a green leaf that's been floated for awhile. If he really wanted to reduce Canada's Carbon footprint, he should:

a) Not tax heating oil, as it has traditionally been views like groceries: a necessity;
b) Apply a gasoline penalty-tax to automobile owners in urban areas who have access to subsidized public transit; and
c) Phase in the diesel tax in the plan now over 10 years as opposed to 4, to give farmers a chance to retool to more "carbon reduced" farm vehicles, as well as provide them with interest-free loans to retool.

However, that would make him very unpopular where he has seats. I suspect he has decided to tax heating oil as only rural dwellers really use that form of heating due to a lack of infractructure, and he's already written them off to the Cons.

Mind you, I doubt Carbon Dioxide is the problem for climate change. Assuming that climate change is a constant (given the historical record, etc), we need way more reserach to figure out what is the human created "delta" between what is "natural" climate change and what, if anything, we are experiencing. Astronomers are now pointing out that the sun may have more of a role in our climate than climatologists give it credit for. There is much left to examine before we change our whole taxation system on a whim.


 
The part that bugs me about this whole deal is that Dion and his Liberally talented pocket pickers actually think we have money in there to take from us.... :threat:

Another thing being overlooked is that this carbon tax is a stop gap cash grab and nothing towards an actuall change in behavior needed to fix the problem. Tax the gas, tax the oil, tax the license plates,stickers and vehicle. Yet the technology is readily available to make it clean and green using electric motors. Why not mandate a change in the north american car market forcing a complete outage on combustion engines altogether? The answer always ends up because someone with more money than he could ever spends says so. The only way things will change is if someone with enough balls convices his counterparts around the world to do likewise, then the possibilties will present themselves.  Unfortunately that won't change with everyone treating oil like it was bled from the body of christ himself. I don't expect any changes any time soon, not with people like Dion atleast.

Cheers.

 
Try living in BC and already having to live with a carbon tax.......


Snafu-Bar said:
Yet the technology is readily available to make it clean and green using electric motors.

The electric motor might be clean but the electricity production not so much. Thats just displacing the problem, not solving it.


Why not mandate a change in the north american car market forcing a complete outage on combustion engines altogether?

Is the NA electrical grid capable of supporting the associated increase in demand ? Methinks not.



 
The electric motor on it's own is just a device awaiting a supply of power to make it run. There are however methods of creating energy from motion through the use of ac/dc generators. Some of the technology emerging to deal with the problems of "recharging from the grid" is to have the car generate the power needed for self sustained travel.

This link is what technology is coming forward to deal with this bump in the road to evolution.

http://www.explorepub.com/articles/beardon/overunity.html

An overunity generator in action and the parent co's website, an excellent read.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L84EwOtRc_4
http://www.lutec.com.au/

Also a youtube search on overunity engines will pull up several clips of what the stuff looks like.

The possibilties of only having to change your 12 volt car battery as the means of maintaining the power supply needed to power your vehicle make adopting the technology worthy of throwing some money at.

Cheers.
 
An overunity generator in action and the parent co's website, an excellent read.

Snafu-bar,

To paraphrase Homer Simpson:

On Army.ca, we follow the laws of Thermodynamics.


 
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