Canadian Surface Combatant RFQ

[Oldgateboatdriver]

I wasn't planning on starting a sh&%$ storm here.

My point was just that its amazing, and nice, that stores system would have kept such a specialized piece of gear as an anchor for 43 years even though it had never been required before for that whole amount of time - so obviously holding on to some type of gear for a long time is actually a good idea.

The fact that it happen to be a war stock and what we had to do to get it released, including how it unfolded, was just what I thought was a funny aside.

 

[MJP]

I wasn't planning on starting a sh&%$ storm here.

My point was just that its amazing, and nice, that stores system would have kept such a specialized piece of gear as an anchor for 43 years even though it had never been required before for that whole amount of time - so obviously holding on to some type of gear for a long time is actually a good idea.

The fact that it happen to be a war stock and what we had to do to get it released, including how it unfolded, was just what I thought was a funny aside.

It is an awesome anecdote. The fact that it was held onto for that long and the staff knew it was Op Stock was pretty damm good.

 

[Halifax Tar]

I wasn't planning on starting a sh&%$ storm here.

My point was just that its amazing, and nice, that stores system would have kept such a specialized piece of gear as an anchor for 43 years even though it had never been required before for that whole amount of time - so obviously holding on to some type of gear for a long time is actually a good idea.

The fact that it happen to be a war stock and what we had to do to get it released, including how it unfolded, was just what I thought was a funny aside.

You'll have to forgive me, I am not use to a MARs/NWO giving a positive nod to anything Logistics.

It is an awesome anecdote. The fact that it was held onto for that long and the staff knew it was Op Stock was pretty damm good.

Its been a while since I worked D206 or Willow Park, but when I was on PRE in the early 2000s we had crates in our deep stores that still had HMCS Hochelaga burned into them. We tend to hand on to things for a long time.

HMCS HOCHELAGA (3rd of Name) - For Posterity's Sake

QUÉBEC – Canadian Military History

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

You'll have to forgive me, I am not use to a MARs/NWO giving a positive nod to anything Logistics.

My wife of now 39 years is a Logistics officer.

 

[Halifax Tar]

My wife of now 39 years is a Logistics officer.

I figured you required adult guidance lol

Many congratulations! 39 years is impressive. Here is to many more!

 

[FSTO]

I wasn't planning on starting a sh&%$ storm here.

DA never misses an opportunity to crap on point out the failings of MARS/NWO officers.

 

[Halifax Tar]

DA never misses an opportunity to crap on point out the failings of MARS/NWO officers.

It sounds like you'd be surprised at how much everyone does.

 

[FSTO]

It sounds like you'd be surprised at how much everyone does.

Crap on other trades? Or how important their work is?

 

[Colin Parkinson]

It would be great if Norway also selects the Type 26 base ship

Norway Type 26 bid boosted as BAE and Hamek sign partnership

BAE Systems and Norwegian shipyard Hamek have signed a Memorandum of Understanding to collaborate on Norway’s maritime defence requirements.

ukdefencejournal.org.uk

 

[Underway]

Probably the UK version, but still that's a great thing to have more people in the community, all solving problems and sharing information.

 

[Rainbow1910]

Important context is that Norway is looking for not just ships, but for a long term partner in operation, maintenance and development. They want to procure a design of basically the same specifications of another foreign Navy and enter into an agreement to effectively operate in conjunction, not a bad idea for a small navy. They are also looking for a primarily ASW vessel compared to a general purpose, or AAW vessel.

Type 26 is likely the best option, although there is a few issues. The Royal Navy is in a similar situation to the Royal Canadian Navy with their frigates, being clapped out and long overdue for replacement. Norway wants the first vessel delivered by 2029, meaning the British would need to take ships off their production line and hand them over to Norway. Getting a 5-6 ship contract would be great for British industry and the Type 26 as a whole. but the immediate result to the Royal Navy is potentially disastrous.

Norway is also a major member of the ESSM consortium, meaning they have a direct say in missile development and integration, having put their own money and effort into the program. Adopting CAMM and ESSM is ultimately possible as we saw on the CSC prior to its change to RAM and ESSM, however it is inherently somewhat inefficient and another logistical burden for a small nation like Norway to bear.

The UK spec Type 26 is also lacking in a capable radar suite, the Type 997 Artisan is a low cost, low footprint system that is just about suitable for self defence purposes with CAMM but otherwise, it falls far short. Norway's current Fridtjof Nansen class vessels sport a SPY-1F radar paired to AEGIS, it seems to me that they valued a high capability radar/CMS combination that doesn't exist aboard the Type 26 without modification. If Norway wants to procure any kind of more capable missiles, the radar suite of the base model Type 26 doesn't allow them to properly use that system.

 

[SeaKingTacco]

So….Norway should come to Irving for Type26s?

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Give the Norwegian CSC to Davie to build to the same spec as ours. That might smarten up Irving.

 

[Lumber]

Give the Norwegian CSC to Davie to build to the same spec as ours. That might smarten up Irving.

Might get built quicker too.

 

[GK .Dundas]

So….Norway should come to Irving for Type26s?

I thought you liked the Norwegians ??

 

[T700]

If Norway does buy in to the T26 and chooses the RCD standard. Could Saint John Ship Building NB be brought back?
This would allow for overflow of repair work of RCN vessels or even speed up bringing RCD online.
Currently there seems to be a lack of facilities at Irving in Halifax to build / refit AOPs, repair CPF and Build the RCD.

 

[Rainbow1910]

Give the Norwegian CSC to Davie to build to the same spec as ours. That might smarten up Irving.

Davie hasn't really built anything substantial from the ground up in quite awhile, not withstanding their slapdash Asterix conversion. Unlike Irving as well, they haven't had any work already done at this point to build expertise within the yard in preparation for a major build like this. The River class construction is likely the most complex and difficult of any vessel within the NSS, given the complicated combat systems and extreme noise sanitation that has to be present throughout this premier ASW design.

Refitting frigates and putting together a conversion of an existing commercial vessel doesn't make Davie ready even for the CCG icebreaker contracts it already has, let alone something to the difficulty as the River class. It makes little sense to push the CCG's desperately needed Polar and Program icebreakers effectively into the garbage if Davie had to build frigates.

CCGS Louis S. St-Laurent is 56 years old and was built by the old Canada Vickers yard in Montreal, to say she desperately needs replacement is an understatement.

Might get built quicker too.

As I described above, Irving has a hot production line and a full staff running their yard right now. Davie does not have that experience, or the established supply chains to be building world class combatants from the ground up. Irving is likely to have some difficulties with the River class construction, as to be expected from Irving and of a first in class vessel, but Davie would be much, much worse on any issues regarding their staff and building the vessels.

If Norway does buy in to the T26 and chooses the RCD standard. Could Saint John Ship Building NB be brought back?
This would allow for overflow of repair work of RCN vessels or even speed up bringing RCD online.
Currently there seems to be a lack of facilities at Irving in Halifax to build / refit AOPs, repair CPF and Build the RCD.

It makes little sense to bring back an entirely shuttered shipyard for a production run of 5-6 frigates, especially when Norway requires their first vessels by 2029-2030. The amount of time, effort and money required to bring back Saint John Shipbuilding would be immense, given how there is another commercial facility using their grounds. It's not like an entire shipyard is just sitting there with a tarp thrown over it, ready to be turned on and used at a moments notice.

 

[quadrapiper]

CCGS Louis S. St-Laurent is 56 years old and was built by the old Canada Vickers yard in Montreal, to say she desperately needs replacement is an understatement.

I'm assuming wherever that yard was in Montreal is now some sort of urban residential or commercial site.

Not suggesting dropping billions on it to create a new yard, just there's only so many places where the stars (nearby population, a suitable shoreside geography, and whatever else) align for shipbuilding, and people keep building condos on them.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Davie hasn't really built anything substantial from the ground up in quite awhile, not withstanding their slapdash Asterix conversion. Unlike Irving as well, they haven't had any work already done at this point to build expertise within the yard in preparation for a major build like this. The River class construction is likely the most complex and difficult of any vessel within the NSS, given the complicated combat systems and extreme noise sanitation that has to be present throughout this premier ASW design.

Refitting frigates and putting together a conversion of an existing commercial vessel doesn't make Davie ready even for the CCG icebreaker contracts it already has, let alone something to the difficulty as the River class. It makes little sense to push the CCG's desperately needed Polar and Program icebreakers effectively into the garbage if Davie had to build frigates.

CCGS Louis S. St-Laurent is 56 years old and was built by the old Canada Vickers yard in Montreal, to say she desperately needs replacement is an understatement.


As I described above, Irving has a hot production line and a full staff running their yard right now. Davie does not have that experience, or the established supply chains to be building world class combatants from the ground up. Irving is likely to have some difficulties with the River class construction, as to be expected from Irving and of a first in class vessel, but Davie would be much, much worse on any issues regarding their staff and building the vessels.


It makes little sense to bring back an entirely shuttered shipyard for a production run of 5-6 frigates, especially when Norway requires their first vessels by 2029-2030. The amount of time, effort and money required to bring back Saint John Shipbuilding would be immense, given how there is another commercial facility using their grounds. It's not like an entire shipyard is just sitting there with a tarp thrown over it, ready to be turned on and used at a moments notice.

Also made very little sense to have the 2 of the same ships built in different yards, but that is politics for you. If Norway needs them and no one else can build them, why not have that contract help build up that yard?

 

[Rainbow1910]

Also made very little sense to have the 2 of the same ships built in different yards, but that is politics for you. If Norway needs them and no one else can build them, why not have that contract help build up that yard?

With all due respect to Norway, the 7 icebreaker order and maintenance contracts that Davie has is far more important to Canada than fulfilling their frigate order. Let the nations with capability take that order, especially when we can’t count on Norway to come help us in the coastal or Arctic areas.