"Canadian Forces warns members affiliated with radical groups"

[Lightguns]

So.....paid vacation.

 

[jollyjacktar]

And no need to worry about merit listings for some years to come either.

 

[jollyjacktar]

Bruce MacKinnon cartoon 6 Jul 17

 

[mariomike]

And no need to worry about merit listings for some years to come either.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mY4LGECbjTg

 

[sandyson]

3 points:
The media once again made a minor event into a 'news' story that is sensational. They repeatedly do this form of exaggeration.

I cannot understand why the CDS--a full general, even comments on an happening that should be handled by a sergeant-major.

As to the lesser ranks, the event proved an opportunity for people looking for career promotion, to get much needed attention for themselves. The party line seems to be their theme of 'criticism'. In that other country, Kim Jong-un would certainly be pleased.

 

[MARS]

3 points:
I cannot understand why the CDS--a full general, even comments on an happening that should be handled by a sergeant-major.

I would speculate it is because the CDS understands quite clearly that Indigenous groups 'have the floor', so to speak, in the current public discourse and that the details don't and won't matter - there is no winning move, in terms of the reputation of the CAF, other than to condemn, without reservation, the actions of those sailors/soldier.

I mean, you even have the MND offering apologies, so obviously the entire CoC will follow with their own.

To be charitable, these young men had to be pretty tone deaf to current climate vis-a-vis indigenous issues in Canada, if they seriously thought that their actions weren't going to be pilloried, quite roundly, all over social media, and thus by their superiors.  Lots of discussion here about Charter rights and such.  That is not the water cooler conversations being had about this in the general public.  I wonder how big of a rock you have to be living under to seriously think it would have played out in their favour....

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Perhaps the fact that 1 or 2 of them were also First Nation made the issue personal and perhaps they were fed up with no one wanting to challenge the protesters?

 

[Lightguns]

I would speculate it is because the CDS understands quite clearly that Indigenous groups 'have the floor', so to speak, in the current public discourse and that the details don't and won't matter - there is no winning move, in terms of the reputation of the CAF, other than to condemn, without reservation, the actions of those sailors/soldier.

I mean, you even have the MND offering apologies, so obviously the entire CoC will follow with their own.

To be charitable, these young men had to be pretty tone deaf to current climate vis-a-vis indigenous issues in Canada, if they seriously thought that their actions weren't going to be pilloried, quite roundly, all over social media, and thus by their superiors.  Lots of discussion here about Charter rights and such.  That is not the water cooler conversations being had about this in the general public.  I wonder how big of a rock you have to be living under to seriously think it would have played out in their favour....

Really!  May I ask how two First Nations men can be "tone deaf" to their own racial issues?  I am half breed, never lived on reserve and am by no means tone deaf.  It is hard to live in the brown skin suit everyday and be tone deaf in Canada. 

I think this protest was silly and not deserving of the status of "sacred ceremony".  It is not like any sacred ceremony I ever attended and there were no elders present which is usually required at sacred ceremonies since they are usually about affirmation of shared community values as defined by elders.  Chief is a sacred position in a community whether elected or appointed by elders or recognized through military deeds.  Chief Grizzly Mama does not appear on the political rolls of any First Nation of any federation.  This was a simple protest that got counter protested.  That being said the counter protest was silly too. 

 

[Bird_Gunner45]

Really!  May I ask how two First Nations men can be "tone deaf" to their own racial issues?  I am half breed, never lived on reserve and am by no means tone deaf.  It is hard to live in the brown skin suit everyday and be tone deaf in Canada. 

I think this protest was silly and not deserving of the status of "sacred ceremony".  It is not like any sacred ceremony I ever attended and there were no elders present which is usually required at sacred ceremonies since they are usually about affirmation of shared community values as defined by elders.  Chief is a sacred position in a community whether elected or appointed by elders or recognized through military deeds.  Chief Grizzly Mama does not appear on the political rolls of any First Nation of any federation.  This was a simple protest that got counter protested.  That being said the counter protest was silly too.

I think the point was that there was zero chance this was going to work out well for them regardless of race, gender, or sexuality. The pers would moat likely have seen the teepee protest and the reaction so should have known how this would look.

That's the poor judgment they showed- regardless of their beliefs, which at best sound outdated, their actions were definately going to make the CAF look bad.

Besides- if this is the level of judgement and decision making they're capable of than they shouldn't be in the military.  We need leaders and soldiers capable of making sound judgment. Also, why would tge CAF put these people in leadership positions when they are clearly aligned with a political movement of dubious quality. Could they be trusted yo lead natives if they can't even be trusted to celebrate Canada Day without looking like idiots?

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

Lots of discussion here about Charter rights and such.  That is not the water cooler conversations being had about this in the general public.  I wonder how big of a rock you have to be living under to seriously think it would have played out in their favour....

Really MARS?

I hate to disagree, but around here (Montreal), I read two national newspapers and three local ones every day, I monitor public forum radio shows in the morning and watch the CTV and Global newscast at noon and the CBC's National at night. Then I also have numerous conversations with my work colleagues.

Well guess what: Other than CBC trying to make this into a scandal of sorts, the whole matter never made it out of a minor 25 lines article on the back of the national sections around here and absolutely nobody is paying attention or caring about this.

It may be the big thing in the naval world of belly button gazing Halifax but it's no big deal anywhere else in Canada.

I would love to hear from other part of the country to let us know if it is getting any traction where they live.

The only place that overreacted is the Admiral's office as far as I am concerned.

 

[Altair]

I think the point was that there was zero chance this was going to work out well for them regardless of race, gender, or sexuality. The pers would moat likely have seen the teepee protest and the reaction so should have known how this would look.

That's the poor judgment they showed- regardless of their beliefs, which at best sound outdated, their actions were definately going to make the CAF look bad.

Besides- if this is the level of judgement and decision making they're capable of than they shouldn't be in the military.  We need leaders and soldiers capable of making sound judgment. Also, why would tge CAF put these people in leadership positions when they are clearly aligned with a political movement of dubious quality. Could they be trusted yo lead natives if they can't even be trusted to celebrate Canada Day without looking like idiots?

Hat, dark glasses, all visible tattoos covered, something to cover their faces. All that was required to avoid this outcome.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I think the point was that there was zero chance this was going to work out well for them regardless of race, gender, or sexuality. The pers would moat likely have seen the teepee protest and the reaction so should have known how this would look.

That's the poor judgment they showed- regardless of their beliefs, which at best sound outdated, their actions were definately going to make the CAF look bad.

Besides- if this is the level of judgement and decision making they're capable of than they shouldn't be in the military.  We need leaders and soldiers capable of making sound judgment. Also, why would tge CAF put these people in leadership positions when they are clearly aligned with a political movement of dubious quality. Could they be trusted yo lead natives if they can't even be trusted to celebrate Canada Day without looking like idiots?

I can bet you that most of the Snr NCO you served with exercised poor judgement as young plug, except there was far less social media and scrutiny by the "New Puritans" back then. 

 

[ModlrMike]

Hat, dark glasses, all visible tattoos covered, something to cover their faces. All that was required to avoid this outcome.

Except for that pesky Bill C-309, which might then make them subject to CCC Section 351(2). A whole other set of problems.

 

[MARS]

I think Bird-Gunner accurately summarized what I was trying to say.

OGBD, my poor wording...I wasn't implying that there is much of any conversation around the entire affair at all - I agree with you there - simply that any conversation is not going to centre on the Charter rights and freedoms of the individuals, simply their boneheadedness.

Lightguns...I meant tone deaf to the reaction from the media, their superiors, the MND, etc.  I can't fathom what other outcome the sailors would have possibly expected. When you have the PM visiting the tepee erected on Parliament Hill under the guise of "respect and reconciliation', well, what other reaction would anyone expect from the MND, and thus the CDS?  And once the CDS made his statements, is it really any surprise that COMMARLANT would follow with his?

I don't think these folks did anything illegal, immoral or what not.  Poor judgement is all and hopefully no lasting fallout for them.  My point is, currently, today, and likely for the coming generation or more, there is no way to 'win' in a situation like this, not for the CAF at any rate. 

I posit that the Indigenous group in question could have even lit the statue on fire...and there would still be no upside to any folks from the CAF showing up, not even to put the fire out.  That is what I mean by tone deaf. 

 

[PuckChaser]

And finally a sober voice of reason: http://www.cbc.ca/beta/news/politics/indigenous-veterans-group-proud-boys-1.4191749

Head of Canada's Indigenous veterans group hopes Proud Boys don't lose their CAF jobs
'They just showed up there with a flag. They didn't beat up on anybody,' Richard Blackwolf says

John Paul Tasker · Parliamentary Bureau · CBC News July 5, 2017
First Nations veterans honoured in Winnipeg

Richard Blackwolf, far left, says the Canadian Armed Forces members who confronted Indigenous activists were 'silly' to have gotten involved in a standoff, but should not be forced out of the military. (Michael Fazio/CBC)

The head of Canada's national Indigenous veterans organization hopes the Canadian Armed Forces members who confronted activists at an Indigenous ceremony in Halifax can stay in the military even if they were "silly" to engage in such a confrontation.

"The whole military has become politicized, we're living in a politically correct era and they [the CAF members] should have realized that this thing would be a media event," Richard Blackwolf, the national president of the Canadian Aboriginal Veterans and Serving Members Association (CAV), said in an interview with CBC News.

"But, hopefully, it won't affect their overall careers. I mean they just showed up there with a flag. They didn't beat up on anybody, it's not like that."

Blackwolf, a 77-year old Métis who served in the navy for 13 years, said the activists assembled at the statue of Edward Cornwallis in Halifax are "point one percenters" who do not adequately represent the country's Indigenous Peoples.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

What I found cringe worthy is the response from the Grownups. It should have been short and curt to the media; “We have heard of the alleged incident, will review any video and interview the members involved to determine if any breech of regulations occurred and we have nothing further to say on the matter until then. Any further inquiries can be made to our Media Relations Officer who will respond at the appropriate time.”

 

[Eye In The Sky]

One thing I have to disagree on is though a threat of extra duties is one thing, threatening to expose someone as racist is quite a different matter all together, and goes into the territory of giving a person doubt to their personal health and safety.

Also contacting a person through non military channels with regards to military context is a big unsat especially WRT them facing possible punishments. . There is a reason why facebook can't be used as a recall list. If there really was an officer or any other member for that matter giving threats through social media, I do hope they are exposed internally through the military. As it is beyond their scope of power.

Also to the Sub Lt who participated in releasing personal details of the 5 men, there is no exception for military members on committing crimes in Canada. It don't matter if some of the details were public before that, adding to it makes matters worse, and still illegal. One thing you may have noticed, any official correspondence from the military haven't listed the names of the Men, even though they are already public knowledge.

I still haven't read or seen anything on this whole Navy Officers threaten to expose names/people/etc stuff...but as devils advocate, couldn't their actions also be considered somewhat in line with this?  (again, not knowing what was actually said/done...more in line with the concept of can an Officer take action to discipline, stop further possible service offences, uphold CAF Ethics and Values...that sort of thing).

http://www.forces.gc.ca/en/about-policies-standards-queens-regulations-orders-vol-01/toc-04.page

4.02 - GENERAL RESPONSIBILITIES OF OFFICERS

(1) An officer shall:
a.become acquainted with, observe and enforce:i.the National Defence Act,
ii.the Security of Information Act,
iii.QR&O, and
iv.all other regulations, rules, orders and instructions that pertain to the performance of the officer's duties;

b.afford to all persons employed in the public service such assistance in the performance of their duties as is practical;
c.promote the welfare, efficiency and good discipline of all subordinates;
d.ensure the proper care and maintenance, and prevent the waste, of all public and non-public property within the officer's control; and
e.report to the proper authority any infringement of the pertinent statutes, regulations, rules, orders and instructions governing the conduct of any person subject to the Code of Service Discipline when the officer cannot deal adequately with the matter.

 

[jollyjacktar]

What I found cringe worthy is the response from the Grownups. It should have been short and curt to the media; “We have heard of the alleged incident, will review any video and interview the members involved to determine if any breech of regulations occurred and we have nothing further to say on the matter until then. Any further inquiries can be made to our Media Relations Officer who will respond at the appropriate time.”

The adults are risk adverse and running scared nowadays.  I was really disheartened by the situation of the GG recently, who made a positive, truthful, supportive message about FN peoples by saying we're all immigrants, including FN who have been here for thousands of years.  Following some hurt feelings reports from the Grizzly Momma crowd the GG (or someone) felt he needed to walk back to stop the temper tantrums.  Bollocks,  he was correct and it was sad to see even him have to bow down to these people.  I'm getting tired of the hissy fits and finger pointing by the 1%'ers.

 

[Bird_Gunner45]

I can bet you that most of the Snr NCO you served with exercised poor judgement as young plug, except there was far less social media and scrutiny by the "New Puritans" back then.

I'm not arguing that point and am quite aware that people did all kinds of things in the "bad old days". I'm also in the belief that a lot of what they did would now get them booted from the army.

I think that your point makes my point- in the bad old days you could go downtown and do what you wanted and the worst one could expect was to be put in jail and pulled out by the Adjt. Like it or not, those days are gone forever. And it has nothing to do with "new puritans" but rather with technology and its ability to put out anything you do. Today, a bunch of drunk soldiers fighting university students in Fredericton can be filmed, put on youtube, and seen by the world, hurting the image of the CAF. That's the reality for the soldiers of today, full stop. The world, and the army, has changed.

That, and arguably their world view, is the poor judgment part. They should have known or at least expected that their actions would be filmed and put out for the world to see. Having their facebook pages and everything else was just asking for trouble when they decided to go to that park.

 

[Underway]

Really MARS?

I hate to disagree, but around here (Montreal), I read two national newspapers and three local ones every day, I monitor public forum radio shows in the morning and watch the CTV and Global newscast at noon and the CBC's National at night. Then I also have numerous conversations with my work colleagues.

Well guess what: Other than CBC trying to make this into a scandal of sorts, the whole matter never made it out of a minor 25 lines article on the back of the national sections around here and absolutely nobody is paying attention or caring about this.

It may be the big thing in the naval world of belly button gazing Halifax but it's no big deal anywhere else in Canada.

I would love to hear from other part of the country to let us know if it is getting any traction where they live.

The only place that overreacted is the Admiral's office as far as I am concerned.

I partially agree.  However it's not just Halifax.  This is big news in the Maritimes, all the Maritimes.  Those national newspapers you read, well they have different issues for different places.  Globe and Mail Maritime Issue has had 4-5 stories covering the situation.  Ontario (well Metro TO) has .... zero.  But yes, the rest of the country has already moved on to oil going lower, 5% of houses in TO are foreign buys and whatever The Donald has tweeted lately.

As for the overreaction, I don't think it was an overreaction.  It's the exact proper reaction.  I felt the Admiral (aside from the white supremacy comment) was very balanced, speaking on youth, stupidity and how we need to see if we can salvage the members.  The CDS was more irritated but he's speaking to the Ottawa press and didn't want to give them even the tiniest crack to accuse us of being soft on potential racism etc...

Our entire organization is under fire for being old boys white bigots and need to go the extra mile to fix these problems, because well, we have historically acted like old boys white bigots for the most part (and in so many cases continue to do so).

As for the repercussions,  I will be surprised if they get anything more than C&P.  That's bad enough, as they are removed from training or ship for the duration of the investigation, and are unable to do any coursing while on C&P or advance their career while on their Probation period (max 6 months though I have in rare cases seen 9 months given under special circumstances).  Their career just got approx a 1-2 year delay in it for advancement, unless the MP's move at lightning speed to investigate this.  The fact that the media blew it out of proportion won't change the repercussions all that much as the violation was not sufficient enough for release, and if that was attempted be prepared to have ALL your ducks in a row because we can't even get rid of real terrible people.

They might catch them on a violation of QR&O 19.44, or Conduct contrary, but I see that as a stretch.  The accused would just ask for a proper trial with a judge and get off the charges (if I was their assisting officer I would advise that).