Canada Considering Sending Phalanx to Afghanistan

[NavyShooter]

I was on CHA on Op Augmentaion....I was in the "goo" before it was fashionable for everyone to come along....

(Actually, we didn't even call it the "goo" on that trip....that seems to have been a ROTO 0 thing....)

We worked our tails off while we were in the NAG, boarding ops for MANY MANY MANY hours a day. 

NS

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

You mean  when we had our 3 month port visit to Halifax before returning to our home port in Dubai.

 

[Sub_Guy]

I was on CHA on Op Augmentaion....I was in the "goo" before it was fashionable for everyone to come along....

See out here on the west coast we had several tours and buying second homes in Dubai years before the CHA came on the scene!!  So I think you ship was part of the fashionable crowd!  Just shit chucking.

Anyway the main point of my post is to help our fellows out with the acronyms

GOO  - Gulf of Oman
NAG - North Arabian Gulf
CHA - Charlottetown

 

[Halifax Tar]

No I mean what exactly is it that the Navy does that gives us existance ? Why do we exist ? When we have people dieing in Afghan and our ships goes south for a cocktail party, thats what makes me wonder what this is all about. Personally I wonder if signing all our boats over to the CCG and giving them the mininmal crew while rolling all the other Naval people into Army trade that can be of some use.

My work rate is high. In fact I would love to have an OS with me to help pick up the slack, the problem is I dont see the point to it other than if I dont I go to jail lol

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

Tell that tp the Iroquois and the Ottawa who are involved in the War on Terror right now. You might not feel you are contributing but don't paint the rest of us with the same brush. Unlike you I am proud of my naval career and what I have contributed in for the past 16 years.

No I mean what exactly is it that the Navy does that gives us existance ? Why do we exist ? When we have people dieing in Afghan and our ships goes south for a cocktail party, thats what makes me wonder what this is all about. Personally I wonder if signing all our boats over to the CCG and giving them the mininmal crew while rolling all the other Naval people into Army trade that can be of some use.

With that attitude I think maybe its time for a remuster because clearly you do not have a clue what a navy is for and what it does.

 

[Sub_Guy]

All 3 services have their roles.

The Navy might not be suffering any casualties, but you can't measure what a service does or is doing but counting the numbers of the fallen.  There is no doubt that the mission in Afghanistan is taking its toll, but to think that no one else is contributing anything and to think that every sailor should be wearing cadpat to contribute is wrong.

Sure the Navy has cocktail parties, but we have contributed quite a bit to the war on terror.  The Air force has contributed as well, we all have a role to play. 

I also agree that a remuster to an army trade sounds like something you should consider. 

We just had some ships head south on the west coast for some exercises, and we also had the SCTF going on out east we do these exercises for a reason, not just to get shitfaced and see the donkey show in TJ.

 

[rmacqueen]

not just to get shitfaced and see the donkey show in TJ.

Really? ;D

 

[Halifax Tar]

Holy cow relax boys. 1 question and you guys sugest a self imposed exile from the Navy sheesh! :brickwall: I new we got panicky at an iota of a thought of doing in the navy but I was hoping an open forum disscussion could enlighten me and show me what Im missing thats all guys.

What is it we do is all I am asking ? How are we (as the navy) contributing to the current events ? What do we do that makes us an indisspensible asset to the people of Canada?

Would a remuster to an Amry trade be up my ally who knows.

 

[NavyShooter]

I'll ditto in with Sub_guy...the Navy does have a role, along with the Army and Airforce....the fact that the Navy hasn't fired shots in anger in a long time doesn't invalidate our presence in areas that need representation from Canada that the Army cannot go.

Can the Army sit 12 miles offshore Syria?  Sail around Cyprus and monitor things?  Can the Airforce spend weeks on station?  Can the Army drop everything, load up 1000 troops and drive themselves down to a disaster area to help rebuild and deliver relief supplies over 1500 miles from home-base?  

The Army does many things which the Navy cannot, and vice-versa....even in the Army they recognize that no one type of unit is perfectly suited for a mission....this is why "Combined Arms" has been a work in progress since WWI.  

Anyhow, if you don't see a good reason for the Navy to be a part of your life, or you don't feel that you can contribute to our nation by continuing your Naval career, and want to switch over to the Army, then by all means, do what is best for you.  

Oh, and so far, I haven't seen the Donkey show either...TJ hasn't been one of my port visits (yet)

NS

 

[Halifax Tar]

I'll ditto in with Sub_guy...the Navy does have a role, along with the Army and Airforce....the fact that the Navy hasn't fired shots in anger in a long time doesn't invalidate our presence in areas that need representation from Canada that the Army cannot go.

Can the Army sit 12 miles offshore Syria?  Sail around Cyprus and monitor things?  Can the Airforce spend weeks on station?  Can the Army drop everything, load up 1000 troops and drive themselves down to a disaster area to help rebuild and deliver relief supplies over 1500 miles from home-base?  

The Army does many things which the Navy cannot, and vice-versa....even in the Army they recognize that no one type of unit is perfectly suited for a mission....this is why "Combined Arms" has been a work in progress since WWI.  

Anyhow, if you don't see a good reason for the Navy to be a part of your life, or you don't feel that you can contribute to our nation by continuing your Naval career, and want to switch over to the Army, then by all means, do what is best for you.  

Oh, and so far, I haven't seen the Donkey show either...TJ hasn't been one of my port visits (yet)

NS

I was at Op Unison. While that was intresting to see and be part of you should know that allot of what we sent down, in humanitarian aid, was returned to us. Also I dont know if we were "on station" long enough to really have made a profound effect on the people of Boloxi. But never the less it was a great way to show our solidarity with the American people, and the ones I personally met were very happy to see us. Maybe I just contricted myself im not sure. lol

Your right combined arms is the whole idea here, I ask you now, what did we transport to the gulf in the way of troops, cargo or weapons that is used in KAF ?

Syria: Ok thats great we can sit 12 miles off Syria and do what? Support landings? Sure could but there isnt any going on that I have herd of.

Cyprus: Did we end the UN mission there almost completly a decade ago. Didnt know it was flaring up again.

Its not that the Navy needs to fire shots in anger to validate its presence its finding a role that is actually worth the money being spent to equip and utilize us. Why not go and take on the rising piracy threat around the west coast of Africa or the straits of Malacca. Fisheries are of course a great mission we have but also one I think should be done by a better equiped CCG. I would also like to see us move into the Arctic seeing as that is of rising importance.

In closing it dosnt really matter what element Im in because my uniform means nothing. I can work with all 3 services as well as Spec Ops and the fact that my DEUs are Navy has no effect on that. This is one of the things I enjoy about supply we get to see the whole picture where as allot of personel dont.  Im not trying to put anyone down here, Im not trying to say that what you have all done in your respective carrers is pointless all I am asking is how we (the Navy) actually fit into the big picture now ? I mean hell even our Leos were flown over to KAF.

 

[Ex-Dragoon]

If you don't get it now you will never get it. Prime examples were given yet you chose to ignore them.

Hell even Rick Hillier knows the usefulness of the Navy and he wears green....we are a martime nation Tar, nothing makes a country take notice then a warship off the coast. Ask the Iraqis. Ask the Iranians.

 

[Halifax Tar]

Ok apparently questioning the Navy is the wrong move. understood. Like I said before and I provided examples of where a navy could be useful like this:

Its not that the Navy needs to fire shots in anger to validate its presence its finding a role that is actually worth the money being spent to equip and utilize us. Why not go and take on the rising piracy threat around the west coast of Africa or the straits of Malacca. Fisheries are of course a great mission we have but also one I think should be done by a better equiped CCG. I would also like to see us move into the Arctic seeing as that is of rising importance.

Everything there is a great reason for a Navy, if you dont think Piracy is noble undertaking I sugest you surf around on the net on modern day piracy. Its very quickly gaining internation attention and concern, as for the Arctic well I think everyone know we will need to do more police that area if we intend to stake our claim on it.

How did I ignore the examples ? I think I addressed them did I not ? I would just like to see our Navy take a more active role in the modern mid east, be it anti-piracy patrols or anti-terror patrols. By the way it is highly suspected that the rise of piracy off Africa is part and parcel with the Taliban.

Of course were a maritime nation I think I stated that by the importance I put on the fisheries patrols. I just think its a job more suited to the CCG while we (Navy) should be projecting our power more overseas.

As for the Iranians and Iraqis shaking in there boots at the sight of an Arleigh Burke, well in this last conflict I dont think too man 16'' shells flew into Bagdad as the marines stormed the Tigres and Eupraties. BUT the sight of a CPF or 280 bearing down on a boat full of pirates that just RPGd a cruise ship or oil platform now that will get your attention.

Anyways I will back out of this thread now I hope I didnt upset anyone too much I just wanted some disscussion to take place.  >

 

[aesop081]

As for the Iranians and Iraqis shaking in there boots at the sight of an Arleigh Burke, well in this last conflict I dont think too man 16'' shells flew into Bagdad

I dont think too many Arleigh Burkes fire 16" shells  ;D

 

[Kirkhill]

16" shells for 5" guns.  Proof positive.  He is from Supply. ;D

Retiring now.

 

[Trinity]

http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4897647549985392214

scanned the thread.. didn't see this link.

Nice pic of it in action (night - tracers are nice!)

 

[Halifax Tar]

ha ha ha lol yes there are no 16" shells on an Arleigh Burke lol got myself there   

Wow thats a great vid.

Now if there are any NWTs out there do you think there is a way you could make this mobile ? Or would it almost have to be stationary because of the powerpack and other goodies needed to operate it ? When I say mobile I mean could you mount this on an existing armoured chassies

 

[geo]

Hmmm.... if we are going to sling a ot of lead into the air - wouldn't it be more expedient and provide comparable protection;
with the purchase of a bunch of ZSU 23-4s?

While the weapon platform does have it's problems, if you want to throw an awful lot of lead at a problem, this baby is for you.

 

[Mortar guy]

You're being sarcastic, right Geo? I can't tell (not QL4 Sarcasm Qualified although I have done the DL).

Phalanx Block IB - 2000-3000 rounds per minute; search radar; tracking radar; TV/FLIR EO systems; ability to engage rockets, artillery, mortars.

ZSU-23-4 - 4000 rounds per minute (limited to 50 round bursts due to barrel heating); old search/tracking radar; antiquated EO system (day only); no known capability to engage rockets etc.

I dunno. I'll take the Phalanx...  8)

MG

 

[Roadracer]

Just a few examples of distinctively Canadian naval roles in modern crisis (from personal experience):

Gulf War 1: Ships rapidly deployed in support of our allies. The ship I was on went through the Suez Canal in a convoy containing Canadian, USN, RN and civilian ships. Canadian units commanded, protected and were part of the logistics train (Anyone else remember the "Pachyderm"?)

OP Allied Force: During the NATO bombing campain in the Balkans, Canadian ships marshalled air raids, protected air lanes and provided contact and cover for A/C returning home low on fuel and ammunition. Also provided information to intercept people smugglers who were doing things such as towing rafts of refugees into the middle of the Adriatic and cutting them loose.

OP Apollo: A host of duties including LIO (Leadership interdiction operations) where vessels were searched for escaping Taliban/Al Quieda leaders, convoy escort and force protection.

Canada's national defence depends on having a balanced capability on land/sea/air. The naval component is relatively easily deployable to anywhere in the world (North Korea next?) and provides a defensive capability in national waters. You were obviously not in during the Turbot War if you feel the CCG is the ONLY answer to defence of national interests in Canada's littoral.

You seem upset that folks are jumping to the defence of a service they love because you raise a question. Yet what did you expect? Everyone to just suddenly agree? If, in your opinion, the navy has no significant role in the future of Canada's defensive posture, it's up to you to present logical reasons for that. Then maybe we'll all be at the re-must office with you  ;D

And we are waaaaaaayyyy off topic. The Phalanx debate does continue. Part of the discussions are apparently the actually utility of such things in theatre and how they would be supported. Originally it was felt that some army trades could get by with a little extra training on the units (!). Cooler heads have prevailed and it is now realized that (for Canada) use of these in AFG will require a significant naval footprint on the ground for a protracted time.

Also, what does this do to the fighting efficiency of the fleet? How many ships can remain fully deployable (i.e. at high readiness)? Where will the navy require their units next (again the NK thing is one example)?

 

[Halifax Tar]

You seem upset that folks are jumping to the defence of a service they love because you raise a question. Yet what did you expect? Everyone to just suddenly agree? If, in your opinion, the navy has no significant role in the future of Canada's defensive posture, it's up to you to present logical reasons for that. Then maybe we'll all be at the re-must office with you  ;D

How do you agree with a question ? Thats all it was, a question. I also provided examples in which we could contribute more. I didnt expect anyone to agree with a question, but I hoped for non-biased thought out and rational answers not statments the ammount to if you dont like it leave.

Dont get me wrong here the Navy has been good to me, that I cant deny. But once you go to Afghanistan and see what I have and then come back to home and watch us go through the paces, have cocktail parties, get bitched at because the officers heads arnt clean enough for there RMC prissy butts you may share in my opinion. I dont know maybe you wont either. The Navy needs sweeping changes to stay relevant not only internationally but in reqruiting sense too.

Your right we are way off topic. Back to the CIWS. I agree to disagree