CAN Enhanced (Permanent?) Fwd Presence in Latvia

[Kirkhill]

And a 2023 brigade might not need as many privates as a 1951 brigade — I get the sense that what we most need is solid RC Sigs, RCEME and C Int C Corporals, and those we can’t ‘shake and bake’.

And that is a real problem across the board.

 

[Kirkhill]

I never called myself an expert.

Same here. On anything. I tend to run like the wind when confronted by anybody that professes themself to be either an expert or an intellectual.
It is a visceral reaction.

Others get to decide whether I am full of hot air or I am useful. Or both.

 

[Czech_pivo]

For the record, here's how the info-machine says it can unfold (archived link here - text also attached in case neither link works)

Just out of curiosity, how does this stack up against our NATO peer groups in Lithuania and Estonia? Are the two lines similar?

 

[Blackadder1916]

The initial deployment of 27 Brigade to West Germany is an interesting story. The announcement of the deployment was made in May 1951, and the main body started sailing to Europe in November of the same year. More than half the Brigade was recruited off the street with no prior military experience. Despite initially wearing the capbadges of some 15 reserve regiments it wasn’t really a mobilization of the militia from out of the armouries, it was specially recruited for the task.

Canadians in 1951 wanted to enlist in order to deploy to Europe, and the Canadian Army had the ability to enrol and train them rapidly. Things appear to be very different today, on both fronts.

Information archivée dans le Web | Information Archived on the Web

publications.gc.ca

REP0RT NO. 51 HISTORICAL SECTION (G.S.) ARMY HEADQ.UARTERS 6 May 52
THE 27TH CANADIAN INFANTRY BRIGADE GROUP FEBRUARY 1951 - MAY 1952

 

[OldSolduer]

I never called myself an expert.

But you have expertise in a few certain areas. More than most of us on here.

 

[Fabius]

I am understanding the Cdn led MN Bde to have its permanent manoeuvre units being the eFP, largely as it is now plus our deploying tanks although the artillery and engineers will likely be stripped off to make MN Bns of those, and the Danish Bn.

Our VHR 3rd Bn GRTF will be a fly over Bn that will round out the Bde.

 

[WLSC]

Concurrently the Army raised 25 Brigade for Korea by forming 2 PPCLI, 2RCR and 2 R22eR by recruiting from the streets for special service.




So between August 1950 and November 1951 (15 months) Canada created, recruited and deployed two active brigades from the street with the first units being blooded, and performing well, within 8 months of being recruited.

That was pretty much from a standing start.

Not totally from the street. A lot of Sr NCOs and Officer were either veterans or from those ARes units. My unit had to deployed one of those coy with the 27 Brigade and maintained a second one in backup. A lot of member switch to go there.

It’s way easier to form a brigade when a good hunk of the units cadre are already trained or just need a shake up training.

I think that on that same basis, we could still do a similar thing today.

 

[Spencer100]

One very important thing about the Korean Brigade was an awful lot of those guys off the street had prior combat experience.

Yup this guy right off the street. Lol

Léo Major - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

This guy too.

Tommy Prince - Wikipedia

en.m.wikipedia.org

They had a "little" prior experience.

 

[WLSC]

Almost the entire 2e Vandoos was form with veterans. Starting with the CO who was at is second battalion command during a war, Dextraze.

 

[OldSolduer]

Almost the entire 2e Vandoos was form with veterans. Starting with the CO who was at is second battalion command during a war, Dextraze.

Same with 2VP - Big Jim Stone was the CO

 

[daftandbarmy]

Same with 2VP - Big Jim Stone was the CO

And his boss

John Meredith Rockingham - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[CBH99]

Edit here. 90 days to deploy. 120 days to sustain any long term.

I know your the "expert" in all things Canadian Military and like to throw your weight around on the forums. I wonder what your thoughts are in condescending tones to others responses?
Based on your "expertise" what would a reasonable time line be to deploy 15 tanks, crews, parts, aux equipment, support, etc?

I will add my thoughts, which will obviously go against your special knowledge of the situation.
Based on the CF has a hard time deploying any sizable force quickly,(outside of the Navy) I guess it makes sense for planning to be over a year in time and span over a 3-10 year plan. The lack of spare parts, staff, aux equipment, support equipment, transport both in and to the theatre are lacking. It makes sense I guess.
No different then when we were toying the idea of sending Cf18s to Africa. Lots of planning for not much results. Mainly based on we could not sustain ourselves. We needed support from our Allies who did not want to provide.

I would assume that infrastructure in country is lacking for a larger contingent right now. Canada does not have the ability to provide temporary shelter for our soldiers to be deployed quickly. Nor do we have the equipment to do so.
We are more then likely short on staffing which may be a major part of the key, Afterall we can more then likely leverage our allies for spare parts and aux equipment. Poland seems to be pretty good at providing gear.

administratively Canada is more then likely trying to figure out how to swell the HQ level of the Deployment so more in Ottawa can get a service ribbon for deploying out of a hotel.

I wonder how long it would take for Canada to provide a QRF, Ready Reaction Force for our Troops anywhere in the world if they required it? I am guessing we can't. Or would it take a year to plan to get out the door?

This surge of equipment and Soldiers along with extension of commitment is definitely a good thing for the CF, it will give us a focused long term mission again. Might open minds and pockets books of the government.

But like most things liberals, they are committing us to a mission that the bulk of the money and commitment will happen after the next election.

A few observations & just random personal thoughts...

- Deploying a 6 pack of CF-18's as an air force QRFA (of sorts) is doable and has been done.

The decision to withdraw the CF-18's over Iraq & Syria was purely a political one.

(There were more fighters from various countries deployed there than was needed, so Canada rushed to be one of the first to downsize or withdraw aircraft from the air campaign to save money for a mission well covered by permanently stationed assets nearby)

We deployed JTF & CSOR teams once the ATF (air task force) had come home, so our committment in terms of personnel was roughly the same.


- The conflict you are thinking of where NATO allies started to run low on munitions was Libya. (A lot of EU countries that were participating ran low on munitions - I think the USAF took more of a back seat in order to prove a point...)


- You are right, a lot of the heavy lifting on this (practical and financial) will be after the next election. Good catch!

(Similar to how a bulk of the new funding for the CAF was earmarked for between 2030 & 2040... long after he'd be voted out...)


- I am still wondering what the point of it all is, if not just to have a forward deployed formation available to execute our foreign policy more easily? (QRF, faster NEO if that's ever a thing again, staging area for CANSOF, etc)

While never wise to underestimate one's adversary...Russia isn't in any shape to wage a conventional war with anybody right now, and their focus has to be on Ukraine. But as long as this conflict continues, I think Russia will have a difficult time presenting a conventional threat elsewhere in the region.

 

[GR66]

I am understanding the Cdn led MN Bde to have its permanent manoeuvre units being the eFP, largely as it is now plus our deploying tanks although the artillery and engineers will likely be stripped off to make MN Bns of those, and the Danish Bn.

Our VHR 3rd Bn GRTF will be a fly over Bn that will round out the Bde.

Curious....any references or updates?

 

[Fabius]

The Danish Bn has been reported in various media as deploying to Latvia, although the announcements predate any Cdn Bde announcement so they don’t reference joining the Cdn Bde.
Denmark To Send NATO Battalion To Latvia In 2024

The GRTF role is as per the new CA MRP / MRS that’s been briefed, although there is not OS media reporting yet of it.

The MN Arty and Engr Bns is merely informed speculation on my part based on the MRP. I have not seen anything yet about what our eFP partners might be designing to contribute.

 

[FJAG]

The Danish Bn has been reported in various media as deploying to Latvia, although the announcements predate any Cdn Bde announcement so they don’t reference joining the Cdn Bde.
Denmark To Send NATO Battalion To Latvia In 2024

The GRTF role is as per the new CA MRP / MRS that’s been briefed, although there is not OS media reporting yet of it.

The MN Arty and Engr Bns is merely informed speculation on my part based on the MRP. I have not seen anything yet about what our eFP partners might be designing to contribute.

By my reading is that its a prepositioned battalion that will reside in Denmark but attend certain training activities in Latvia. It time to coin a new phrase REFORLAT - Return of Forces to Latvia. Worked for the Americans for several decades on REFORGER.

 

[Kilted]

Now it occurs to me that many of our problems would be solved if we had our own Gurkha Regiment. I mean, the politicians would never go for it, but we can dream.

 

[daftandbarmy]

Now it occurs to me that many of our problems would be solved if we had our own Gurkha Regiment. I mean, the politicians would never go for it, but we can dream.

Believe me... despite the romantic visions, that's probably not a good idea.

 

[KevinB]

Believe me... despite the romantic visions, that's probably not a good idea.

TBH the Ghurka’s wouldn’t fit the CAF style for inclusion. Having worked with Ghurkas a bit, and having a former RSM work for me when contracting, I was astonished how poor their NCO corps was in terms of being well an actual NCO (as opposed to the Officer Corps enforcer.).
I do like a good Lamb or Goat curry though, so we got along quite well.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

A few observations & just random personal thoughts...

- Deploying a 6 pack of CF-18's as an air force QRFA (of sorts) is doable and has been done.



While never wise to underestimate one's adversary...Russia isn't in any shape to wage a conventional war with anybody right now, and their focus has to be on Ukraine. But as long as this conflict continues, I think Russia will have a difficult time presenting a conventional threat elsewhere in the region.

Keeping a good sized standing force on the Russian border keeps them from being even more stupid and forces them to have an opposing forces opposite, reducing troops available for Ukraine. Also means that some poor Russian private might have a chance to survive with a posting on the Russian border instead of Bakhumt.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

TBH the Ghurka’s wouldn’t fit the CAF style for inclusion. Having worked with Ghurkas a bit, and having a former RSM work for me when contracting, I was astonished how poor their NCO corps was in terms of being well an actual NCO (as opposed to the Officer Corps enforcer.).
I do like a good Lamb or Goat curry though, so we got along quite well.

You could do it with Canadian Officers and some NCO's and slowly build up their abilty to lead. Yes they never get to our level of "Diversity and inclusion" but they will be able to fight.