Base closures?

[Fishbone Jones]

We traded in our old place for this: http://wikimapia.org/11556691/Major-FA-Tilston-Armoury-Police-Training-Centre

 

[Matt_Fisher]

We traded in our old place for this: http://wikimapia.org/11556691/Major-FA-Tilston-Armoury-Police-Training-Centre

Whilst I would say that is a great model for how to acheive economies of scale and cost sharing between federal and municipal/provincial agencies, do we have the budget to replicate that across the country?  I think that over the next 5 years, the primary focus will be on near term immediate cost reduction rather than increased spending for long term cost savings.  This is why I think that with regard to base closures, unless a significant case can be made for the immediate cost savings of closing one location down and consolidating it with another, we won't see much going on in the arena of base closings.

 

[hippz]

I highly doubt they'd close Borden, it's the largest training facil. in Canada and the birthplace of RCAF.

 

[vonGarvin]

I highly doubt they'd close Borden, it's the largest training facil. in Canada and the birthplace of RCAF.

CFB London was the home station of The Royal Canadian Regiment, and it was "downgraded".  And Borden is much smaller than Gagetown, for starters.  I think your facts may be off.

 

[aesop081]

and the birthplace of RCAF.

Does that give it some sort of operational necessity for the Air Force ?

No.

 

[Nfld Sapper]

CFB London was the home station of The Royal Canadian Regiment, and it was "downgraded".  And Borden is much smaller than Gagetown, for starters.  I think your facts may be off.

The largest is Suffield........


The Gagetown Military Camp (or Camp Gagetown) opened in 1956 and was named after the village of Gagetown, although the base was located west of this historic village and was headquartered 25 kilometres to its north in Oromocto. The base's territory measured 1,129 km² and included numerous live-fire ranges for infantry, armoured, and artillery units, as well as aerial weapons ranges.

At the time of its opening in 1956, until the opening of CFB Suffield in 1971, Camp Gagetown was the largest military training facility in Canada and the British Commonwealth of Nations. By comparison, Suffield has 2,690 km² with 2,270 km² usable by the military, and 420 km² designated as a National Wildlife Refuge.

 

[vonGarvin]

The largest is Suffield........

Oh, I know.  I just looked out my window and happened to see one training area that was larger than Borden, that's all.

 

[McG]

Is "training facility" the same as "training area"?
hippz could have been commenting on how places measure up when comparing annual student days  ...  but I still don't know that Borden would neccesarily be the "largest"

 

[PanaEng]

New infrastructure mega-projects don't guarantee the safety of the installation/base.  Just look at Chilliwack:

• new buildings for 1 CER
• new buildings for CFSME
• new barracks
• multi-million dollars for new ranges and upgrading existing ones

the home of CFOCS; and
the home for all Military Engineers - including the people that maintain the infrastructure on all the bases...
it was closed shortly after most of this facilities came online.

 

[PMedMoe]

That may have very well been the selling conditions.  Several new building were put up in Baden (and possibly Lahr) before the military announced their closures.

 

[George Wallace]

Lahr saw a great deal of new construction.  A whole, brand spanking new hospital was constructed outside of the Kasserne. 

 

[PMedMoe]

And no different than Baden, those buildings went up even though the military knew it was closing those bases.  As I said, they were a condition of sale.

 

[PanaEng]

And no different than Baden, those buildings went up even though the military knew it was closing those bases.  As I said, they were a condition of sale.

I don't recall any "condition of sale" on Chilliwack. It is mostly still federal property.

 

[Blackadder1916]

Lahr saw a great deal of new construction.  A whole, brand spanking new hospital was constructed outside of the Kasserne.

The hospital was in the design/build stage long before there was any announcement (or even an inkling) that Lahr and Baden would close.  It was the major project on my desk during the three years I was at NDHQ in the late 1980s.  It was opened and fully operational (I was at the opening ceremony) before the decision to withdraw forces from Europe was made.  It continued to be used as a medical facility (granted during the the final year in-patient services were discontinued) until a few months before the closure of Lahr.  It was also the first property to be sold/transferred to a non-government entity.  It was purchased by a private medical group that converted it to a cardiac surgery facility.  Even while it was still used by us, there were numerous visits (and tours) by parties interested in purchasing it.  On the day the medical section transferred to temporary accommodation on the airfield, the new owners started renovation/expansion.  I was the last Adm O and as I was clearing out my office and doing a final check to make sure that nothing had been left behind their construction crews had already started to add an additional four (or maybe seven) operating rooms to the three existing in our design.

But there shouldn't be worry that we incurred a loss on that particular building.  Knowing what the budget was to build and equip it, how much of the equipment (and its value) was removed and distributed to med facilities in Canada and what the new oners paid, I'm confident we turned a significant profit.  I used to joke that I should have received a real estate commission based on my interaction with prospective buyers.

And no different than Baden, those buildings went up even though the military knew it was closing those bases.  As I said, they were a condition of sale.

I also closed the Base Hospital in Baden.  While there was some construction (but nothing of great note) that was completed after the announcement that the base would close, these were projects that had been planned, approved, funded and contracts awarded prior to the announcement.  The disposal of property occupied by us (or any NATO forces) in Germany works differently than similar disposal in Canada.  Technically, the Government of Canada doesn't "sell" it.  Any infrastructure (under the control of a NATO force) that is excess to needs is first offered to any other NATO force who may wish to use it for that force.  If another NATO force does not claim it, it is transferred back to German control.  If the property is subsequently sold (or otherwise used by the Germans) the value of improvements to that property is considered by the German government in determining the amount that they will reimburse the nation who made those improvements.

 

[DCRabbit]

CFB London was the home station of The Royal Canadian Regiment, and it was "downgraded".  And Borden is much smaller than Gagetown, for starters.  I think your facts may be off.

Borden is the largest training facility.. all the support schools, etc..  as opposed to training area.

 

[JesseWZ]

Borden is the largest training facility.. all the support schools, etc..  as opposed to training area.

I'm still not sure Borden puts as many candidates through courses as CTC... what are your sources?

 

[DCRabbit]

I'm still not sure Borden puts as many candidates through courses as CTC... what are your sources?

http://www.borden.forces.gc.ca/998/index-eng.asp

15k personnel a year... that's a lot. The 'largest training facility' claim comes from the Wikipedia page for Borden. That could be a dubious source. But put that with 15k people and it's a pretty good case. What volume does the CTC do?

 

[mover1]

Bordens sole purpose is to Train people.  Lots of Schools and establisments there.  Check it out

http://www.borden.forces.gc.ca/998/index-eng.asp

15000 Annually is backed up by its web page.

 

[JesseWZ]

I'll admit that 15000 is more then I expected, I dug around the CTC and 3 ASG page, as well as Wikipedia and found no numbers to substantiate for CTC.

You may well be correct.  :'(

 

[observor 69]

I also closed the Base Hospital in Baden.  While there was some construction (but nothing of great note) that was completed after the announcement that the base would close, these were projects that had been planned, approved, funded and contracts awarded prior to the announcement.  The disposal of property occupied by us (or any NATO forces) in Germany works differently than similar disposal in Canada.  Technically, the Government of Canada doesn't "sell" it.  Any infrastructure (under the control of a NATO force) that is excess to needs is first offered to any other NATO force who may wish to use it for that force.  If another NATO force does not claim it, it is transferred back to German control.  If the property is subsequently sold (or otherwise used by the Germans) the value of improvements to that property is considered by the German government in determining the amount that they will reimburse the nation who made those improvements.

There was a large expensive looking "bunker?" style building being built in 1984/85 inside the Baden restricted area. At the time I think it was stated to be a new NBCW proof shelter for the incoming shiny new CF-18 maintainers equipment?
I often wondered if it ever got used and whatever became of it when the base closed. I have seen on the Baden Soellingen Remembered web site Germans using the old aircraft shelters for various roles.