Base closures?

[ArmyRick]

Close Meaford? Your right out of your depth my friend.
#1 Meaford is one the cheapest bases to run in the CF (Well technically a TC)
#2 It generates income from a large number of Police and Security agencies that PAY MONEY to use the facilities when its in slow peroid
#3 Borden is actually quite full and the templating in Borden is limited
#4 You can fire alot of cool weapons in Meaford given the unique way the impact area is laid out (the Hogs back road is closed regularly for larger weapon shoots). The templating is very flexible for such a small base
#5 What encroaching condos? Seriously the houses and condos on the meaford town Lakeshore have been there a long time. The town has seen very limited growth and you won't see much more
#6 Do you have any idea how many PRes units use Meaford? It would create a huge black hole for units in central Ontario to train. Borden is a very limited option
#7 The TC trains more DP1 Infantry (Reg F and Res) than any other TC in the country (I already looked up the info from LFDTS)
#8 OP SEC REASON can't state. Trust me its a damn good reason. Very damn good reason. Extremely damn good reason.
#9 What alternative would there be in this part of Ontario?

Don't look at the small size of the training area and think its nothing but a sleepy little unit. It is far more busier than you could imagine.

 

[Sig_Des]

We're all in the Forces, I'm not debating whether I'm going to follow orders and move. I'm debating the actual cost savings and effort involved in morning 2 large and unique Signal units and 1 large school.

Too easy. Get rid of JSR. Drop it down to a Sqn, and spread the remaining assets to the Bde Sqns

 

[DCRabbit]

Well, lets see........we responded to the Winnipeg floods well enough. We responded to the 98 ice storms too........Even managed to respond not too long ago to incidents in Newfoundland did we not ? Even managed to respond to fires in BC.....managed to be ready for major flooding in BC.........The Vancouver olympics....remember those ? Hell....lets talk about Oka......

Any kind of force.......wtf ??

  Yes I remember those.. great jobs done at all of them. I also remember the FLQ crisis cos my father was there. But what happens if there's an FLQ or an Oka type crisis or a major terrorist incident in the Golden Horseshoe area or the nation's capital? There's nothing left in the area to handle it. What if Caledonia suddenly boils over and other bands launch their own Caladonias in support? The odds of this happening are very slim.. but they're better than those of the country being invaded. But the topic is budget cuts.. and if the CF wants to sell itself to the public for more money for equipment. it needs to show it's there directly for the people first.. not constantly ready for overseas.. and handling environmental crises isn't enuff to do it. The public has to see troops where the people are, engaged with the people and equipped locally to defend the people on the message that there is a credible possibility of a local threat. Not based far away in places most people haven't heard of. Cos if any of the above happens and the response is days coming rather than hours then there's gonna be hard questions asked and harder cuts following.

But eh.. I'm prolly getting off topic so I will thank you for your replies and go back to lurking. Please take care.

 

[DCRabbit]

Close Meaford? Your right out of your depth my friend.
#1 Meaford is one the cheapest bases to run in the CF (Well technically a TC)
#2 It generates income from a large number of Police and Security agencies that PAY MONEY to use the facilities when its in slow peroid
#3 Borden is actually quite full and the templating in Borden is limited
#4 You can fire alot of cool weapons in Meaford given the unique way the impact area is laid out (the Hogs back road is closed regularly for larger weapon shoots). The templating is very flexible for such a small base
#5 What encroaching condos? Seriously the houses and condos on the meaford town Lakeshore have been there a long time. The town has seen very limited growth and you won't see much more
#6 Do you have any idea how many PRes units use Meaford? It would create a huge black hole for units in central Ontario to train. Borden is a very limited option
#7 The TC trains more DP1 Infantry (Reg F and Res) than any other TC in the country (I already looked up the info from LFDTS)
#8 OP SEC REASON can't state. Trust me its a damn good reason. Very damn good reason. Extremely damn good reason.
#9 What alternative would there be in this part of Ontario?

Don't look at the small size of the training area and think its nothing but a sleepy little unit. It is far more busier than you could imagine.

This is stuff I obviously do not know. Thank you very much for the info and your post. Back to lurking for me.

 

[aesop081]

  Yes I remember those.. great jobs done at all of them. I also remember the FLQ crisis cos my father was there. But what happens if there's an FLQ or an Oka type crisis or a major terrorist incident in the Golden Horseshoe area or the nation's capital? There's nothing left in the area to handle it.

You know that Petawawa is only an hour away right ? You know that they several reserve units in the Ottawa area right ?

not constantly ready for overseas..

Thats where the wars are happening.

But eh.. I'm prolly getting off topic so I will thank you for your replies and go back to lurking. Please take care.

Maybe not off-topic but certainly outside of you comfort zone.

 

[Wookilar]

Waintwright is out for expansion. It is pretty much at its peak now. The whole area is constrained by one thing, clean drinking water. The plants now are pretty much at full capacity, given the rapid growth in the last few years. If we had moved to Wainwright instead of Edmonton in the first place, maybe we'd be ok.

Water was the reason given back then as well.

Wook

 

[Loachman]

There is one operational unit in Borden: the Mighty 400 Squadron. Borden is the only suitable location for a Tac Hel Squadron in Southern Ontario. It is central to Petawawa (many missions are conducted there since 427 Squadron was cut to CANSOFCOM), Meaford, Trenton (for long-range deployment purposes such as Op Podium, Op Nanook, and any future domestic or international relief ops) LFCA/JTFC HQ in Downsview, Res Force units in Southern Ontario, and a reasonable population base for its own Res Force people. It has decent on- and off-base tactical low flying areas, and good base infrastructure.

I am skeptical of perceived cost benefits from consolidating bases. Unless we reduce our personnel numbers, people require equivalent infrastructure wherever they are. Close a unit's buildings on one base, and new buildings have to be built in the new location. There's a cost for that, and a cost for the move. What savings, exactly, would result from a move of, say, all of the schools and units at Borden or Kingston?

An operational reason for a move, such as proximity to training areas, I can accept. I do not readily accept that fewer but bigger bases necessarily translate into cost savings.

 

[George Wallace]

..........I have been posted to ________, _____________, __________, ___________ and Lahr.

Lahr: a prime example of Base Closures due to perceived “cost savings” and the “Peace Dividend”.  With the “Fall of the Wall” and end of our commitment to Peacekeeping in Cyprus, the Mulroney Government thought that closing down our two Bases in Germany would save us a fairly large chunk of change.  Then along came Bosnia and Kosovo, then Afghanistan.  We no longer had a Forward Staging Base for those operations in the Middle East, Africa and Southern Asia.  We all can see where Camp Mirage is going.  Foresight is a hard thing to master, and I don’t think we have even the most rudimentary grasp of it now, nor in the past fifteen to twenty years.

Yes, it cost X Billion Cdn dollars to keep our Bde and Air Wing in Germany, but it was like a Master Card commercial:

To keep the Bde in Germany –  $ X Billion Cdn
Training and working with the Germans, Brits, Americans, Dutch, French, etc. – PRICELESS!

How do you put a price on the experience gained from working with troops from these foreign nations and learning lessons on interoperability? 

 

[vonGarvin]

There was an argument previously about terror attacks in Canada, and how the CF would respond.  One must remember that although the CF's raison d'être is the defence of Canada, that role within Canada (other than fighting off Fenian raids, etc) is provided by the Police, RCMP, etc.  So, if there is an "incident", the CF's role, if any, would be in a supporting role.


As we have seen, our police forces have done an outstanding job in finding, fixing and striking terror cells within Canada.  A LAV 3 APC Platoon, in 3-up T in front of Parliament Hill does not make the House of Commons safe from anything other than attacks by BMPs.

 

[AC 011]

Close Meaford? Your right out of your depth my friend.
...
#8 OP SEC REASON can't state. Trust me its a damn good reason. Very damn good reason. Extremely damn good reason.
...

I knew it!  The Weather Vortex Generator does exist.  How else do you explain snow in June.  ;D

 

[Jammer]

The Fenians are back???? We'll burn the potato crops.
Reinstate the Fort Garry Horse!

 

[George Wallace]

That horse was put out to pasture a long time ago.  ;D


Of course one could also call into question where the 12 Rubber Boots have room to play.

 

[Blackadder1916]

The staff college in Toronto could be moved and sell off the land.  Set it up in Meaford or Gagetown. 

I highly doubt that Meaford or Gagetown are suitable for a Staff College that hosts numerous foreign officers to a greater benefit and less expense than Toronto.

The move of Staff College out of Toronto to Ottawa (or the surrounding area) would actually be suitable:

-  It would still be in a "major" city that attracts many of the "guest" lecturers (and foreigners);
-  Since many of the graduates' follow-on postings are to staff jobs they would already be located in the same area as their potential next employment;
-  Being in the PLD reference city, there would be some reduced costs in allowances to staff/students;

 

[Old Sweat]

There was an argument previously about terror attacks in Canada, and how the CF would respond.  One must remember that although the CF's raison d'être is the defence of Canada, that role within Canada (other than fighting off Fenian raids, etc) is provided by the Police, RCMP, etc.  So, if there is an "incident", the CF's role, if any, would be in a supporting role.

Pretty well, except for certain units in SOFCOM. Leaving them aside, I can envisage cases such as happened in Ops Essay and Ginger (aka The FLQ Crisis) where the CF could take on certain security of personnel and installations roles, thus freeing up police for policing duties. There is also a bit of a comfort zone effect to the general public in just being seen. Anyone remember the effect of a pair of CF18s making a few passes over Toronto and Ottawa on 9/11 2001?

Edit: Op Ginger was the guarding of personnel and installations in the National Capital Region in support of the Federal Government

Op Essay was Aid of the Civil Power in response to a requisition submitted to the CDS by the Attorney General of Quebec.

 

[McG]

I am skeptical of perceived cost benefits from consolidating bases. Unless we reduce our personnel numbers, people require equivalent infrastructure wherever they are. Close a unit's buildings on one base, and new buildings have to be built in the new location. ...

... I do not readily accept that fewer but bigger bases necessarily translate into cost savings.

There would be savings in TD (as the frequency of things being somewhere else reduces), SWE (as one-of positions are eliminated on closed bases and staffing efficiencies are realized on larger bases), PLD (assuming movement is from high-cost to lower-cost places), PILT (again, assuming movement is from high-cost to lower-cost places), and relocations (as more no-cost moves become possible).

However, I see the biggest savings being in PYs which can be reinvested from bases into operational organizations. 

Where elements of the institutional structure (bases, stations, depots, schools, static support units, non-deployable HQs and any other organization outside the field force, operational air units and the fleets) are superfluous, those elements self-generate superfluous work.  In the case of superfluous HQs (even unit & base HQs) the reports & returns, information tracking, information processing, planning efforts, etc are all unnecessary consumption of effort - often the amount of work that goes into this effort is used to justify growth or retention of PYs.  The CF and DND also has a vast array of work that is mandated of every unit and formation - this is more work that only exists because a unit/formation exists.  Here again, growth is justified in order get the mandated work done but no discussion occures as to whether there is even a requirement for the organization who's existence creates the work.

So, if one eliminates a base (or an intermediate HQ) then there is a lot of work that simply disappears with the organization.  Granted, there will be a requirement for PYs to reinforce bases that become the new homes to the lodger units of closed bases.  But, there will also be PYs freed for reinvestment into operational units and schools/training centres.

This is not to say that there should be a wholesale elimination of bases and intermediate HQs.  It might be an irreversible mistake if a base closure results in a CF wide training area shortage for land operations, and it would take years to recover from the effects of closing an HQ only to discover that is necessary.  Instead this is a suggestion bases and intermediate HQs should be deliberately assessed for thier value-added and necessity.  One could then ask, what is the opportunity cost of keeping a base (or intermediate HQ) as opposed to reinvesting the PYs. 

 

[pbi]

I doubt we'll see anything too shocking in the way of base closures. First, it won't be a military decision. The inescapable regional political realities of this country would, I think, prevent anything like the closure of Gagetown or Winnipeg. Kingston was tried a few years ago (remember that...?) and IIRC the local pressures were instumental in not only its retention, but its recent expansion and ongoing renovations. (It's one of the three biggest employers here, along with the City itself and Queens U). The bad will, political wrangling and inevitable cost overruns resulting from any large scale force relocations would scare most Canadian governments away, especially a minority Govt.

If your recall the last big round of base "closures" back in the 90s, also as a result of crisis economic measures, then you'll recall despite all the screaming and yelling that almost no major facilities, with the exception of Kapyong Barracks, were actually closed. Alot (like Calgary and Chilliwack) were reduced to ASUs or such, but we are more or less left with a pretty similar base footprint as we had prior to that round of cuts. And tis, I think, is what we will always look like.

IMHO, the pound of flesh will come from some other source, either creative accounting, capital purchases, or (worst of all) an ill-considered hacking of people (think of the FRP fiasco that took years to recover from). I can't see any Govt with the stomach for the fight that a round of base closures will cause, especially in provinces that lose a major facility.

Cheers

 

[Retired AF Guy]

Here, in an article reproduced under the fair Dealing provisions (§29) of the Copyright Act from the Globe and Mail, is one of my favourite topics:

http://www.theglobeandmail.com/news/national/time-to-lead/military/tough-choices-for-defence-spending/article1771105/

My choice for bases to be retained:

• Esquimalt;
• Comox – expanded, if we can;
• Wainwright – much expanded;

I remember mentioning the same idea to friend of mine (PPCLI) and he quite literally choked on his beer. I don't think many families would be happy about moving from Edmonton to the boondocks of Wainwright.

• Lloydminster NEW!

I've been out of the forces for a few years, but when did we open a base in Lloydminister?? Not that I'm against it, but just surprised.

• Cold Lake – expanded;

Is there any room for expansion. My understanding is that things were getting full.

• Kingston – retained, mainly, for historic reasons, but reduced to, essentially, on the Royal Military College and the Joint Staff College and a (revived) National Defence College;

Closing or even reducing CFB Kingston would be devastating economically and political suicide to whichever party suggested it. If you don't think so, just look at the hooray about closing two prison farms that a employed a couple of dozen inmates and housed a bunch of cattle.

That means that the following bases, at least, are closed – but DND will retain some facilities there:

• Edmonton;

And move them where? Wainwright?? See above post.

• Moose Jaw;

Besides CFAD Dundurn only military base in Saskatchewan. Ain't going to happen.

• Winnipeg;

Home for 435 Transport and Rescue Sqn. In its rescue role it covers Manitoba and western Ontario. Moving it would result in longer deployment times for rescue operations. 

• Trenton;

They've just spent (and continue to spend) millions expanding the base. I would think it would be politically unacceptable to do so and a waste of taxpayers money. That's not to say something couldn't be done to downsize the base. My suggestion is that you could more some transport aircraft to North Bay. North Bay has the room for expansion and it has a large airfield that's capable of taking large aircraft including AN-124 Condor's. It would also be good for the economy (pork barreling I know) and politically. I know some have suggested closing down North Bay, but remember DND just spent tens of million of dollars on a new NORAD Air Defence HQ so closing it and moving it somewhere else is crazy. Besides, that bunker may come in handle down the road. 

Just my two cents.

 

[birdgunnnersrule]

I have been browsing this topic with some interest.

The reduction in the number of headquarters or the consolidation of a couple of the commands would be more palatable politically than base closures.  Reducing top heavy HQ`s may not put the correct pyramid structure back into the field as these tend to be diamond shaped. There would be some career stagnation similar to the 1990`s as we await a large number of Maj plus ranks to retire as these ranks will not provide the boots on the ground immediately.  It would also provide the current government to direct any lessons learned or recommendations for consolidation towards our previous outspoken and highly respected CDS. 

With a minority government, it would be political suicide to close bases and this, if it does ever happen will occur, during a majority and only when the government can provide an alternate IRB into the region offset economic impacts.  Small units like Moncton, having done the commute and had the headquarters located 90 minutes away from bulk of the soldiers in Gagetown sucked.  These are the bases that should be scrutinized for the return on investment. 

Small bases such as Moncton and Goose Bay would still be a politically lightning rod to close, but much easier if there was a majority.


My two cents!

 

[aesop081]

Goose Bay

That one is my candidate for immediate elimination. How much longer do we have to pay for a base that no one, including us, uses ?

 

[Kiwi99]

So, with all the talk about retention we are know talking about closing bases and moving not only soldiers but their families with them.  Sad thing is, a lot of those spouses cannot move their jobs.  Picking up 1CMBG complete and moving it to Wainwright is not doing a lot for retention of soldiers.  Sure, the Govt and DND may save money, but they would for sure be losing experience in the form of countless veterans of all trades and ranks.  MONEY SAVED does not but this experience when it is suddenly needed again.

Here's an idea for the Government; stop sending money to these half-a$$ed third world countries with no idea of whose hands it actually end s up in.  Use that money in Canada, on our homeless, our schools, our veterans etc. Foreign aid handouts and compensation payments to shady characters who claim to be tortured by other countries is a waste.