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Base closures?

The_Dictat said:
CFB Esquimalt needs a proper navy sounding name like Halifax has HMC Dockyard

Ideas?

Well in Esquimalt the Dockyard is called HMC Dockyard. Naden is the home to the base administration and Fleet School. Wouldn't be much of a change to go from CFB Esquimalt to HMC Dockyard and HMCS NADEN and CFB Halifax to HMC Dockyard and HMCS STADACONA. Don't know why we would want to though.
 
Doug Bland, Queens University, is (was waaaaay back when, anyway) a good soldier and he is also a respected scholar, and he suggests, in an article in the Ottawa Citizen, that the "fat" is to be found in "headquarters staffs, public service positions and infrastructure costs." He says, further, that "If Trudeau truly intends to build a “leaner, more agile” military, then he must act to protect the military muscle and cut away the bureaucratic fat. Fortunately, there is an untapped layer of fat that could provide adequate funds to reinforce the present structure and rebuild operational muscle."

Prof Bland's solution includes cutting some of the 38 bases and stations ... some he says, "are critically important to the Canadian Forces’ operations and thus to Canada’s national defence."

I agree and I would count, inter alia, Alert (and similar stations), Comox, Esquimalt, Cold Lake, Leitrim (or some place like it to put the unit that's there), and Halifax being, obviously, essential. I'm sure we need, must have some other good flying stations for operations and training ~ Moose Jaw, Trenton, Bagotville, Greenwood, is that enough? We also need three, preferably six full brigade bases: three "staffed" with regular force brigades and two or three "vacant," with facilities for reserve training. We need some service schools, too ... but couldn't we close Borden, for example, and move its schools to, say, primarily Cold Lake and Gagetown? A couple of bases, the Citadel in Quebec and Kingston - RMC and Fort Frontenac, at least, have great historic significance and are, probably, "permanent." But do we need the rest of CFB Kingston or could it be moved to, say, Gagetown and Trenton? Or, if we must keep Forts Frederick and Frontenac shouldn't we expand Kingston into a major military installation ... perhaps with things from Borden? Anyway, that's just musing ...

Prof Bland says we can close 12 bases ...

What do you think, netizens?
 
His key line:  "The challenge in such a process is to produce defensible recommendations while holding at bay political lobbyists and partisan pleading." 

Sometimes my cynicism is just experience-based reality, but I can't see it happening.  There are simply too many supporters Trudeau et al   are beholden to, whose underlying premise is "it's our turn."
 
On the RCAF side, I've always thought the LRP and MH fleets could be co-located in Greenwood and Comox.  However, there has just been recent infrastructure spending in both Pat Bay and Shearwater.  Coupled with that would be the major reason this move would never happen (IMO);  politics.  Moving to those (more logical) locations would mean loss of jobs in the areas they are in now.  This was hinted at in the article.

I would like to see the list of the 12 bases/locations that went unnamed in the article that could be closed with zero impact on operational effectiveness, but I could see the RCAF consolidating some of the X CFFTSs. 

The question isn't if it makes military sense, the question is "is the potential savings worth the possible political fallout" when people face the realities of a base closure like Summerside did back in the early '90s.  But, we are constantly downsizing, doing less with more.  33 Argus's were replaced with 18 Aurora's, 14 of them are left and at age 35 or so today, they are supposed to fly until 2030.  LSVWs anyone?  No mukluks in the system in recent years.  Hell, we can't even get name tags at supply. 

Examples like that are why I don't really pay attention to anything anyone who isn't in a uniform and posted to an operational unit says when they start using words like leaner and more agile.  They are just buzzwords to most people. 
 
I agree with JM on this one. Doug Bland, who I think I first met on the Combat Intelligence course in 1964, has presented a logical, reasoned argument for an approach that doesn't have a hope of being implemented. Perhaps the only option is to start with a cut in the GOFOs and then reduce the rank pyramids beneath them that, cynically I'll admit, seem to exist for no other reason than to provide meaningful career progression for a quarter of the CAF.
 
Journeyman said:
His key line:  "The challenge in such a process is to produce defensible recommendations while holding at bay political lobbyists and partisan pleading." 

Sometimes my cynicism is just experience-based reality, but I can't see it happening.  There are simply too many supporters Trudeau et al   are beholden to, whose underlying premise is "it's our turn."


Agreed, but in fairness to politicians, back (it's a waaaaay back thing, again) when I was in the staff college our baseline, absolute bare-ass to the breeze minimum force structire was 1R22eR in CFB Summerside ... and guess what? They finally had the balls to close Summerside ... miracles can happen if you pray drink hard enough
 
E.R. Campbell said:
Prof Bland says we can close 12 bases ...

What do you think, netizens?
Not worried if units (especially if this can be done incrementally) are relocated to make better use of one base, while saving on overhead at another.

Dislike the possible next steps - tearing down infrastructure and/or selling the base. What sort of, and how much, basing we should have in reserve I don't know, but seems that the demo-and-divest option might be short-sighted. Wouldn't mind defence land being almost as hard to sell, once acquired, as national parks. As far as infrastructure, the ability to house a bunch of people, be they recruits, out-of-area units on DOMOPS, pers on large exercises, or foreign or domestic displaced persons, seems one worth maintaining - not necessarily as a solely DND line item. Maybe have a look at PILT, and whether building footprint is really the best way to calculate it.
 
E.R. Campbell said:
They finally had the balls to close Summerside ... miracles can happen if you pray drink hard enough

Except Summerside was a better location than Greenwood and should have been the base that survived...
 
Eye In The Sky said:
On the RCAF side, I've always thought the LRP and MH fleets could be co-located in Greenwood and Comox.  However, there has just been recent infrastructure spending in both Pat Bay and Shearwater.  Coupled with that would be the major reason this move would never happen (IMO);  politics.  Moving to those (more logical) locations would mean loss of jobs in the areas they are in now.  This was hinted at in the article.

Isn't the old joke that if there is large infrastructure building going on, that means the base is being closed? 

Also, I'd keep that suggestion of MH going to Greenwood/Comox quiet - you'd get lynched by those who are used to Victoria and scoff at Halifax!  ;) 
 
I've spoken to some people who were involved in previous base closures (London and Calgary, specifically) and it seemed to my uneducated as well as their experienced eyes that minimal savings are involved, and least over the course of the first few decades. Environmental remediation is costly as hell, and the military wasn't exactly treating our land with great respect and restraint. More like dumping ammo and fuel anywhere we could. You'd save money on PILT, but you'll be cleaning up UXO for decades before you turn the impact area into a golf course.

Now, rebalancing forces does make some sense, I remember back when the units of 1 Brigade were spread over 5 garrisons. Now it's on 2, which is clearly better for promoting combined arms training and saving on cost moves. Would 1 garrison per brigade be better (like Valcartier is now)? Maybe. But if you flat out closed either Edmonton or Shilo you'd be remediating environmental damage for decades. Now, concentrating the brigade in one garrison, and then downsizing the other base without fully closing it seems a better option. But turning a big base into a little base isn't base closure, it's just downsizing. North Bay losing aircraft and Esquimalt and Winnipeg losing infantry weren't really base closures, as the article seems to suggest.
 
Hell, Edmonton can't use dud producing munitions such as Arty sims and any major training would occur in Wainwrong or Shilo. Good luck selling a base like Shilo given the impact area and they find projectiles many times when digging on the non training side of Range Control. The cost to clean up a base is astronomical.
 
Sheep Dog AT said:
Hell, Edmonton can't use dud producing munitions such as Arty sims and any major training would occur in Wainwrong or Shilo. Good luck selling a base like Shilo given the impact area and they find projectiles many times when digging on the non training side of Range Control. The cost to clean up a base is astronomical.

Then move out the units & cut the base support (BComd et al), and retain the training area.  Much smaller staff - no BOR, no messes, no supply, no transport... just units rolling in, checking in with Range Control, and carrying on.
 
dapaterson said:
Then move out the units & cut the base support (BComd et al), and retain the training area.  Much smaller staff - no BOR, no messes, no supply, no transport... just units rolling in, checking in with Range Control, and carrying on.

Pretty much the way the Australian Army does it.  Garrisons are in cities, and when they need to go to the range, they convoy out there and back. 
 
Sheep Dog AT said:
Hell, Edmonton can't use dud producing munitions such as Arty sims and any major training would occur in Wainwrong or Shilo. Good luck selling a base like Shilo given the impact area and they find projectiles many times when digging on the non training side of Range Control. The cost to clean up a base is astronomical.

Being in Shilo, I think that moving 2 VP and 1 RCHA to Edmonton (as was the plan back in 2004 when 2 VP came here from Winnipeg) makes complete sense from a support and training point of view-  1 Svc Bn would support the entire brigade, not just the brigade minus 2 units and all units could train together (simulation in Edmonton, real in wainwright). That said, the intent from my understanding would be to maintain a minimal footprint in Shilo to support reserve training in Manitoba/Saskatchewan and not right out sell the base.

Shilo, specifically, is in desperate need of significant infrastructure investments in the future, including a new kitchen, new barracks, new water mains, etc and the savings from not doing that would be beneficial. 
 
Bird_Gunner45 said:
Shilo, specifically, is in desperate need of significant infrastructure investments in the future, including a new kitchen, new barracks, new water mains, etc and the savings from not doing that would be beneficial.

As well as a new Officer's Mess, since the existing one decided to self-destruct a couple years ago.

That is the sort of thing that makes perfect sense. Mass 1CMBG complete in Edmonton, and treat Shilo like Meaford, just a minor garrison. That saves you the incredible cleanup cost.

And because it makes so much sense, it won't happen. Instead we'll do something weird and idiotic, like close down Primrose Lake and CFB Suffield, spend trillions cleaning up old weapons, and wonder why closing two such big bases didn't save us any money.
 
Bird_Gunner45 said:
Being in Shilo, I think that moving 2 VP and 1 RCHA to Edmonton (as was the plan back in 2004 when 2 VP came here from Winnipeg) makes complete sense from a support and training point of view-  1 Svc Bn would support the entire brigade, not just the brigade minus 2 units and all units could train together (simulation in Edmonton, real in wainwright). That said, the intent from my understanding would be to maintain a minimal footprint in Shilo to support reserve training in Manitoba/Saskatchewan and not right out sell the base. .

How about the other way around where 1 CMBG moves to Shilo, so we have a CMBG and training area co-located for all events?

MC
 
milnews.ca said:
For a bit of background, here's the DRDC's study & lists from previous postings - enjoy!

Standby for split & merge ...
My apologies - the link & attachments seem screwed.  I've added a new link for an exec summary of the report, and will share the full report when I find it again online.

Links fixed, with attachments re-added and available again - attached below are the exec summary and list of bases from the 2010 DRDC report (top of chart = most worth saving) FYI.

Please continue ...
 
MedCorps said:
How about the other way around where 1 CMBG moves to Shilo, so we have a CMBG and training area co-located for all events?

MC

The training area in Shilo is inadequate to host a Bde level exercise due to its size and the garrison facilities are COMPLETELY inadequate to support a brigade. It would require building a new Gym, 20-30 buildings, streets, street lights, thousands of PMQs, etc. I suspect by the time the infrastructure was in place the training area here would be extremely reduced. In the west the only 2 bases that could host bde level events are Wainwright and Suffield, so you would have to move the entire brigade to either of those spots. If 1 CMBG moved to wainwright than CMTC would need to move (realistically speaking) and Suffield is leased to the British and a source of major income. Both would require MASSIVE infrastructure investment to make it worthwhile. In this case, it would be more logical to move 2 units to Edmonton, which has the infrastructure in place (or civilian equivalents) and pay to train in wainwright, Suffield, or Shilo on a semi-regular basis.
 
Close CMTC.  It's expensive and forces an unhealthy obsession with using it "since we're spending the money anyways".  It was and is a mistake.
 
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