AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)

[Colin Parkinson]

You have to use the word "joint" to get anything built these days.

We can make it revenue neutral by moving product from Jamaica, when not needed by the military. Just taking a new twist on "Joint"  8)

 

[garb811]

The federal government has approved plans to start some work on the navy's new support ships in the coming months in a bid to keep delivery of the much-needed vessels from slipping farther behind schedule.

Seaspan Shipyards is expected to begin cutting steel on some parts of the two vessels in Vancouver this summer during a lull in the construction of two science vessels for the Canadian Coast Guard, several sources told The Canadian Press.

The science vessels will still be delivered first, but officials are hoping that the head start will result in the first Protecteur-class joint support ship, as the naval vessels are officially known, being delivered 2022.

More at link:  Feds OK early start to construction of navy's new supply ships

 

[Underway]

Thought this was going to happen.  Seaspan had identified a number of blocks they could start building concurrently that will not change as the design is finalized.  IIRC it was the bow section that didn't require any changes from the Bohnn design.

 

[Colin Parkinson]

Good plan the 2 remaining OFSV will be finished soon, the SV design has some sort of issues that people don't want to talk about, I but going by other Federal designs, I will assume stability being a major factor.

 

[MarkOttawa]

Gov't still hoping partial JSS pre-build will allow 2022 first delivery date--on verra:

Cost questions abound as work set to start on navy's new support ships

The cutting of steel for the navy's long overdue support ships will begin next month in Vancouver, even though the federal government doesn't know how much the two vessels will ultimately cost.

Federal procurement minister Carla Qualtrough confirmed plans for an early start to work on the supply ships during a breakfast address Thursday at the Cansec defence show in Ottawa.

Seaspan Shipyards will receive $66 million to work on several dozen components of the so-called joint support ships during a lull in the building of two other Canadian Coast Guard vessels.

The government is hoping that advance work will shave about a year off the expected delivery time for the first support vessel, which is currently slated to hit the water in 2023.

It will also ensure Seaspan continues to have work for its employees during what would otherwise be a dead zone between construction of the last of three coast guard fisheries vessels and a new coast guard ocean science ship.

"These support ships will deliver fuel and other vital supplies to vessels at sea," Qualtrough said, "ensuring our women and men of the Canadian Armed Forces are able to carry out their missions for decades to come."

The navy has been without a permanent support ship since retiring its last two in 2015 because of an unexpected fire and excessive corrosion, and is currently relying on a converted civilian vessel to fill the gap.

The first new vessel was originally supposed to be delivered in 2019, but the project has been plagued with delays.

Even as work is set to begin, however, Qualtrough conceded later that the government still doesn't have a concrete estimate of how much the two joint support ships are going to cost.

"It's too early to speculate on what the (support ships) will ultimately cost," she said.

The previous Conservative government set a budget of $2.3 billion for the vessels back in 2011, but that number has been under review for nearly two years.

The parliamentary budget office pegged the full cost of two support ships back in 2013 at $4.13 billion, while the government's new defence investment plan, released this week, said it could cost up to $4.99 billion.

"There are a lot of things happening on (the support ships)," said Andre Fillion, head of military procurement at Public Services and Procurement Canada.

"The acquisition of long lead items, the start of the (early work) and also a lot of engineering work."

Seaspan vice-president Tim Page told The Canadian Press that the shipbuilder is in negotiations with the government, but remains committed to delivering the support ships to the navy.

Starting work early is a reasonable solution to what would otherwise be a troublesome lull in work at Seaspan, said defence analyst David Perry of the Canadian Global Affairs Institute.

But the government still doesn't have an approved design [emphasis added] for the support ships, he said, and the whole point of the federal government's multibillion-dollar shipbuilding strategy was to prevent such production gaps.

"It's a solution to an immediate problem," Perry said, "but it's not by any means an ideal scenario."

The government is hoping that advance work will shave about a year off the expected delivery time for the first support vessel, which is currently slated to hit the water in 2023.

It will also ensure Seaspan continues to have work for its employees during what would otherwise be a dead zone between construction of the last of three coast guard fisheries vessels and a new coast guard ocean science ship...

Even as work is set to begin, however, Qualtrough conceded later that the government still doesn't have a concrete estimate of how much the two joint support ships are going to cost.

"It's too early to speculate on what the (support ships) will ultimately cost," she said.

The previous Conservative government set a budget of $2.3 billion for the vessels back in 2011, but that number has been under review for nearly two years.

The parliamentary budget office pegged the full cost of two support ships back in 2013 at $4.13 billion, while the government's new defence investment plan, released this week, said it could cost up to $4.99 billion...
https://www.ctvnews.ca/politics/cost-questions-abound-as-work-set-to-start-on-navy-s-new-support-ships-1.3954033

Absurd build-in-Canada cost.

Tweet from RUSI Nova Scotia, May 31:

@RUSI_NS

RUSI(NS)
Each JSS has 123 blocks. Under "early block build" (EBB) 26 blocks/ship for total 52 to be built.  Of low complexity (basically boxes w minor outfitting as piping) so not to deduce that after EBB ea JSS will be 20% built
...
https://twitter.com/RUSI_NS/status/1002332123460751361

This is what government's just released "Defence Capabilities Blueprint" say about JSS:

...
Objective

To deliver two Joint Support Ships [only, emphasis added] to replace the the Royal Canadian Navy’s Auxiliary Oiler Replenishment vessels that have reached the end of their service. The capabilities required of the Joint Support Ships are crucial to the Royal Canadian Navy. These new Protectueur-class ships will enable a Naval Task Group to remain at sea for extended periods of time. These vessels will provide core replensihment capabilities, plus added capacity for limited sealift and limited support to operations ashore.

Requirements

The JSS will provide at-sea support to a deployed Canadian Naval Task Group, limited sealift and support to operations ashore. In June 2013, Canada selected the German Berlin Class design as the basis for the JSS. The JSS's capabilities will underpin Canada’s ability to deploy and sustain Canada’s naval forces worldwide for extended periods. The JSS will have a crew of up to 199 personnel plus its air detachment and mission personnel for a total of 239 onboard accommodations. The JSS will be capable of 20+ kts, with a range of 10800 nautical miles with ice edge capability to access Nanisivik Naval Facility in the summer navigation season. Its two dual-purpose RAS stations will provide 29 days support to a Canadian Naval Task Group for both fuel and supplies. The JSS will carry two organic CH 148 Cyclone maritime helicopters and will also provide second level maintenance capabilities for the Naval Task Group’s helicopters. It will be fitted with self-protection systems such as Degaussing, NIXIE torpedo decoy, Chemical Biological Radiological Nuclear, Close-In Weapons Systems and Naval Remote Weapons System. The JSS medical facilites will include a NATO Role 2E capabilities to support an array of operations including humanitarian assistance and disaster relief. The JSS basic Command, Control, Communications, Computer and Intelligence systems will contribute to the maritime domain awareness. The JSS will also have robust cargo transfer systems for mission payloads to include cranes and a sea to shore connector system.

Funding Ranges

$1 billion to 4.99 billion

Anticipated Timeline (Fiscal Year)

    Past Start Options Anaysis
    Past Start Definition
    2019 to 2020 Start Implementation
    2022 to 2023 Initial Delivery
    2023 to 2024 Final Delivery
http://dgpaapp.forces.gc.ca/en/defence-capabilities-blueprint/project-details.asp?id=949

Mark
Ottawa

 

[OceanBonfire]

https://twitter.com/CanadianForces/status/1002551915094396928

https://www.facebook.com/CanadianForces/photos/a.1524483394445524.1073741830.1522633664630497/2282588675301655/?type=3&theater

 

[Colin Parkinson]

I did the approval on that around a year ago as I recall.

 

[daftandbarmy]

I did the approval on that around a year ago as I recall.

How many times did you have to send it back for edits?

 

[Czech_pivo]

News on the cost and new timelines for the JSS.
https://www.cbc.ca/amp/1.4693088

With these costs and timelines, we can kiss any chance of a third JSS good bye for certain.

 

[Cloud Cover]

Time to cancel and buy off shore. I was all for Canadian shipbuilding, but that price is stupid.

 

[Stoker]

Time to cancel and buy off shore. I was all for Canadian shipbuilding, but that price is stupid.

That's never going to happen, the contract is signed and pulling out now will cost the government dearly.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

Most expensive oiler ever  :rofl:

This is yet another confirmation for me why I don't invest in Canadian Companies and put all my money in to foreign and american investments.  We couldn't build a product anyone wants for a reasonable price if we tried.

 

[FSTO]

I wonder if anyone told the bright people at Treasury Board that this would happen when they denied any proposal to continue building government ships at Saint Johns Shipyards after the completion of the CPF Project.

Just a reminder
At her heyday.

And the result now after how many billions spent to get this place up to speed?


God-damn criminal as far as I'm concerned.

 

[Humphrey Bogart]

I wonder if anyone told the bright people at Treasury Board that this would happen when they denied any proposal to continue building government ships at Saint Johns Shipyards after the completion of the CPF Project.

Just a reminder
At her heyday.

And the result now after how many billions spent to get this place up to speed?


God-damn criminal as far as I'm concerned.

The problem with Saint John is it's a Tory city.  The Chrétien Government was never going to give them any money when all these decisions were made.  Actually, the Government gave Irving $200 million to decommission the Shipyard and there now sits two Irving Mills on the site.  We paid them to decommission a shipyard that had been building large vessels and Naval Ships for 100+ years.

We paid them again to build a new yard, in a new city that had never had a history of building large ships!

 

[FSTO]

The problem with Saint John is it's a Tory city.  The Chrétien Government was never going to give them any money when all these decisions were made.  Actually, the Government gave Irving $200 million to decommission the Shipyard and there now sits two Irving Mills on the site.  We paid them to decommission a shipyard that had been building large vessels and Naval Ships for 100+ years.

We paid them again to build a new yard, in a new city that had never had a history of building large ships!

:brickwall:

 

[Colin Parkinson]

The accounting methods are half the problem, the Jetties needed rebuilding, no matter what new ship you docked there, stupidity. So 60% 0f 3.4Billion is roughly 1.9billion for the 2 ships, still pricey, but then what isn't in Canada. I respect what Davie has done, but starting a new build with 3/4 finished design specs, would their costs be much different? 

 

[Kirkhill]

The problem with Saint John is it's a Tory city.  The Chrétien Government was never going to give them any money when all these decisions were made.  Actually, the Government gave Irving $200 million to decommission the Shipyard and there now sits two Irving Mills on the site.  We paid them to decommission a shipyard that had been building large vessels and Naval Ships for 100+ years.

We paid them again to build a new yard, in a new city that had never had a history of building large ships!

Pay to build a yard.

Pay to destroy a yard.

Pay to build a yard.....

Keynes is happy.

 

[MarkOttawa]

Meanwhile Royal Navy is paying about $200 million each for four built quickly in South Korea by Daewoo Tides Class replenishment ships of 37,000t--may be less capable than JSS in some aspects but given that our cost is now $1.7 billion per ship (even if costings quite dissimilar) our paying almost nine times as much for each is insane:
https://www.naval-technology.com/projects/tide-class-mars-royal-fleet-auxiliary-tankers/

Mark
Ottawa

 

[FSTO]

It would be nice if the bureaucrats involved would itemize the costs of the project.
How much is for infrastructure? How much is wages to build the infrastructure.

All we hear is 4 Billion dollars for 2 ships and people lose their minds.

 

[Stoker]

Meanwhile Royal Navy is paying about $200 million each for four built quickly in South Korea by Daewoo Tides Class replenishment ships of 37,000t--may be less capable than JSS in some aspects but given that our cost is now $1.7 billion per ship (even if costings quite dissimilar) our paying almost nine times as much for each is insane:
https://www.naval-technology.com/projects/tide-class-mars-royal-fleet-auxiliary-tankers/

Mark
Ottawa

Aren't we factoring in the cost of the JSS rebuilding new jetties and maintenance?