AOR Replacement & the Joint Support Ship (Merged Threads)

[Colin Parkinson]

The brits envisioned 5 different ship classes to do what we wanted the JSS to do. 

 

[FSTO]

The brits envisioned 5 different ship classes to do what we wanted the JSS to do.

Hillier and his Big Honking Ship distraction knocked the RCN back from getting an AOR by 10 years at least.

 

[MarkOttawa]

Hillier actually proposed the "Big Honking Ship" in 2005 at end of Martin gov't (along with 3 JSS!):
https://www.pressreader.com/canada/toronto-star/20051107/281565171159844
http://www.navalreview.ca/wp-content/uploads/public/vol1num4/vol1num4art7.pdf

Note the large "Standing Contingency Task Force" the big one was supposed to carry.

Hillier was then misled by Harper's and the Conservatives' promises to recapitalize the armed forces.  He fairly soon realized his mistake.  In his memoirs he is very favourable towards Paul Martin and Bill Graham (as serious people) and effectively damns Harper and Gordon O'Connor between the lines.

Mark
Ottawa

 

[jollyjacktar]

O'Connor certainly was a bloody disappointment to me.  PMSH as well in the end.

 

[Stoker]

Well it appears that Davie will get their wish and provide icebreakers for the Coast guard, so their whining will diminish. So it looks like the Federal Government is not pissed at them after all. At least the coast guard gets ships sooner which is good for everyone.

Davie shipyard poised to supply new icebreakers for coast guard

http://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/montreal/quebec-icebreakers-davie-shipyard-canadian-coast-guard-negotiations-1.4492819

 

[Oldgateboatdriver]

It sounds like the GoC is finally waking up to the "Project Resolute" offer of Davie made two years ago.

http://www.davie.ca/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2017/04/icebreaker-briefing-RESOLUTE-1.pdf

The four icebreakers they own and were offered on loan appear to be the same four, already available to Davie.

This will not be as much work as Project Resolve because the Coast guard is a merchant marine service and their needs are not as specialized. Therefore fewer modifications will be necessary here, coupled with a thorough "mid-life" refit, to provide the Coast guard with three badly needed river ice breakers to supplement or replace the type 1200 ice breakers which are already 35+ years old and one Arctic icebreaker to supplement or replace the ancient Louis St-Laurent, which is falling apart.

By the time Seaspan would have completed the Diefenbaker, the river icebreakers would have been 50 to 55 years old.

At least, now there is an intermediate offering that can rejuvenate the CG fleet of icebreakers while still making their own replacement in the hands of Seaspan should this be the will of the government after the Dief' is completed.

 

[CBH99]

I keep saying it...but...

While the whining can be irritating, and sometimes downright shaming the very government they hope to get work from - they are the shipyard providing innovative solutions to the problems we have right now.  Not 3 years from now, or 5 years from now.  They are the shipyard saying "If we don't follow the standard way of doing things, we can have a ship in the water for you far faster & far cheaper than otherwise possible."

While I understand the NSPS has a bigger goal in mind, Davie is the yard that is providing us with immediate solutions.

 

[Cloud Cover]

Because there were 2 for sale and documents showed that the CPC was very interested in them at the time. Starting from fresh would they be the best choice, I don't know, likely that design or the Aussie/Spanish one. Hulls could be built overseas and outfitting by Davie.

I know that, but buying those Mistrals would have been an epic mistake. Not enough sailors, airmen, helicopters etc. Using them for what they were designed would have broken the back of the army (without radical reorganization) and the navy. 
But, OK,  assume we had bought them, what would refuel and resupply them? Ships that have not been built. What would provide AAD to them? Ships that have not been built. What marine corps force do we have? Well we don't have that either. Taking  parts of light infantry battalions that might be retasked perhaps? What/who would back fill that role. What helicopters do we have that could be attached to act in the manner the NH90 or Merlin would. Old Sea Kings? Take the 47's away from 427 sqn? A couple of Griffins?

That's all too much, and I'm glad the PS managed to wipe up the drool on those damned things. I'm not happy about the damage they did afterwards with the NSS, and it is more pragmatic to build a case for a modest, inexpensive and perhaps even occasionally deployed platform.
Again, I would love a military that could afford to have those types of ships if we were certain to make good use them. I just do not see that in the future for the RCN and the CAF  as a whole.

 

[FSTO]

Again, I would love a military that could afford to have those types of ships if we were certain to make good use them. I just do not see that in the future for the RCN and the CAF  as a whole.

The capability that the Mistral's (or something similar) would really state that "Canada's Back!". With climate change and the threat to coastal populations the deployments for disaster relief alone would make those platforms invaluable.
Maybe we would be forced to do a REAL assessment on what our defence focus should be and maybe it is at the cost of the army and more maritime focus is where this nation can make a real difference. Do we really need the amount of army that we have? Would it not make sense to move some/most/all of those assets to the Navy and Air Force?

But making that kind of decision would take a government that was aware/involved/engaged/GAF about the defence of Canada instead flopping about making empty platitudes about peacekeeping/diversity/social engineering.

 

[Stoker]

It appears that these conversions will provide ice breaking services by Federal Fleet so its probably a lease not a purchase.

 

[Czech_pivo]

It appears that these conversions will provide ice breaking services by Federal Fleet so its probably a lease not a purchase.

The headline of the articles refer to leases, but the PM states that they are looking to purchase them.

 

[Stoker]

The headline of the articles refer to leases, but the PM states that they are looking to purchase them.

I was going by the RESOLUTE brochure.

 

[Cloud Cover]

I don't think the PM knows the difference or actually cares. The main thing for him is looking like he gives a shit about ice jams and buying some votes.

 

[Edward Campbell]

The capability that the Mistral's (or something similar) would really state that "Canada's Back!". With climate change and the threat to coastal populations the deployments for disaster relief alone would make those platforms invaluable.
Maybe we would be forced to do a REAL assessment on what our defence focus should be and maybe it is at the cost of the army and more maritime focus is where this nation can make a real difference. Do we really need the amount of army that we have? Would it not make sense to move some/most/all of those assets to the Navy and Air Force?

But making that kind of decision would take a government that was aware/involved/engaged/GAF about the defence of Canada instead flopping about making empty platitudes about peacekeeping/diversity/social engineering.

I agree with you, but ... except for a very brief period in the early Harper mandate (when Gordon O'Connor, who some dislike, was MND) defence has never been taken seriously by any government ~ not even when "Dief the Chief" nearly tore the country apart over nuclear weapons and we ended up with the Bomarc debacle ~ since Louis St Laurent.

Diefenbaker and Pearson just wished it could be less expensive; Pierre Trudeau hated the military and everything and anything related to it; Mulroney neither knew nor cared; Chrétien was, in some respects, worse than Trudeau père; Martin cared but he couldn't find the right niche for defence in his policy domain; Harper wanted an efficient, effective military but he used DND, mostly, as a cabinet making tool; Trudeau the younger has no idea, at all, about anything so se must not be surprised when he is totally baffled by defence ~ for heaven's sake he's totally baffled by tying his own shoes.  :  Clark, Turner, Campbell ...  :rofl:

Defence is not a priority for Canadians and our political leaders have understood that for the last 65 years.

 

[Cloud Cover]

The capability that the Mistral's (or something similar) would really state that "Canada's Back!". With climate change and the threat to coastal populations the deployments for disaster relief alone would make those platforms invaluable.
Maybe we would be forced to do a REAL assessment on what our defence focus should be and maybe it is at the cost of the army and more maritime focus is where this nation can make a real difference. Do we really need the amount of army that we have? Would it not make sense to move some/most/all of those assets to the Navy and Air Force?

But making that kind of decision would take a government that was aware/involved/engaged/GAF about the defence of Canada instead flopping about making empty platitudes about peacekeeping/diversity/social engineering.

I do not have any faith whatsoever that climate change and threats to coastal regions will force any government that ever holds power in Canada to buy LPH platforms with amphibious assault capability. The last few words of your post are, in my opinion, the most likely path to be taken over the next 10-15 years, at least until the Sun God retires or The Resistance takes over. I further do not have any faith that even if another country was to sail up to our shores and take possession of some territory that is not Vancouver, they would be outraged but even that doesn't mean they would equip the country properly for the warfare necessary to take back the territory (assuming people in 905/416/613/514 area codes would even want it back).

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Defence is not a priority for Canadians and our political leaders have understood that for the last 65 years.

The most concise summary of all this site's threads on procurement/budgets/policy I've seen to date.

Until defence is a priority, funding will go to free wifi on public transit, save spaces and townhalls.  That (Canadians caring about defence/the CAF) will take something like what happened in Paris to happen in Canada, or a Yasen to park itself off Halifax and stop a shipment of the newest iPhones from making it to the Apple store at the Halifax Shopping Center before the next Christmas shopping season.

 

[Cloud Cover]

Something like what happened in Paris would be a police matter and a failure of intelligence services, not one calling for the creation of a huge military force. As for the iPhones, I’m sure Amazon has a fleet of drones ready to attack.

We are way off track.

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Something like what happened in Paris would be a police matter and a failure of intelligence services, not one calling for the creation of a huge military force.

Yes, I am sure the generation that are eating tide pods will understand the difference. 

As for the iPhones, I’m sure Amazon has a fleet of drones ready to attack.

You missed the point;  the average person cares more about the newest iGadget and selfie software - not AORs and naval capabilities.

We are way off track.

Actually, I don't think we are.  We are under-equipped, under-funded and under-supported by the powers that be because their bosses (voters) don't give a shit about defence.  I'd say that is 'on target, fire for effect'.

 

[YZT580]

Actually, I don't think we are.  We are under-equipped, under-funded and under-supported by the powers that be because their bosses (voters) don't give a crap about defence.  I'd say that is 'on target, fire for effect'.

Why should they?  As Orwell brilliantly pointed out, people are conditioned through the press, primarily, but also through listening to the promises of their politicians to think in a programmed manner.  Those who read something other than the Globe and the Star perhaps have a slightly better grasp on world affairs but even then, they won't say anything because those ideas aren't acceptable.  They would happily endorse purchasing a fleet of Mistrals if the flower child came out and said we needed them to help the UN save lives or prevent the Arctic from melting or some other fairy tale AND the press started running stories about how the world needed Canada's contribution.  It isn't that they truly don't care but more that they have been conditioned to not care.  Check the archives on positive military stories: there are very few.  The only exception was when Lewis Mackenzie did his thing after Yugoslavia fell apart

 

[Eye In The Sky]

Strongly agree.  :nod: