Alleged PMO obstruction in SNC Lavalin case

[TCM621]

One thing jumped out at me while reading a new story on Butts' testimony. According to the National Post, Butts remarked, " ask you whether or not that is in keeping with my character to do such a thing".

Recently, I was listening to Dr. Phil on Joe Rogan's podcast. For those who don't know, before Dr. Phil became a TV celebrity he worked in litigation as a consultant, often on deception detection. This is actually how he met Oprah. He mentioned that a common theme of people who are lying is to appeal to their character, "You know me, does that sound like me?". This isn't definitive by any stretch of the imagination but it is more food for thought.

Personally, the fact he was a big part of the McGuinty government as his principal secretary doesn't speak well of his character.

 

[Cloud Cover]

Listening to Wernick speak, I'm starting to think that the role of the AG is not the only role that needs critical review for independence.

 

[Fishbone Jones]

Butts is the architect of Ontario's Green Energy Plan. He hailed himself far and wide as the single, most important guy that made it happen, all by himself.

Until it started coming apart, then he blamed everyone else and stopped taking credit.

 

[Cloud Cover]

He's definitely the guy most responsible for ruining the rural landscape of Ontario by saturating farmland with grotesque orchards of windmills.

 

[Bruce Monkhouse]

He's definitely the guy most responsible for ruining the rural landscape of Ontario by saturating farmland with grotesque orchards of windmills.

And they are grotesque....driving up Highway 10 to Shelburne is a visual nightmare.

 

[Kirkhill]

Wernick -

...Like the former Minister, I have sought legal advice about what I can and cannot say today. I have been advised not to opine on the Minister’s reasoning or state of mind because some of the issues are or will be before the Courts.

Is anybody aware of any information in the public domain to suggest that this matter is or will be before the Courts?  Do I hear an echo of the PM's pronouncements prior to the VAdm Norman case?

Finally, the Committee may wish to hold hearings on the Attorney General of Canada’s Directive on Civil Litigation Involving Indigenous Peoples, issued by the former Attorney General on January 11, 2019. The Directive to all Government of Canada litigators could mark a profound change in Canada’s legal landscape. However, it could be repealed or gutted at the stroke of a pen and turn to ashes. All political parties now need to be clear with Canadians on the future of this Directive.

I don't sense any overt threat there, nor any personal animus, "Jus' business!"

 

[Kirkhill]

I am enjoying the evolution of the word "truth".

There is "Truth" and there is "perception and opinion".  Who and what are you going to believe?

Experts or the court of public opinion.

 

[Czech_pivo]

And they are grotesque....driving up Highway 10 to Shelburne is a visual nightmare.

Try driving west of Chatham into Windsor.....its hard enough going back to Windsor, the dozens of windmills as far as the eye can see along the 401 doesn't make it any easier.....

 

[The Bread Guy]

Is anybody aware of any information in the public domain to suggest that this matter is or will be before the Courts?

Well, SNC's lawyered up, JWR's lawyered up, and it sounds like a final decision hasn't been made re:  SNC's prosecution, so maybe he meant "could be in the courts".  Or his legal beagles are being cautious in their advice to him.  Or who knows what civil litigation lurks hinted at in the background?
op:

 

[Kirkhill]

Well, SNC's lawyered up, JWR's lawyered up, and it sounds like a final decision hasn't been made re:  SNC's prosecution, so maybe he meant "could be in the courts".  Or his legal beagles are being cautious in their advice to him.  Or who knows what civil litigation lurks hinted at in the background?
op:

Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men? The Shadow knows.

  ;D ;D ;D

 

[Kirkhill]

Joking aside, I wonder if the Good Clerk is getting his cases confused....

Vice-Admiral Mark Norman's lawyer is threatening to call Gerald Butts and Privy Council clerk Michael Wernick to testify in open court if they don't produce a series of documents that she says are essential to defend her client.

Lawyer Marie Henein issued the ultimatum during a brief pre-trial hearing on Wednesday even as Butts, who recently resigned as Prime Minister Justin Trudeau's top aide, was testifying before a House of Commons committee on the SNC-Lavalin affair.

Henein noted that she has been fighting since October for records from the Prime Minister's Office and the Privy Council Office, including with subpoenas last month for Trudeau's, Butts's and Wernick's emails, BlackBerry messages and other communications.

https://www.ctvnews.ca/canada/vice-admiral-mark-norman-s-lawyer-threatens-to-call-butts-wernick-to-stand-1.4324614

Curious how hard it has been for the Mr. Butts to recover information on the Norman case vs how quickly he has been able to recover information on the Lavalin case.

Mercedes Stephenson
‏
Verified account

@MercedesGlobal
5h5 hours ago
More
Raitt: asks how Butts was able to review his texts if he doesn't have his govt phone any more.
Butts: his legal counsel obtained the texts
#cdnpoli #SNCLavalin #JUST

Mercedes Stephenson
‏
Verified account

@MercedesGlobal
Following Following @MercedesGlobal
More
Raitt: I'm asking how if you gave up your phone when you left the PMO that you still had access to the phone to receive the texts. If you didn't have access who picked the texts for you to receive and look at? #cdnpoli #SNCLavalin #JUST

Mercedes Stephenson
‏
Verified account

@MercedesGlobal
Following Following @MercedesGlobal
More
Raitt: asks how Butts was able to review his texts if he doesn't have his govt phone any more.
Butts: his legal counsel obtained the texts
#cdnpoli #SNCLavalin #JUST

Apparently Butts's legal counsel is the Liberal Party counsel.

Mercedes Stephenson Retweeted

David Akin 
‏
Verified account

@davidakin
4h4 hours ago
More
In the #JUST committee room, Butts just leaned back and a quick word with #LPC lawyer Michael Fenrick. So I think one could assume that Fenrick is also counsel for Butts in this matter. #cdnpoli

Mercedes Stephenson Retweeted

David Akin 
‏
Verified account

@davidakin
4h4 hours ago
More
After consulting with the #LPC counsel sitting behind him at #JUST, Butts tells @lraitt that all of the personal texts he is in possession of that he made on his govt smartphone have been read into the record.

 

[The Bread Guy]

Joking aside, I wonder if the Good Clerk is getting his cases confused....

You only JUST beat me to sharing the TorSun version of this one  :rofl:

Apparently Butts's legal counsel is the Liberal Party counsel.

Political position = political cover

 

[dapaterson]

I am, at heart, a seven year old.  Thus every time I read the name of the individual who resigned, my mind always goes to the same place.

 

[dapaterson]

Jen Gerson has a wonderful opinion piece in the NY Times

There is a particularly quaint element to Canada — our smallness, our politeness, our insularity — that makes many people, including many Canadians, assume the best about our country and ourselves. As if these qualities make us inherently purer than other, more populous countries.

It’s true that Canadians are a trusting, generous lot who generally believe in the greater good, institutions and the rule of law. Consequently, the country is prone to imagining itself more bound by a mythology of its own goodness than it actually is. But there’s a darker side to Canada’s smallness. Our tiny network of political, business and intellectual elite is insular and concentrated.

The scandal now enveloping Prime Minister Justin Trudeau — a bilingual, feminist, pro-multicultural liberal who embodies much of what we like to celebrate in our national character — should put an end to this.

...

The rule of law is a very grand Canadian virtue until, it seems, it proves to be a barrier to Liberal electoral prospects in Quebec. It is a small country, after all.

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/06/opinion/canada-scandal-justin-trudeau.html

 

[Kirkhill]

Other curiousities from today

Vassy Kapelos
‏
Verified account

@VassyKapelos
Following Following @VassyKapelos
More
Raitt is questioning why Wernick took Kevin Lynch's call (now chairman of SNC board, former clerk of the Privy Council) #cdnpoli

12:29 PM - 6 Mar 2019

Vassy Kapelos Retweeted

Steven Chase
‏
Verified account

@stevenchase
4h4 hours ago
More
Replying to @janycemcgregor @VassyKapelos
Here is the October 9 letter. DPP staffer Richard Roy reminds SNC-Lavalin that ”her decision” — meaning Kathleen Roussel’s — was communicated September 4 and all the DPP is doing in the face of a volley of SNC communications is saying they continue to be of this view.

Apparently JWR's testimony is that she communicated her decision on the SNC matter, closing the file in her mind, on Sept 17 in conversation with the Prime Minister.

Judging from Butts's testimony the PM failed to communicate the decision to his Clerk or the PMO

Vassy Kapelos
‏
Verified account

@VassyKapelos
5h5 hours ago
More
I'm (Edit - Vassy Kapelos) re-looking at JWR's opening statement to find out if/when she communicated her (Edit - JWR) decision. She (Edit - JWR) says on Sept 17 she met with PM "I told him that I had done my due diligence, and made up my mind on SNC and that I was not going to interfere with the decision of the DPP"

In my view Drouin's testimony marches with JWR's


Vassy Kapelos Twitter Feed Summary


Drouin says she talked to JWR by phone on Sept 5, SNC discussed on the margins. Agreed dept would provide advice on role of AG in this matter. #cdnpoli

Drouin says she provided this advice. Says it would be very important for the AG to be comfortable with the DPP's decision. AG entitled to receive as much info as necessary from the DPP.

Drouin says she spoke with DM of Finance, who had questions about role of AG. Drouin says she provided draft opinion to AG's office Sept 8th.

Drouin says first face to face meeting with JWR was Sept 17, later she says on Sept 18 they debrief JWR convo with PM. JWR tells Drouin she's uncomfortable with content of conversation.

Drouin: after Sept 19, I didn't have any further involvement on file with JWR and staff. 2 exceptions: Oct 19: judicial review of DPP decision filed, near end of Oct Privy Council office asked for dept advice on impact of SNC if DPA not pursued - advice not provided bc minister


[/quote]

 

[Kirkhill]

So

Sept 4 - DPP Roussel informs retired SCC Justice Iacobucci, acting for SNC-Lavalin of her decision on a Deferred Prosecution Agreement

Sept 5 - AG/Justice Minister JWR mentions the SNC-Lavalin issue to her DM of Justice, Drouin in a telephone call about other matters.  JWR requests advice on her role as AG in this matter and DM agrees to have that advice supplied.  DM of Finance Paul Rochon (?) "who had questions about role of AG".

Sept 8 - DM Justice Drouin provides draft opinion on AG's SNC role to AG JWR

Sept 17 - (Busy Day)
            - DM Drouin has first face to face with AG JWR on SNC
            - AG JWR informs PM Trudeau of her decision to stand behind her DPP Roussel.
            - SNC sends letter to office of DPP Roussel

Sept 18 - AG JWR and DM Drouin meet and discuss the Sept 17 meeting between AG JWR and PM Trudeau (Edit - Clerk of PCO Wernick in attendance).  JWR informs Drouin she was uncomfortable with the conversation with the PM.
            - SNC emails the office of DPP Roussel

Sept 19 - (My sense is that as of this date AG JWR and her department considered the matter closed)  Edit - AG JWR informs her DM Drouin that she had just had a discussion with Wernick, the matter was closed and not to discuss the matter with the DPP.

Sept 27 - Iacobucci, on behalf of SNC, submits additional documentation to the office of DPP Roussel

Oct 1 - Quebec Provincial Election

Oct 9 - Office of the DPP rejects SNC requests for face-to-face between the DPP and the CEO of SNC and informs SNC that the prosecution will proceed to preliminary inquiry on Oct 29

Oct 19 - Judicial Review of DPP decision filed

Oct 29 - SNC preliminary enquiry scheduled.

"near end of Oct" - "Privy Council office (Wernick)  asked for dept advice on impact of SNC if DPA not pursued"
                        - "advice not provided bc (because of) minister (AG JWR - aka Minister of Justice"





 

 

[Jarnhamar]

Not putting Butts under oath

I wouldn't expect anything less from PM Trudeau and the PMO  :rofl:

It's such a shit show. You'd have to be willfully ignorant or daft not to see exactly whats going on. I bet the Liberals are being just as unethical with the Norman case.

 

[Loachman]

Listening to Wernick speak, I'm starting to think that the role of the AG is not the only role that needs critical review for independence.

Somewhere in the myriad posted articles, there is mention of this problem.

I believe that he is covering off three jobs, at least two of which, and possibly all three, are in conflict and really need to be separated.

Clerk of the Privy Council is one, Public Service boss is another, can't remember the third.

 

[Kirkhill]

Somewhere in the myriad posted articles, there is mention of this problem.

I believe that he is covering off three jobs, at least two of which, and possibly all three, are in conflict and really need to be separated.

Clerk of the Privy Council is one, Public Service boss is another, can't remember the third.

Deputy Minister to the Prime Minister?

A further indication of the wind turning:  Trudeau has lost Neil MacDonald

...He and his ministers are capable of answering nearly any question with some vow of support for "the middle class and those who are working so hard to join it," an annoyingly meaningless phrase that's become a banner for his government.

In any case, this verbal porridge, delivered with a serene smile, has carried him along. Until now.

With his government sinking into a self-inflicted crisis, it's beginning to appear that Justin Trudeau simply doesn't have the intellectual acuity to cope....

And meanwhile -  in the curiousities file:

Michael Wernick on wearing a wire....

In his second appearance before the committee, Mr Wernick denied the accusation: "I made no threats to the attorney general, period."

But when pressed on whether he said things to her like "(Mr Trudeau) will find a way to get it done one way or another", Mr Wernick said he could not recall.

"I wasn't wearing a wire," he said by way of explanation.

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-us-canada-47409909

The response was considered laughably disrespectful by the Committee

 

[observor 69]

I wouldn't expect anything less from PM Trudeau and the PMO  :rofl:

It's such a crap show. You'd have to be willfully ignorant or daft not to see exactly whats going on. I bet the Liberals are being just as unethical with the Norman case.

"Before beginning to speak, the Liberal majority on the committee voted down a Conservative motion for Butts to be sworn in to testify under oath.

Conservative MP Michael Cooper tried in vain to have Butts sworn in, but he was told the committee had spoken.

“I will tell the truth,” Butts told the committee as he started his opening statement."

https://nationalpost.com/pmn/news-pmn/canada-news-pmn/the-latest-butts-wernick-testify-at-justice-committee-on-snc-lavalin-affair